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Author Topic: ST vs LT tires  (Read 24058 times)

flagstaff

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ST vs LT tires
« on: November 08, 2012, 04:14:50 PM »
I have seen some tire threads that will sometimes refer to using LT tires on a trailer.

What's the difference and pros and cons?
Rick
2011 Flagstaff Classic 8528CKSS
2007 Tundra w/ airlift load leveler

donn

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2012, 04:21:09 PM »
Man, this has been beat to death over the past six months.
Basically ST tires are all made off shore, typically China and have a very high rate of premature catastrophic failures.  LT tires generally are more readily available at decent prices, have a better speed rating, 99 vs 65MPH, do not have the high failure rates.  For more information use the search function above.

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2012, 09:59:25 PM »
ST tires are rated for trailers only. The side walls are stiff, making them unsuitable for use as steer axle tires but good for trailers. The shortcoming is that they are limited to 65 mph and many of them are of mediocre quality. There are a few good ones - Maxxis is one of te better brands.

LT can get a bit confusing because there are two conflicting uses of the LT designation. One is for High Flotation tires, which are very low pressure and used for offroad mud and sand. Never put those on any on-road vehicle.  The more common LT designation is Light Truck and is intended for pick-up trucks. They have relatively strong sidewalls but still suitable for steering. They also work fine for trailer axles and there are often a wider range of sizes and load ranges available - and at more competitive prices too. LT tires will have a minimum speed rating of 75 mph and some may be rated higher.
Gary
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Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

FastEagle

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2012, 10:27:44 PM »
Other than the speed restriction that Gary has pointed out there is the wide difference in load capacity ratings between the ST and LT tire designs. For instance, the LT235/85R16E has a load capacity of 3042# at 80 psi whereas the ST235/85R16E has a load capacity of 3640# at 80 psi.

To stay within industry standards when using LT tires to replace ST tires becomes very difficult.

FastEagle 
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donn

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2012, 10:46:55 PM »
Other than the speed restriction that Gary has pointed out there is the wide difference in load capacity ratings between the ST and LT tire designs. For instance, the LT235/85R16E has a load capacity of 3042# at 80 psi whereas the ST235/85R16E has a load capacity of 3640# at 80 psi.

To stay within industry standards when using LT tires to replace ST tires becomes very difficult.

FastEagle

Whats your latest count on ST tire failures FE???

lavarock1210

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2012, 12:19:16 AM »
Whats your latest count on ST tire failures FE???
I have had many LT tire failures.  Close to 5 as far as I can remember.  I have never had a ST tire failure. 
As for trailer use I suspect there is close to a 100 to 1 ratio of ST tires being used to LT tires.  Thus with trailer tire failures I would say a 100 to 1 ratio would be expected.

COMer

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2012, 09:18:48 AM »
What size are your tires?  When I replaced my 15" tires this year, I was not able to find any LT tires made in that size.  At least not where I was which was in FL.  I found some load range E tires in my size and am very happy with them.  I also found some dealers who said that their company policy would not allow them to put LT tires on a trailer.  That was Sam's and they were adamant.  Not sure if that was a nationwide policy or just in FL.
John & Darla
Home near Erie, PA
Spend half the year with Campers on Mission

Foto-n-T

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2012, 10:22:11 AM »
I've used both LT & ST tires.  The main reason I purchased LT's was that the tread depth is slightly greater and since we travel a lot my reasoning was that they wouldn't wear out as soon, maybe I was right, maybe not.  I was quite happy with the LT's but as Fast Eagle stated, the load carrying capacity is vastly different.  If you find LT's that suit your price range make sure that they are well within the load carrying capability that you want.  For instance if you have D rated tires right now and find E rated LT's then you should be fine.  But if your present ST tires are right up against their load rating then the LT's are not going to be up to the job.

All the noise about Chinese tires being prone to failure isn't something that I pay a lot of attention to.  I'd rather purchase USA made tires mainly because I'd rather promote my own country and its workers.  Sadly that's not such an easy thing to do these days.  Currently we're running Goodyear Marathons (6 wheel positions) and I'm quite impressed with them.  They're ST tires and after running them just over 20k miles they appear to have at least 50% tread wear left on them.

As far as the arguement that ST's are designed to sit still longer and have higher UV protection that vehicle tires, I'm not convinced.  If Fast Eagle would chime back in on this I'd like to hear his opinion.
Joe

2008 Victory Lane
1998 Freightliner FL50
Cody, WY when it's not covered in ice.

BruceinFL

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2012, 10:50:15 AM »
ST tires are rated for trailers only. The side walls are stiff, making them unsuitable for use as steer axle tires but good for trailers. The shortcoming is that they are limited to 65 mph and many of them are of mediocre quality. There are a few good ones - Maxxis is one of te better brands.

Goodyear G614 tires are ST (trailer tires) and are rated for 75 mph. They only come in one size (LT235/85R16) and are Load Range G tires.
Bruce A.
2004 Alpenlite Valhalla 29RK 5W
2005 Ford F-350 SRW 6.0L

cva61

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2012, 11:34:04 AM »
Looked at the Goodyear site and they list the G614 as an LT tire.  Even the designiation listed by BruceinFL says its a LT tire not a ST as indicated in the post.
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Jammer

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2012, 12:11:34 PM »
I have seen some tire threads that will sometimes refer to using LT tires on a trailer.

What's the difference and pros and cons?

It's a controversial topic.

The best information I have been able to find, based primarily on posts from an engineer who worked for several major tire manufacturers during a career spanning over 40 years, is that there are very few differences between LT and ST tires of the same size and ply rating.  The main physical difference is a slightly shallower tread to provide better cooling when new, and the tread patterns themselves differ slightly.

ST tires carry higher load ratings, and lower speed ratings, than LT tires of the same size.  This is supposed to be because of differences in intended use.  The load ratings haven't been updated since the early 1970s and are for the most part based on a short-distance, occasional-use model that hasn't really applied since the 1950s and maybe didn't even apply back then.  One of the few things that people on RV forums can agree upon regarding tires is that ST tires, run at their maximum load for extended periods, fail.

People trying to switch to LT tires find that they have trouble getting ones that have high enough load ratings, and so in most cases they switch to larger rims and larger tires.  Well, if you switch to larger rims and larger tires, you'll have better luck with your tires whether you use LT or ST tires, just because the tires have more inherent capacity, so the success people have with LT tire conversions doesn't have anything to do with the LT tire.  They could have switched to a larger ST tire and had the same results.

Broadly speaking, LT tires are made in larger quantities and therefore in newer production facilities while ST tires, being a specialty item, tend to be produced in smaller and older production facilities.  I suppose we could speculate that the quality might be a little more uneven with ST tires as a result.

But the thing to watch is that 16" LT tires aren't produced in the quantities they once were, and will become obsolete relatively soon, because new production trucks have all switched to 17" and larger rims.  So the usual 16" rim and LT tire conversion may, in the long term, require a specialty low-volume tire anyway.
2004 Suburban 2500 4wd 8.1 / 2010 Airstream Classic 30' /
1997 K2500 regular cab long bed pickup / 1971 Cayo C-11

Opontee

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2012, 12:30:37 PM »
I have had many LT tire failures.  Close to 5 as far as I can remember.  I have never had a ST tire failure. 

Lucky you. I had 2 ST tires on my 48' Haulmark racecar trailer blowout in 1.5 years. Moved to LT and never had a problem. Of course the ST were cheap China tires.
Waiting on time so I can buy a R.V.

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2012, 01:57:10 PM »
Quote
When I replaced my 15" tires this year, I was not able to find any LT tires made in that size.

You won't find much  choice of sizes and loads in LT tires unless you can use the 16" size.

You will have to choose a fairly high Load Range model to get equivalent carrying capacity to an ST.  Obviously, anytime you buy a tire you need to have the correct load range (carrying capacity) for your axle weights. All bets are off otherwise.

Quote
I also found some dealers who said that their company policy would not allow them to put LT tires on a trailer.  That was Sam's and they were adamant.

That's why I mentioned the confusion about "high flotation" vs Light Truck numeric in the LT designation. That's what's behind this issue. They are talking about the high floatation LTs but their policy just says "LT", without distinguishing.  On a high flotation tire, the LT will be at the trailing end rather than the beginning of the size, and the first number will typically be tire diameter (e.g. 33R16) rather than the tread width. Maybe the big companies can't afford the chance that a clerk or tire tech will mistake one for the other.
Gary
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Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

longhaul

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2012, 08:54:37 PM »
I have seen some tire threads that will sometimes refer to using LT tires on a trailer.

What's the difference and pros and cons?
  Wow. Its a big subject.
 In the beginning all we had to use on trailers were  various sizes of 12"/13"/14" passenger and 14"/15"/16" truck tires. The P or passenger tires back then had a 32 psi max which made them suspect to the tires bead breaking loose while going around corners.  Thats where the truck (todays LT) tires came in as they had more carcass plies and higher pressures.  Many folks didn't like the high cost of a truck tire at repacement time as in many cases the tire life expired before the tire wore out.

 Enter the ST tire with its lower cost, than the LT tire, but its weight carrying performance was superior to the P tire.  The ST has a 3-5 year life recommendation vs seven for the LT.  Back then all ST tires were made in the USA and yes we had the same issues as we do many years later with the china made ST tires.

 The  LT has a tread depth up to 16 or 17/32nd in some cases vs 9 to 11/32" for the ST. The thicker tread allows the tires carcass to sit farther away from the road surface = a cooler running carcass. One thing I found when running equipment trailers 24/7 making a living was a tire close to the tread wear indicators ran much hotter than the tires with the thicker threads. 

 The LT235/85-16 E may weigh 46 lbs vs the ST235/80-16" E at 34-36 lbs. That says volumes to the savy trailer owner looking for the best long term reliable tire for a trailer.

 The LT235/85-16 E XPS Ribs are recommended for commercial trailer service by Michelin (and weighs 56 lbs). No ST tire has ever had that kind of a recommendation.

 Many RV trailers come OEM with LT tires or were a upgrade option.  LTs in a trailer position is nothing new. Just lots of new people to the trailering world.

 
 

 

BruceinFL

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2012, 09:10:12 PM »
Looked at the Goodyear site and they list the G614 as an LT tire.  Even the designiation listed by BruceinFL says its a LT tire not a ST as indicated in the post.

According to Goodyear, the G614 RST is a trailer tire even though it has a LT designation. This was confirmed by the Goodyear rep at the Daytona GS Rally. Check the website here: http://www.goodyear.com/cfmx/web/truck/line.cfm?prodline=160007
Bruce A.
2004 Alpenlite Valhalla 29RK 5W
2005 Ford F-350 SRW 6.0L

donn

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2012, 05:33:11 PM »
According to Goodyear, the G614 RST is a trailer tire even though it has a LT designation. This was confirmed by the Goodyear rep at the Daytona GS Rally. Check the website here: http://www.goodyear.com/cfmx/web/truck/line.cfm?prodline=160007

Is or can be used?  There is a hugh difference.  LT designation means they can also be used all position on a Light Truck!  Same for Michelin XPS Ribs.  ST tires are a low priced alternative designed for ONLY trailer service.  Lots of people claim stiffer side walls and all sorts of things attributed to ST tires.  Most of which are untrue.  Heat and speed are their biggest killers.  But since most interstate freeways have at least a 65 MPH and in some cases much higher speed limits people tent to drag their trailers at the speed limit as they are in a hurry to get camping.  Those ST tires once they,go over that 65 MPH speed limiter start to over heat.  May not be this trip, but sooner or later they,will be killed, often times with dramatic results.  So if the option is there, ie 16 inch wheels, then in the real world a LT tire with a 99 MPH speed rating is a much better choice.  There are a few people who claim the ST tire is superior or the only thing you can run citing some obscure or non existent regulations.  Sme of those people have if you can get,them to admit it, blown many many ST tires.  Your choice as always to do what you want but there is no way I will ever have a ST tire under any trailer I ever own again.

flagstaff

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2012, 08:13:02 AM »
Wow,thanks for all the posts.  That was a great primer on the subject.
 Current tires are 225/75-15 and am not really interested in going to bigger wheels.

That info about the load carrying capacity was an issue I may not have considered - being one of those sorta newbies.

Again thanks. 
Rick
2011 Flagstaff Classic 8528CKSS
2007 Tundra w/ airlift load leveler

COMer

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2012, 08:18:19 AM »
Sounds like you are going through about the same job I did.  I found no 15" LTs so it made the job easier.  I found STs with a load range E and am quite happy with them.  Plenty of weight capacity and not being able to run 99MPH on the interstates does not limit me that much.  I even have a sister to the Flagstaff (Rockwood) and enjoy it.  Except when tires blow.  But hopefully I am good for awhile now.  Good luck with your decision and your new tires.
John & Darla
Home near Erie, PA
Spend half the year with Campers on Mission

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2012, 09:16:05 AM »
Maxxis makes an ST  225/75R15 and their track record is excellent. At least one of the Maxxis models in that size has an "R" speed rating (106 mph).

Be careful of the speed rating on ST tires - many are rated for only 65 mph. You want a speed index of at least "L" (75 mph) and preferably higher (alphabetically higher letters indicate greater speed). Here is a list of the speed rating codes on the tire sidewall:
http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoSpeedRating.dos
Gary
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Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

flagstaff

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2012, 09:44:09 AM »
Saw good article at rvingwithmarkpolk.com on st vs lt tires.
Rick
2011 Flagstaff Classic 8528CKSS
2007 Tundra w/ airlift load leveler

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2012, 04:24:18 PM »
Gary
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Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

warsw

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2012, 05:02:54 PM »
Maxxis makes an ST  225/75R15 and their track record is excellent. At least one of the Maxxis models in that size has an "R" speed rating (106 mph).

Be careful of the speed rating on ST tires - many are rated for only 65 mph. You want a speed index of at least "L" (75 mph) and preferably higher (alphabetically higher letters indicate greater speed). Here is a list of the speed rating codes on the tire sidewall:
http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoSpeedRating.dos
Good stuff. Thanks Gary.
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warsw

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2012, 05:26:30 PM »
2016 Ram 2500 4x4 CCSB CTD
2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee (EcoDiesel)
2016 33' Surveyor 5th/W

Foto-n-T

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2012, 11:12:53 AM »
Although I don't always agree with Mark Polk I think he's spot on with this one.
Joe

2008 Victory Lane
1998 Freightliner FL50
Cody, WY when it's not covered in ice.

longhaul

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2012, 10:53:30 PM »
I don't know what his experience with using ST or LT tires on a heavy trailer has been or how many years and miles he has towed a trailer but not much I would agree with  on his ST vs LT blog that I read. He basically parroted ST manufacturers advertising  and added his  opinion.

 I could make a list of disagreements but this one is where he lost any credibility IMO for serious ST vs LT tire debates.

  Mark says;
 
"In a nutshell most trailer tire blowouts are not a result of ‘bad or inferior’ tires, they are a result of one or more of the following conditions."


 This is the same thing some tire dealers/makers tell us when were prorating one of their blown/ruined tires. Same thing Ford and Firestone told my SIL ( and hundreds of others) when she lost the treads on her Firestone tires on her Explorer.  Therer are defective tires out here.

 IMO the ST has a design issue as we had the same issues with them when they were all made in the USA. The only thing different is their made across the pond now and lots of new folks the last 5-10 years to the towing world that look at them as the norm.
Edit: Removed excessive white space.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 12:47:21 PM by Tom »

Foto-n-T

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2012, 08:46:53 AM »
@longhaul,

When my wife and I first started RVing a little over ten years ago I was extremely concerned with NOT making expensive mistakes so I asked a BUNCH of questions to just about anybody who'd stand still long enough to hear them.  A few of the questions I asked dozens of times before I became satisfied with the results: 

Q.  Do you know how much air pressure is in your tires right now?
A. most of the time:  Anywhere from 30psi to 60psi (nobody I talked to ran 80psi in E rated tires).

Q. How fast do you tow?
A.  Typically most responded that they drove 70-80mph.

Q. Ever have any problems?
A. I blow a tire once in a while. (DUH!!)

My research was of course extremely non-scientific.  Keep in mind that folks who are reading this forum are the ones who actually take the time to learn about what they're doing and I'd venture to guess that the ones Mark Polk has the most experience with aren't really too well informed about what they're doing in an RV.  If that weren't the case then he'd have a hard time staying in business.

Now there was a time that I felt that the ST designation was simply a marketing ploy but I've changed my mind in that regard over the years.  I have run LT tires on 5th wheels and have done so with very good success but since our latest rig has 15" wheels I don't have a lot of choice.  Granted the tire industry has had some "issues" over the years but all in all I think that modern ST tires are truly better suited to trailer service than the LT's.  Keep in mind that for the most part, once the tires get put on they get ignored more often than not.  Things like balance and rotation intervals are virtually non-existant even if pressure checks are done regularly.
Joe

2008 Victory Lane
1998 Freightliner FL50
Cody, WY when it's not covered in ice.

Mopar1973Man

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2012, 05:18:04 PM »
I could turn this thread up-side-down with what I know about ST Tires but I remain quiet. 

Quote
Q.  Do you know how much air pressure is in your tires right now?

I check both the truck and trailer before any trip.

Quote
Q. How fast do you tow?

No faster than 55 MPH.

Quote
Q. Ever have any problems?

Never. I never experienced a tire blow out in any vehicle yet. Yes. I've had my fair share of tire flats but violent highway blowout... No. Never.
Mopar1973Man (AKA: Michael Nelson) located out in the state of Idaho with...
2002 Dodge Ram 2500 5.9L Cummins Turbo Diesel
2000 Jayco Eagle FBS 296
2013 BigTex 70TV Utility Trailer

longhaul

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2012, 05:24:09 PM »
Hi Joe,
 I've based my opinion on ST tires from having several sizes of equipment trailers on the road  for a number of years starting in the '70s to make a living. These trailers ranged from 7k cargo trailers with tandam 3500 lbs axles carrying tools up to a 20k tandam dually tire trailer with two 10k axles. I also ran three different tri axle trailers all with 15" and 16" tires and wheels and LT tires.

  My issues with ST tires came close to ruining my construction business till a Goodyear truck tire dealer advised me to dump my ST tires and go with all 15" and 16" LT tires. I had five trailers on the road 24/7 running materials and equipment to different off road job sites in a eight state area.  That move alone cut downtime on the side of the road, changing ruined ST tires,  for my drivers and myself  by 90 percent.  LOL we even carried two spares on each trailer. Now thats bad.

 My current 5er came with new ST225/75-15 D Marathons.  As you might guess I don't use ST tires  :D  so I dumped the new Marathons for 16" wheels and LT215/85-16 E tires. Ran them for over seven years and 55k miles and now have 22k miles on the second set. This is my 3rd 5th wheel trailer since '84 and I always dump the ST tires and go with a LT.  I simply don't have tire issues at any speeds.
 

 

FastEagle

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2012, 06:09:00 PM »

 My current 5er came with new ST225/75-15 D Marathons.  As you might guess I don't use ST tires  :D  so I dumped the new Marathons for 16" wheels and LT215/85-16 E tires. Ran them for over seven years and 55k miles and now have 22k miles on the second set. This is my 3rd 5th wheel trailer since '84 and I always dump the ST tires and go with a LT.  I simply don't have tire issues at any speeds.

Your situation is much different when compared to the choices those with other axle configurations might run into.

The mechanics of your trailer’s configuration are all plus factors for you and your tire upgrade. The LT tire gives you a nice increase in load capacity over the OE tires. You have the added advantage of a faster highway speed rating and .4” of tread depth to provide more mileage over the ST tire.

I do not print this to disagree with anything you have done. On the contrary, I print it to reinforce the option you have taken and how successful it can be when properly applied.

FastEagle   
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Foto-n-T

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2012, 06:40:32 PM »
Exactly, excellent point: "Properly Applied"

Keep I'm mind, those of us on this forum (including you reading this) are here to learn as well as share our experience. Believe me, we're the minority in the RVing world, there's a whole bunch of folks out there that just "git in and go."

Like I stated above, I've run LT tires before and had mo issues in my application. But but if the average "Joe" were to install them on a unit that was running right up against the weight rating of an ST he might find himself replacing torn up skirting or worse.

I understand the mindset of the vacationer in a hurry to get there but if running ST or LT tires for that matter we really need to arm ourselves with all available information and refrain from becoming "test pilots" if you will.

The difference between ignorance & stupidity is that ignorance can be cured. I've been trying to cure mine for over five decades now and in reality sometimes I don't think I'm much closer than when I started.
Joe

2008 Victory Lane
1998 Freightliner FL50
Cody, WY when it's not covered in ice.

BruceinFL

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #30 on: November 14, 2012, 08:42:29 PM »
It's confusing with the Goodyear G614 RST tires. They have an LT designation but Goodyear and tire dealers market them as trailer tires. 
Bruce A.
2004 Alpenlite Valhalla 29RK 5W
2005 Ford F-350 SRW 6.0L

cpaulsen

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2012, 07:55:09 AM »
ST tires are rated for trailers only. The side walls are stiff, making them unsuitable for use as steer axle tires but good for trailers. The shortcoming is that they are limited to 65 mph and many of them are of mediocre quality. There are a few good ones - Maxxis is one of te better brands.

LT can get a bit confusing because there are two conflicting uses of the LT designation. One is for High Flotation tires, which are very low pressure and used for offroad mud and sand. Never put those on any on-road vehicle.  The more common LT designation is Light Truck and is intended for pick-up trucks. They have relatively strong sidewalls but still suitable for steering. They also work fine for trailer axles and there are often a wider range of sizes and load ranges available - and at more competitive prices too. LT tires will have a minimum speed rating of 75 mph and some may be rated higher.

And Goodyear,Firestone and a lot of other makers have their tires made overseas and it just the ST tires.
2008 Ford F250/CC/SB/V-10/2018 Montana 330RL

donn

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2012, 09:52:15 AM »
Tires made oversees are not necessarily all bad.  Take Hankook tires as an example.  They are made in Korea and have a very good reputation for quality and durability.  Maxxis is another tire made off shore, and is probably the only ST tire made with a decent reputation.  But for the long haul with a relatively heavy trailer than came OE or is being upgraded to 16 inch wheels, a decent brand LT tire is far and away a better solution.  Michelin/BFGoodrich, Firestone among others still make their truck tires in the good old USA.

flagstaff

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2012, 03:25:13 PM »
Tires made oversees are not necessarily all bad.  Take Hankook tires as an example.  They are made in Korea and have a very good reputation for quality and durability.  Maxxis is another tire made off shore, and is probably the only ST tire made with a decent reputation.  But for the long haul with a relatively heavy trailer than came OE or is being upgraded to 16 inch wheels, a decent brand LT tire is far and away a better solution.  Michelin/BFGoodrich, Firestone among others still make their truck tires in the good old USA.

I have no other data to support or repute this, but Discount Tire rates Hankook not vey highly.   Maybe they get more margin on other brands?     They recommended the Marathons. 
Rick
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2007 Tundra w/ airlift load leveler

Oderus420

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2018, 01:39:19 PM »
I'm researching this topic as well is this what I found;

ST tires aren't made for traction or steering. They have stronger sidewalls than LT but less grip and rolling resistance. They're common at 15" and 16" while LT tires are much less common at 15" than for 16".

LT tires have a lower max weight capacity than ST.

Most tires are made in China so it's not fair to say all Chinese tires are 'China bombs'.

Majority of issues related to tires are due to user error. Over or under inflated tires, driving too fast or with too much load.

Also, anecdotal evidence from 10+ years ago may no longer be valid as this world changes quickly. Lots of US branded tires are now made in China as well, including non-US brands with high quality ratings like Hankook and Toyo.
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solarman

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2018, 05:43:33 PM »
Maxxis makes an ST  225/75R15 and their track record is excellent. At least one of the Maxxis models in that size has an "R" speed rating (106 mph).

Be careful of the speed rating on ST tires - many are rated for only 65 mph. You want a speed index of at least "L" (75 mph) and preferably higher (alphabetically higher letters indicate greater speed). Here is a list of the speed rating codes on the tire sidewall:
http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoSpeedRating.dos

They also make a range of commercial truck tires under the UE168N Bravo label.
I have been using these for a long time and never had any issue. Also, the smaller 14 inch sizes have a higher load rating than a comparable ST. With my first toy hauler I had a gross limit of 7000 lbs, it was fitted with dual 3500lb axles and 14 in ST tires with 1760lb each ( 7040 lb total ). so basically the tires were running at near max load with no reserve. that was a very bad position to be in. I upgraded the tires to UE168N bravos and netted a 29 percent safety margin.  Every one's situation is different and this worked for me.. I'm sure we will beat this dead horse many more times to no avail..  LOL
Personally, I think the main reason for tire failure is either under inflation or overloading, I've seen both many times on my travels.

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2018, 09:43:41 PM »
It's confusing with the Goodyear G614 RST tires. They have an LT designation but Goodyear and tire dealers market them as trailer tires.
G614 RST is a LT tire but Goodyear says there intended to be used on Regional Service Trailers (RST).
...............................................................

 ST tire information we see posted here comes from ST tire makers and some dealers. Dealers just push the tire makers bilge.
  this from rv.net website by seniorGNC: actual ST vs LT tire testing per FMVSS eliminate much of the myth and half truths passed out by ST tire makers.
 http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/23225970.cfm
........................................................................

 Maxxis ST8008 speed rating ?? This email from Maxxis found in the FR forums;

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Northeast Louisiana
Posts: 11,482
Here is a copy of the email I received yesterday from Maxxis, per my dealer request. (including original spelling)

Bobby,
The spped rating on for the Maxxis M8008 ST Radial is "Q", which is 99 MPH. However, according to the Tire and Rim Association the inflation pressures and load specifications in general for all ST Radial trailer tires, regardless of the manufacturer, are designed and rated at 65 MPH. If the speed is higher than 65 MPH, the pressure and load need to be adjusted according to the following guidelines:
From 66 to 75 MPH – the tire inflation pressure needs to increase 10 PSI (not to exceed the maximum PSI the tire is rated for) but requires no load adjustment.
From 76 to 85 MPH – the tire inflation pressure needs to increase 10 PSI (not to exceed the maximum PSI the tire is rated for) and load should be reduced by 10%.
We hope this information is helpful. Thanks for your email and interest in Maxxis Tires.
Best Regards,
The Maxxis Support Team.....


RGP

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2018, 12:36:30 PM »
As you can tell from the remarks; you can research the LT tire market and find a tread pattern and performance rating you like, some TT manufacturers have done that for some of their selected models. Or, you can use what the tire industry and TT makers recommend and buy ST tires that are designed for trailer service at 65 mph. Some of the newer premium tire are rated for high speeds and their use was being touted at the last RV show we attended.

It is your choice and your money; the rim bending road hazard does not care how much you spent.  :)

Take care



   

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2018, 08:29:26 PM »
I just replaced my tires on my trailer. It came with Westlake ST 23580ER16 LR E  steel belted speed rating 75MPH. These tires have had some problems with blowouts so with less than 1000 miles on my trailer and off they came, The weight of the tire was 42#. Sidewalls were very weak. I was going to have the tires broke down to have metal valve stems installed and balanced so my wife said if I was thinking of changing the tires out anyway just do it now. So I did a lot of research and there has been a lot of people switching over to Sailun 23580R16 LR G ST Steel belted. These tires weigh 55# and have a stiff sidewall Speed rating 75MPH. The Sailubs have been around longer than the Goodyear Endurance tire and a good rep.

So this is the tire I'm going to try out. I don't run 75MPH usually around 60 and run TPMS to keep an eye on temps and pressure. The TPMS was the main reason for metal valve stems. I took them off the the trailer and hauled them down and had them mounted balanced with metal valves (I trust my torque more than a kid wth an air impact wrench). The tire and wheel with Westlakes felt lighter than the Sailun with just the tire.   
Butch

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longhaul

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2018, 09:17:05 PM »
Good choice on the S637 Sailun load G all steel ply carcass commercial grade tires. No much in common with ST E/D/C poly carcass tires.
 These tire first hit the streets in the '10 era as all regional purpose tire with a LT designation. However high tariff rates on P and L T tires were to stiff so Sailun rebranded to a ST tire to get around the tariff thing.  I have six of the LT 235/85-16 G637 on a 36' triaxle GN stock trailer since '11 and no issues at any speed at max weights all day runs. Their a winner.

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2018, 09:15:17 AM »
It is a very simple choice, use the ST tire that the tire industry developed specifically for trailer use. Or, figure out which of the many LT designs not recommended for trailer use, will work in your TT application.

For years some TT owner, wanted a higher performance ST tire. Now they are out their.

longhaul

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2018, 08:30:08 PM »
Quote
Or, figure out which of the many LT designs not recommended for trailer use, will work in your TT application.
OK I'll bit.....why would anyone want to use  one of the many LT designs not recommended for a trailer ??      And which LT tire brands/lines aren't recommended for trailer use by their mfg.
 


welmack

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2018, 09:24:39 PM »
My ST's  (ST205-75/14) show loaded capacity (2 axle) 7040 lbs but my trailer is only about 4400 lbs. Am I to understand that I still run them at the recommended pressure of 50 psi or is there a chart somewhere that shows lower psi ratings for lighter loads?
1999 Ford F-250 XLT, 4X4 Off Road Super Cab w/7.3 4R100 & 3.73 6084#rear axle.
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Amarillo Texas

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2018, 11:15:31 AM »
The tire manufacturer surely has a load/inflation chart, though it may not be readily available. You can search for a "tire data book" for that brand, or you could buy or borrow the Tire Industry  Data Book the Tire & Rubber Manufacturers publish each year (but you might have to buy it).  As a practical matter. almost any other brands inflation table for that size & load range would work well enough. The Tire & Rubber Association standards pretty much dictate that.

However, I would not bother for an ST tire. Run it at its max load psi (50 in your case) and don't worry. There is little to be gained by trying to use a lesser pressure on that size & type of tire.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 10:02:57 AM by Gary RV_Wizard »
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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2018, 11:44:47 AM »
As far as I know, I have never seen and advertisement by any tire company recommending the use of their LT tires for trailer service. I assume they are willing to lose sales instead.

LT's undergo rigorous testing design for the Light Truck environment. Some folks assume this means they are better suited for TT service than STs. Well Indy 500 racing tires also undergo very rigorous testing but I do not see them being recommended for light truck service. 

Admittedly in the past there were a few TT manufacturers that chose LT tire s for some of their selected models, now the GY Endurance seems to be the favorite option.

ST tires tout three notable features for TT use, a stiffer side wall, a tread patter design for lower roll rolling resistance and towing plus specialized rubber compounds developed for TT use.

How much of this is advertising hype is unknown but the fact remains that I have never seen an advertisement for LT tires that said you can use them for both Light Truck and Trailer Service. There my be such an add but they certainly are not common.

The China bomb tire debacle a decade ago did cause quite a stir in the RV circles. However, it did open the door for some of the higher speed rated premium tires now on the market. 

Safe travels
« Last Edit: March 23, 2018, 11:47:14 AM by RGP »

welmack

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2018, 12:43:36 PM »
Thanks Gary, that answers my question. Back in the day we just aired um up till they looked good and took off. I have seen almost all of our wonderful country, but at 77 with inoperable back problems, I may be seeing parts of it for the last time as we travel so I am quite content to amble along at 60 mph with a daily goal of only about 300-325 miles per day. If you don't enjoy it you might as well sit at home. Thanks again.
1999 Ford F-250 XLT, 4X4 Off Road Super Cab w/7.3 4R100 & 3.73 6084#rear axle.
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Amarillo Texas

lone_star_dsl

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #46 on: March 23, 2018, 03:01:37 PM »
As far as I know, I have never seen and advertisement by any tire company recommending the use of their LT tires for trailer service. I assume they are willing to lose sales instead.

LT's undergo rigorous testing design for the Light Truck environment. Some folks assume this means they are better suited for TT service than STs. Well Indy 500 racing tires also undergo very rigorous testing but I do not see them being recommended for light truck service. 

Admittedly in the past there were a few TT manufacturers that chose LT tire s for some of their selected models, now the GY Endurance seems to be the favorite option.

ST tires tout three notable features for TT use, a stiffer side wall, a tread patter design for lower roll rolling resistance and towing plus specialized rubber compounds developed for TT use.

How much of this is advertising hype is unknown but the fact remains that I have never seen an advertisement for LT tires that said you can use them for both Light Truck and Trailer Service. There my be such an add but they certainly are not common.

The China bomb tire debacle a decade ago did cause quite a stir in the RV circles. However, it did open the door for some of the higher speed rated premium tires now on the market. 

Safe travels

Let me provide a retort to your argument. How many pickup trucks do you see on the side of the road with blown out tires vs. the number of trailers with blown out tires? Even with the exponentially higher number of trucks on the road compared to the number of trailers, blowouts of LT tires are very rare. It doesn't take much searching of the forums or Facebook groups to find how prevalent ST blowouts are.

I've ran LT tires on my trailers for 15 years because I was tired of blowouts of ST tires. I have ran them on trailers ranging from 3,500 lb GVW to 24,000 lb GVW with axle variations of single, tandem, tandem dual, and triple. In those 15 years, there have been two tires that have blown out, both due to road debris.

As you mentioned, the testing for LT tires is much more rigorous than ST tires. If ST tires of the current construction and at their advertised capacities were tested with the same methods as LT tires, very few of them would be on the market.

I have hundreds of thousands of miles in the real world comparing LT to ST tires and have found ST tires to be completely unreliable.

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2018, 04:40:09 PM »
There are also LT's installed on some fiver's from the factory.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
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Madcow

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2018, 05:07:06 PM »
Let me provide a retort to your argument. How many pickup trucks do you see on the side of the road with blown out tires vs. the number of trailers with blown out tires? Even with the exponentially higher number of trucks on the road compared to the number of trailers, blowouts of LT tires are very rare. It doesn't take much searching of the forums or Facebook groups to find how prevalent ST blowouts are.

I've ran LT tires on my trailers for 15 years because I was tired of blowouts of ST tires. I have ran them on trailers ranging from 3,500 lb GVW to 24,000 lb GVW with axle variations of single, tandem, tandem dual, and triple. In those 15 years, there have been two tires that have blown out, both due to road debris.

As you mentioned, the testing for LT tires is much more rigorous than ST tires. If ST tires of the current construction and at their advertised capacities were tested with the same methods as LT tires, very few of them would be on the market.

I have hundreds of thousands of miles in the real world comparing LT to ST tires and have found ST tires to be completely unreliable.

Well, we need to be fair about this.  Most LT pickup tires don't sit all winter long like many trailer tires do.  And many times, the fault of most tires is because the user did not maintain them properly or they dry rotted.  And why anyone would pull a 5er or any other trailer down the road at 75 mph is bizarre to me.  So trailers tires are treated to hind tit when it comes to attention, and then drivers want to run them like they are trying to get pole position at Daytona.  I am surprised they don't blow up more often than they do.  Trailer tires are not on the forefront of most people's minds.  They get overlooked more than most people will admit. 

lone_star_dsl

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2018, 05:10:41 PM »
Well, we need to be fair about this.  Most LT pickup tires don't sit all winter long like many trailer tires do.  And many times, the fault of most tires is because the user did not maintain them properly or they dry rotted.  And why anyone would pull a 5er or any other trailer down the road at 75 mph is bizarre to me.  So trailers tires are treated to hind tit when it comes to attention, and then drivers want to run them like they are trying to get pole position at Daytona.  I am surprised they don't blow up more often than they do.  Trailer tires are not on the forefront of most people's minds.  They get overlooked more than most people will admit.

You do have some valid points. On the other hand, the LT tires that I've had on my travel trailers and fifth wheels have sat through the extended winters in Colorado and have adapted to 75 mph towing without incident.

In May of each year, I dewinterize, grease bearings, and check tire pressures. After that, we're off and running.
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Monument, CO

longhaul

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2018, 09:55:55 PM »
One reason we don't see many LT  or P tire makers advertizing a specific LT tire line or P tire line for trailer use is most Americans wouldn't want a trailer tire on their tow vehicle.
 
 ST are popular on rv websites.
 When I was on the road pulling trailers I couldn't afford ST tires. In that type of work we were lucky to get 15k-18k miles before a ST tire came apart or those thin treads/sidewalls were gone.
 With LT on the same trailers we can run them for 50k-80k miles depending on a all steel carcass commercial grade  tire like the 16" XPS Ribs vs a poly carcass tire like the Firestone Transforce HT/others.

 LT tires....ST tires and P tires all have the same FMVSS safety std to pass per NHTSA.  That includes;
  (1) bead unseating resistance,
  (2) strength,
  (3) endurance,
  and (4) high speed performance.

  Read this summary BY SeniorGNC  to see how the ST and LT performed in these tests. http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/23225970.cfm.

 

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #51 on: March 24, 2018, 10:25:26 AM »
An ST tire takes advantage of the restriction "for trailer axles only" to provide a physically stronger tire (greater weight capacity for a given size) than is possible when meeting the LT or P standards for traction and steerability.  That doesn't make it the only choice for trailers, but it's a very cost effective way to get a higher load capability. Along with that, the stiffer sidewalls can be beneficial in resisting the high lateral pressures that are common on trailer axles. However, LT  and P tires get similar lateral forces on the steer axle, so the difference is perhaps not so significant.

I don't see the point in trying to justify one or the other type.  If you can get an LT with an adequate load rating for your trailer axle GAWR, it works fine and you get a higher speed rating than with an ST that does the same job.  If you don't routinely drive at 65 (or more) while towing, the ST type is a fine choice. I think, though, that most owners do pull their trailers at interstate speeds at least some of the time, so the speed rating is something to be concerned about.

Whether the ST tire you buy are decent quality or not seems to me to be a separate issue. Crap tires are crap tires whether built to ST or LT specs. Yeah, a lot of buyers are looking for cheap trailer tires, so low-end ST tires abound. And an ST that can handle a given load will always be less expensive than an LT with the same load rating. That's the main reason the ST type exists. So, if low price is your primary objective, go with ST but stay within its speed constraints.
Gary
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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #52 on: March 24, 2018, 11:19:26 AM »
My intent was not to compare STs to LTs. My intent was to point out that in spite of what we think, hope, wish or opine. The fact is the tire industry recommends ST for trailer use and they do not recommend LTs for trailer service.

Nobody says you have to listen to the expert's, if you have the expertise to choose the correct LT for your application.

Also, I have not seen any credible data from the DOT or other source showing ST tire failure rates to be higher than other tire. If it is out I would like to see the failure rate of P, ST  and LT tires.

Finally, I believe the majority of  pick-up tires are the dreaded "P" tires.

In the end it is an individual choice, we all base our choices on whatever we think is best.

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #53 on: March 24, 2018, 04:28:59 PM »
 Over the past 12-14 years I’ve written numerous posts about this subject. The more I dig into the subject, the more I learn.

The following is a verbatim quote from a NHTSA PDF file that is self describing: “Light truck (LT) tire means a tire designated by its manufacturer as primarily intended for use on lightweight trucks or multipurpose passenger vehicles.”

“ST tire designation: ST stands for Special Trailer tire. ST tires are designed for use on trailer axle positions only. They are not designed for the load or traction requirements of a drive or steering axle. ST tires have strengthened sidewalls to prevent the tire from rolling under the rim in turns and when cornering.”

So, testing those completely different designed tires would be for their performance in their designed functions. Can they safely do the job they were designed for?

Misapplications? It’s often mentioned. Very difficult to explain with few words. It revolves around vehicle certification. That label that many people view in different levels of understanding. It’s the vehicle manufacturer saying they have selected a tire for fitment on a vehicle that is appropriate for that particular fitment. It’s minimum load capacity was set with the vehicle manufactures recommended cold inflation pressure as directed to do so by regulation. Being certified by them it becomes the minimum safety standard for that vehicle. All subsequent replacements need to have qualities and load capacity capabilities equal to the original tires.
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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #54 on: March 24, 2018, 04:34:01 PM »
Quote
My intent was to point out that in spite of what we think, hope, wish or opine. The fact is the tire industry recommends ST for trailer use and they do not recommend LTs for trailer service.

I think you are reading too much into a lack of a specific recommendation for LT use on a trailer.  The tire industry tells us, and RV makers, what a tire is designed to do, what they call an "application".  They intentionally leave it up to the vehicle maker, or the tire buyer in the aftermarket, to decide if a particular tire is suitable for the vehicle and intended usage or not.  I do not believe you will find anywhere a statement that says "Only ST tires are recommended for trailers." If you ask a tire company what to put on a trailer, they will very carefully reply that ST tires are designed for trailer use, but that's not the same thing as only ST tires are usable on trailer.  Nor do they say that only LT tires can be used on light trucks, or that LT tires can only be used on trucks.  In fact, many light trucks come factory equipped with P-series tires, and many trailers come factory equipped with LT tires. This is not in violation of any tire industry guideline or warranty.
Gary
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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #55 on: March 24, 2018, 05:10:33 PM »
They do not say that only LT tires can be used on light trucks, or that LT tires can only be used on trucks.  In fact, many light trucks come factory equipped with P-series tires, and many trailers come factory equipped with LT tires. This is not in violation of any tire industry guideline or warranty.

Very true, but, for original equipment tire fitments the vehicle manufacture has the sole responsibility for the type/design tires fitted to the vehicle. They then must certify those fitments to be appropriate. For the RV trailer industry there are no, after the sale options, unless the vehicle manufacturer identifies them.
 
The vehicle manufacturer has the authority to select any of the DOT certified highway tires for original equipment trailer fitments, even passenger tires.
 
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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #56 on: March 24, 2018, 06:58:37 PM »
Quote
For the RV trailer industry there are no, after the sale options, unless the vehicle manufacturer identifies them.

Not sure what you are trying to say there. I don't know of any vehicle manufacturers  in any industry who identify aftermarket optional tires for their vehicles. At best, you can assume that a factory option tire is probably OK as an aftermarket option, but even that requires the further assumption that all the pertinent vehicle components are the same as well.

After sale options are strictly up to the vehicle owner and to some extent, the tire dealer who agrees to supply & install them.
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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #57 on: March 24, 2018, 11:08:31 PM »
Not sure what you are trying to say there. I don't know of any vehicle manufacturers  in any industry who identify aftermarket optional tires for their vehicles. At best, you can assume that a factory option tire is probably OK as an aftermarket option, but even that requires the further assumption that all the pertinent vehicle components are the same as well.

After sale options are strictly up to the vehicle owner and to some extent, the tire dealer who agrees to supply & install them.

Any well established retail tire establishment will have a list of replacement tires that are suitable and recommended as replacements for almost all automotive vehicles. When it comes to RV trailers they seem to be mystified.
   
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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #58 on: March 25, 2018, 09:57:01 AM »
OK, I get that.   It's the tire dealer's recommendation, not the tire manufacturer or the vehicle manufacturer.  I guess most tire shops don't handle enough RVs, towable or motorhome, to develop their own lists.  Or there are too many variables to make a simple list for their semi-trained store personnel to utilize safely.

There are a few from tire makers, though, basically size substitutions they deem equivalent. For example. Goodyear says their 245/75R22.5 will replace most 235/80R22.5 applications.

https://www.goodyearrvtires.com/size-conversions.aspx
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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2018, 12:21:08 PM »
It's interesting to note that modern towables began being sold with adequate tires for the application about ten years ago. Prior to that we were lucky to have an adequate weight rating on stock tires just to carry "empty" weight. The truth of the matter is, most towable RV owners never come close to actually wearing out their tires. For those of us who do put enough miles on to wear them out we now have adequate choices available. I for one do run ST tires but there was a time when the LT tires were my preffered option.

By the way, if you think ST versus LT tires in the RV world is a box of snakes you ought to see what has been happening in the world of motorcycle tires in the last few years. There's actually a faction out there that call themselves "Dark Siders" who run P tires on heavy bikes like the Goldwing. It seems everyone wants to try and out think the engineer's.
Joe

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Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #60 on: March 25, 2018, 02:50:13 PM »
It's interesting to note that modern towables began being sold with adequate tires for the application about ten years ago. Prior to that we were lucky to have an adequate weight rating on stock tires just to carry "empty" weight. The truth of the matter is, most towable RV owners never come close to actually wearing out their tires. For those of us who do put enough miles on to wear them out we now have adequate choices available. I for one do run ST tires but there was a time when the LT tires were my preffered option.

By the way, if you think ST versus LT tires in the RV world is a box of snakes you ought to see what has been happening in the world of motorcycle tires in the last few years. There's actually a faction out there that call themselves "Dark Siders" who run P tires on heavy bikes like the Goldwing. It seems everyone wants to try and out think the engineer's.

See reference below.

https://members.ustires.org/sites/default/files/Demounting%20and%20Mounting%20Procedures%20for%20Motorcycle%20Tires.pdf
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Foto-n-T

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  • Posts: 1086
    • Foto-n-T.com
Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #61 on: March 25, 2018, 06:07:18 PM »
Thanks but you're preaching to the choir. Motorcycle tires belong on motorcycles.
Joe

2008 Victory Lane
1998 Freightliner FL50
Cody, WY when it's not covered in ice.

longhaul

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  • Posts: 450
Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #62 on: March 25, 2018, 08:32:22 PM »
LOL...beside the OPs thread died way back in '12 and was hijacked/raised from the long dead for some reason and is getting rehashed and beat to death again .....and again...again with much the same bla bla...including my own.  :-[

FastEagle

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  • Posts: 497
    • Down the roads with us
Re: ST vs LT tires
« Reply #63 on: March 25, 2018, 11:20:21 PM »
 ;D
USN RET (PDRL)
DOD RET Journeyman Aircraft Mechanic
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