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Author Topic: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners  (Read 65772 times)

SeilerBird

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #90 on: September 06, 2018, 07:11:19 AM »
Sometimes more advanced folks lose the perspective of what's really needed for beginners (rule of thirds, steadiness, etc.), so perhaps Tom could create another topic pinned next to this one for "Photographic knowledge and tips for advanced photographers" and move portions of this topic into it. Or perhaps there should both a cell phone topic and an advanced topic.
I don't feel the need for another topic for advanced photographers. There are dozens of web sites and blogs that cover the subject much better than I ever could.
I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
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jymbee

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #91 on: September 06, 2018, 11:40:58 AM »
I think any of the dozens of photo specific forums on other sites with vast KBs of information and discussion threads would be a much better place to go for "advanced" discussions. Seems quite satisfactory to me to have a single area here where folks of all levels of photography can go to learn and share information. I've taught a number of photography classes for years-- many with very new amateurs and have never had a class where I didn't learn something myself!  :)

If you're going to take that tack, it should be dedicated camera devices vs cell phones (which are really multifunction pocket computers), but the original purpose of this topic was to aid folks in a very basic understanding of photography for beginners (as the title says), similar to the more simple parts of the Kodak "How To" series, rather than to get into the more advanced topics. Advanced amateurs, semi-pros and pros don't need this topic at all, and those parts should go into a topic for more advanced photography, IMO. Granted there will be a little overlap, but debates over the "best way," "the best camera," or "my favorite procedure" and such should be a separate topic, it seems to me.

Sometimes more advanced folks lose the perspective of what's really needed for beginners (rule of thirds, steadiness, etc.), so perhaps Tom could create another topic pinned next to this one for "Photographic knowledge and tips for advanced photographers" and move portions of this topic into it. Or perhaps there should both a cell phone topic and an advanced topic.
Wandering in our 2012 Fleetwood Bounder 33C Class A

Larry N.

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #92 on: September 06, 2018, 02:38:33 PM »
I don't feel the need for another topic for advanced photographers. There are dozens of web sites and blogs that cover the subject much better than I ever could.
True, Tom, but note that a number of advanced subjects are in this topic. But the main reason I suggested that was the suggestion of one topic for DSLR and one for "cell phone." There are a large number of ways things could be split up, probably none of them needed.
Larry and Mary Ann N.
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MN Blue Skies

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #93 on: September 06, 2018, 07:50:14 PM »
I've taught a number of photography classes for years-- many with very new amateurs and have never had a class where I didn't learn something myself!  :)

Jymbee, do you teach ISO, Aperture, and Shutter Speed (Exposure Triangle) in your photography classes that include new amateurs or do you think that is that too advanced for beginning photographers? 
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jymbee

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #94 on: September 07, 2018, 11:15:19 AM »
Jymbee, do you teach ISO, Aperture, and Shutter Speed (Exposure Triangle) in your photography classes that include new amateurs or do you think that is that too advanced for beginning photographers?

I think at least a basic understanding of these elements is essential to going beyond what you can achieve with simple point & shoot IMO. Having said that, there's nothing wrong at all with not going beyond point & shoot for many picture takers. In those cases  I would just work with them to get them to think more creatively rather than just:

"Stand in front of that statue, SMILE, CLICK".
"Stand in front of that mountain, SMILE, CLICK".  :-)

One of the most fascinating photo classes I've seen while not taught by myself but rather my partner was a photo class for special needs students. These folks were given cameras with not much more instruction than to go out and take some photos. When they turned in the media cards I wasn't actually expecting much but as it turned out I was amazed at many of the images! I would not be surprised if some of them would have placed very high in a photo contest (but don't get me going about photo contests!). Another case of me learning what can be done from the students.  :)

Another time I was attending a convention of professional aerial photographers (I do a lot of aerial work) and one of the featured speakers was a world-renowned aerial photographer. At the conclusion there was a Q&A and many in attendance started asking questions of a pretty technical nature related to his gear & technique. It was quite interesting how many times his answer was simply "I don't know". He just knew how to capture what he wanted. One really doesn't need to get deep into the weeds to produce great images.   :))
Wandering in our 2012 Fleetwood Bounder 33C Class A

jackiemac

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #95 on: September 07, 2018, 09:56:58 PM »

One of the most fascinating photo classes I've seen while not taught by myself but rather my partner was a photo class for special needs students. These folks were given cameras with not much more instruction than to go out and take some photos. When they turned in the media cards I wasn't actually expecting much but as it turned out I was amazed at many of the images! I would not be surprised if some of them would have placed very high in a photo contest (but don't get me going about photo contests!). Another case of me learning what can be done from the students.  :)


A young guy in the UK with Downs Syndrome is making a living doing photography:

https://www.oliverhellowell.com/gallery.php

Everyone has a speciality!
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MN Blue Skies

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #96 on: September 09, 2018, 06:17:29 PM »
A young guy in the UK with Downs Syndrome is making a living doing photography:

https://www.oliverhellowell.com/gallery.php

Everyone has a speciality!

Jackie what a great link.  Inspiring!
A girl called Max, her husband Eric, Miss Kitty, and Miss Molly the Transylvanian Hound.

2013 Cougar High Country 315 RES ( A 35' 5th Wheel)
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harrington63

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #97 on: July 01, 2019, 07:17:01 PM »
@SellerBird - Your post on Photography Tips For Beginners motivated me to join this group; well that and I occasionally look for answers to my rv questions... Anyway I wish I could say in a positive way, but unfortunately I have to disagree with many of your initial "tips."
1. Shooting with the sun directly at the back of your head is NOT how quality images are created. Undressing light patterns and their impact on subject is much more informative. Ideally the sun will be at a 45/45 degree angle. That is 45 degrees elevation and at the 2:00 or 10:00 position. There are also many instances where you may choose to have the sun directly behind the subject or beside it. Basically there are 6 key light patterns: Broad, Short, Loop, Modified Loop, Split and Butterfly. With these patterns the only one that even approaches having the light directly behind the photographer's head is Butterfly (aka Paramount).
2. I am a professional photographer certified by Professional Photographers of America (CPP) and Wedding and Portrait Photographers International (WPPI-C) in addition to holding a BA degree in photography. I have over 25 years experience with professional grade Nikon equipment. I do not know every feature of my cameras, nor do I intend to read the 500+ page manual for each piece of equipment. I learn the basic operations and carry the manual with me for the few times I may need a reference.
3. I agree :)
4. I totally disagree that a subject 10 miles away isn't impressive. Sunsets, landscapes etc all have beauty and often times are more than 10 miles away. I get your point that with landscapes for example you typically want to focus about 1/3rd of the way into the image, but that is simply a rule. I'll post a picture I took that I think is quite impressive and is only a mere 1,500 light years away.
5. One of the first things you learn in professional photography is that each shutter click costs money. Not just the wear and tear on equipment, but processing time and storage space. I understand this is a beginners guide, however, 15 angles of the same subject is far less likely to yield a quality result as one or two pre-visualized images captured well.
11. I strongly disagree with your comment about shooting down on a subject, especially women. In fact, during the portfolio review for certification not shooting at a slight downward angle will disqualify many photographers from certification. Understanding forced perspective, why how and why its used is a more advanced subject, but simply put anything closer to the camera lens will be larger and anything further away smaller. I'm not by any means suggesting you stand and shoot down on a sitting woman, but putting the camera at forehead level and a slight downward tilt is the PREFERRED placement for portraiture. It will help to significantly minimize an overweight subject...

I appreciate and understand that you are offering your tips and pointers to new photographers and you make a few valid points but I'm obliged to comment on those areas that are patently incorrect. There is an expression - Lighting and Pose separate the Pro's from the Joes...
I've attached a couple of random images for credibility :)
 

harrington63

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #98 on: July 01, 2019, 07:29:38 PM »
Sorry, I'm new this should have been one thread up :(  Anyway, here's the image from 1,500 light years away that I think is impressive...

DutchEagle

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #99 on: July 01, 2019, 08:28:30 PM »
@SellerBird - Your post on Photography Tips For Beginners motivated me to join this group; well that and I occasionally look for answers to my rv questions... Anyway I wish I could say in a positive way, but unfortunately I have to disagree with many of your initial "tips."
Welcome to our forum.

The only rule about photography is in the eye of the beholder. When you are a professional photographer you have to play by the rules of what sells that does not mean that everyone else is wrong, photography is not an exact science!
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 08:31:55 PM by DutchEagle »
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darsben

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #100 on: July 01, 2019, 09:36:24 PM »
As a 70 year old perpetual beginner I. had trouble understanding your concepts they are over my head and not very basic IMO.
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Pugapooh

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #101 on: July 02, 2019, 02:46:38 AM »
Wow.  Joined up just to shoot somebody down.

If it were a safety issue,that would be okay but an artistic pursuit?  Just,wow.
2006 Dutchmen Denali 29 RL fiver
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SeilerBird

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #102 on: July 02, 2019, 03:54:47 AM »
Harrington is a "professional" photographer who thinks he is better than everyone else because he has read a few books and took a few courses. He does not comprehend that there is a large difference between a "professional" and a beginner. I wrote these tips out for beginners who are having trouble getting good images. It is not a complete course for a "professional" photographer. I am not going to go over his points one by one since it is not worth the effort. I am right and he is wrong.
I would like to apologize to anyone I have not yet offended. Please be patient and I will get to you shortly.
Favorite 2018 shots:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/s2JcpKVxX3Ez3c8j9
My portfolio:
https://goo.gl/photos/Cx4SaYhGfYFShSty7
My Grand Canyon shots:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Nc1AT8tQp25wJwfm1

camperAL

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #103 on: July 02, 2019, 04:59:16 AM »
Hi harrington63,

The image of the horsehead and the torchlight are good. Wondering if you took the photo or someone else? If you took the photo, what did you use to take the shot? Is this a stacked shot of images?
CamperAL (Indiana)
(2006 Coachmen Mirada 290 KS )

Larry N.

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #104 on: July 02, 2019, 07:11:44 AM »
@SellerBird - Your post on Photography Tips For Beginners motivated me to join this group; well that and I occasionally look for answers to my rv questions... Anyway I wish I could say in a positive way, but unfortunately I have to disagree with many of your initial "tips."
...

I appreciate and understand that you are offering your tips and pointers to new photographers and you make a few valid points but I'm obliged to comment on those areas that are patently incorrect. There is an expression - Lighting and Pose separate the Pro's from the Joes...
I've attached a couple of random images for credibility :)
I'd suggest that, in spite of your comment that you understand it's for beginners, you seem to not quite understand the needs of beginners. As for what separates "the Pro's from the Joes" the beginners are the Joes. And many (most?) beginners won't even understand a lot of what you are talking about.

The whole idea is to help beginners be able to take some pictures with some simple "rules," rules that often are "broken" by more advanced (and pro) photographers, NOT to set them on the road to being professional photographers with all the complexities that would entail.

The bottom line is that, for rank beginners, Tom's tips work just fine. Those that want more than improved snapshots can then have a starting place to learn, without needing an advanced degree.
Larry and Mary Ann N.
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harrington63

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #105 on: July 02, 2019, 10:17:34 AM »
@CamperAl
The Horsehead Nebula image is a single 5 minute exposure using a cooled camera for deep sky photography. Usually I stack a group of images but in this case was just trying a longer exposure. It takes a lot of equipment to do deep sky astrophotography and generally the cost is prohibitive unless you are really into it. My equipment is: C11 Edge HD scope, Hyperstar 3, ZWO 1600MC Pro, Orion ST80 with QHY5L-II for guiding and a CEM120 mount. I use PHD guiding to control the micro-movements of the scope and Nebulosity 4 for image capture. Processing is a combination of Nebulosity 4 and Photoshop. I'm just beginning to learn this skill; it can be very challenging as you must understand telescopes, photography and computers not to mention things like arc-seconds, pixel scale etc. But it is very rewarding :)

harrington63

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #106 on: July 02, 2019, 01:43:58 PM »
This afternoon I received a private message from a concerned member:
"Hi
After your first ever two posts on our forum, I hinted to the fact that Seilerbird gave tips to amateurs and you blasted him about that he was wrong in almost anything because you were a "professional" photographer and could up him big time. Others came on and voiced their concerns too. Than ignoring all the other comments you just answered someone about one of your photographs and tried to "Impress" everybody with your million dollar equipment.
Please be a gentleman and offer some polite excuses, that gets you further once you need help from RV experts about the knowledge you don't have.
I did not want to post this on our forum (yet) to give you a chance to correct your unprofessional behavior. Kindness goes a long way my friend."

In response, let me say that I am not a "Professional" I am a professional, I have the licensure, insurance, equipment, training and client base to support that, all it takes is a little checking. Next let me address the assumption that I "blasted" the OP. I make my living from my equipment, during which I am forced to compete with people who are able to take semi-pro quality images yet have little training or training received via the internet, some is very good and some very wrong. Here some of the information is not right. This becomes an issue because someone with poor skills devalues the market and the effort I put into my business. Basic get it done advice may help a total beginner get an image with a point and shoot camera that is slightly better than a phone image, but it won't improve their long-term photographic skill. A solid foundation of knowledge is fundamental to understanding photography. Further  I did not just jump in and refute each claim to "up him big time", in fact I browsed the forum and found that there were many things being promoted that are not correct. For example, no need for "professional lenses" While most do not need a pro lens, there are many reasons why you may choose to shoot with one, not the least of which is sharpness. The furthering discussion centered around sharpness of the image and frankly the OP's images are soft and lack contrast while otherwise the images are good. A "pro" lens will without question offer a sharper and higher contrast image. Wouldn't it be better if the OP had not set himself up so that his opinion is the only one that matters and let the reader determine for himself what he needed? In fact, this is the whole point of why I was motivated to comment - When you set yourself up as the expert and are going to advise others, make sure you are correct and give the reader the tools to do it on their own, not just "He's wrong, I'm right" approach... Next issue, Not answering the other commenters concerns. They did not specifically add anything to the conversation that would not devolve into a further pointless conversation, had someone asked a question or addressed me in a way that my response would have resolved an issue I would happily have replied, as I am here. To offer some polite excuse is fake, condescending and quite frankly a total repudiation of my belief system, as it should be anyone's. I like to know that should I receive an apology it is sincere and not contrived. Now the final issue, which I find extremely biased and unfair, (showing that we are all guilty of either mis-communication or intent) someone asked what equipment I used to take an image of the Horsehead Nebula. I answered their question - what am I supposed to do, lie about the equipment needed to capture that image? Let the person believe that if they point their camera at the sky they too can take an image that isn't visible with the naked eye, even using a high-powered telescope? I don't apologize for being informative. I don't apologize if the equipment I use cost more than a discount mart's offering, again, to get quality results requires quality equipment. So to put this issue to rest, I am not specifically calling out anyone to "one up them, or "impress them with my million dollar equipment" I am trying to offer an alternative viewpoint based on proven fact and experience. Again, when you set yourself up as the most knowledgeable King of the Hill, you better have the facts on your side. Now having said that, if you simply want to take a picture some of the tips may help, if you want to learn how to advance as a photographer some of the tips will trip you up. I'm happy to address any issues any of you may have.


HueyPilotVN

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #107 on: July 02, 2019, 02:19:01 PM »
Wow,

I am not going to put this in a Private Message as the other Forum member did as that did not seem to work as a friendly suggestion.

This Forum has the distinction of being known as "The friendliest place on the Internet" and it is mostly well deserved.

We have a term that we use to describe our relationships.   "Framily". a conjunction of the terms Friends and Family.

It describes the mostly congenial and socially comfortable relationships that are usually the norm here.

As part of this Framily I and others will come to the defense of Tom.  It is much more important for us to do that than to judge the merits of an advanced desertation of the fine points of photography.

We are a very welcoming group and I would suggest that you check your ego and just chill out with us.

Edit:  I was going to say, "If you mess with Grandpa, you get the whole trailer park after you".  LOL
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 02:59:57 PM by HueyPilotVN »
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Tom and Margi

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #108 on: July 02, 2019, 02:45:46 PM »
I completely agree with Bill Waugh, Larry N. and others who spoke in Seilor's defense.  This IS the friendliest forum on the internet.  Offering scathing criticism to someone who is just trying to offer help to beginners is a very poor way to foster friendliness in a group.

Here's a positive suggestion for you, harrington63.  If you truly want people to read your long message, it would be helpful if you would break it up a little.  Long texts with no white space are very difficult to read on a computer monitor.  Many people, myself included, will just pass them by unread.   Margi
 

Tom

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #109 on: July 02, 2019, 04:09:50 PM »
OK folks, let's calm down and avoid the "piling-on". We all know that TomS is more than capable of defending himself, and will occasionally offer his own "you're wrong" comments.

I'm very much a self-described point-and-shoot Joe, although I try to learn from everyone offering help and suggestions, both experienced amateurs and pros. However, my head is sometimes (too often) left spinning when folks get into technical disagreements on photography; Unfortunately, I pick up my camera so infrequently, that I usually forget what I've read/learned.

FWIW my Dad was a semi-pro photographer and one of my adult grandsons has his own successful photography business; I keep telling him that the photography gene passed me by  :-[

 I have a couple of acquaintances who are avid amateur "astro-photographers", and I'm continually blown away by both their equipment and the techniques they employ to get good results from a "blank sky"; One of these guys has even conducted a basic hands-on class, which gave me an appreciation of some of the specialized equipment and techniques. I learned enough to know that this is not a branch of photography in which I'd excel or that I'd even enjoy (I'd be too frustrated).
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 04:16:13 PM by Tom »
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Pugapooh

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #110 on: July 02, 2019, 04:39:42 PM »
The private message you got was excellent advice.  In the future,you would do well to explain what works for YOU without criticizing someone else's methods.  Again,this was not a risk to anyone's health,safety or equipment.

If you don't use paragraphs,nobody can or will read your response.  I didn't. 

This forum is about RVing.  You have certainly picked a strange place to have a battle over photography.  I can only wonder why you want to alienate yourself right from the start.

Now,did you have any RV related topics?
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2001 GMC Sierra 3500

harrington63

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #111 on: July 02, 2019, 05:14:05 PM »
I have no RV related questions.

Tom and Margi

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #112 on: July 02, 2019, 05:52:01 PM »
 ::)

darsben

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #113 on: July 02, 2019, 07:19:10 PM »
Everyone please remember the saying.
Everyone that comes brightens our day. Some when they come and .........
1990 Fleetwood Southwind on P30 chassis located in
Central NY in summer and beautiful Casa Grande AZ in winter

MN Blue Skies

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #114 on: July 03, 2019, 08:16:09 PM »
Hi Tom J, how to I find the split for DSLR photography from cell phone and point and shoot photography. Thanks.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 08:21:59 PM by MN Blue Skies »
A girl called Max, her husband Eric, Miss Kitty, and Miss Molly the Transylvanian Hound.

2013 Cougar High Country 315 RES ( A 35' 5th Wheel)
"Big Blue" 2012 RAM 3500 Big Horn (Cummins Diesel 1 ton)

MN Blue Skies

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #115 on: July 03, 2019, 08:32:42 PM »
This forum is about RVing.  Now,did you have any RV related topics?

Pugapooh please clarify, are you saying that a discussion about photography doesn't belong on this forum?  If so, then why have the admins included it as a topic? 
A girl called Max, her husband Eric, Miss Kitty, and Miss Molly the Transylvanian Hound.

2013 Cougar High Country 315 RES ( A 35' 5th Wheel)
"Big Blue" 2012 RAM 3500 Big Horn (Cummins Diesel 1 ton)

Tom

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #116 on: July 03, 2019, 08:47:54 PM »
Quote from: MN Blue Skies
Hi Tom J, how to I find the split for DSLR photography from cell phone and point and shoot photography.


 ??? Not sure what you mean. We only have one board for photography & imaging.
Tom.  Need help? Click the Help button in the toolbar above.

Pugapooh

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #117 on: July 04, 2019, 01:56:06 AM »
Pugapooh please clarify, are you saying that a discussion about photography doesn't belong on this forum?  If so, then why have the admins included it as a topic?

Their forum,their choices.  I was trying to establish if our new photographer had any interest in RV questions .  Sorry for the confusion.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2019, 01:57:39 AM by Pugapooh »
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Pugapooh

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Re: Photographic knowledge and tips for beginners
« Reply #118 on: July 04, 2019, 02:00:34 AM »
Crap,that sounds snarky.  I mean to say, if you run a forum,you run it how you want.
2006 Dutchmen Denali 29 RL fiver
2006 Dodge 2500 Big Horn
2001 GMC Sierra 3500