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Author Topic: Wal Mart crime  (Read 25577 times)


Tom

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2006, 08:39:40 PM »
If that's a true story, it's scary. I respect the folks who like to overnight at WalMart, but this story merely adds to my resolve to avoid them. Whenever my other half says "let's pull into WM over there", I reply "we don't know the town and don't know the area". Saving $30 and the small amount of time it takes to pull into a campground isn't worth losing your life over.
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Jackliz

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2006, 08:54:27 PM »
If that's a true story, it's scary. I respect the folks who like to overnight at WalMart, but this story merely adds to my resolve to avoid them. Whenever my other half says "let's pull into WM over there", I reply "we don't know the town and don't know the area". Saving $30 and the small amount of time it takes to pull into a campground isn't worth losing your life over.

Amen. I am with you re: Walmart. We have only stopped there one time long enough to have some lunch.

Terrible story.

Liz
Regards,
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Fulltiming in a 1993 Wanderlodge WB 40 ft
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Shayne

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2006, 09:22:31 PM »
Sad story.  I myself have stayed in 1 WM in all the years of RVing and that was this past March when we went back home. It was in the town we used to live in and I called the ASSt Mgr, cause I know him, and asked if it was OK.   He said absolutely, you know the rules 1 night out of the way and make sure there is no mess.  I said thank you and told the clerk inside thanks and did some shopping and went to the RV.   That  was after 9PM a I was gone before 7 Am. No slides out and didn't use the Jacks for 1 night, no generator, no Awning. didn't bother to unhook.
Old, Stubborn, Opinionated, Set in my Ways, and Independent,  IMHO

Wendy

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2006, 09:31:59 PM »
That was a pretty skimpy story. Makes you wonder what details were left out. I've never felt in danger at any Wal-Mart when we've stayed there and they all have security cameras and security personnel on 24/7 so the local police should be able to piece together what happened. Same thing could certainly happen at any campground, rest stop, Flying J, etc.

I do agree though that you should ask if it's ok before staying at any Wal-Mart.
Wendy, Mike, and Gordon
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John From Detroit

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2006, 09:38:00 PM »
Amen. I am with you re: Walmart. We have only stopped there one time long enough to have some lunch.

Terrible story.

Liz

I've mentioned that if I ever overnight at Wall Mart it will be just one night..   In fact, so far, the only times I've pulled off into a wall mart lot were

1: Had to pull off somewhere for a few minutes, never exited the MH, never killed the engine (I'll let you figure out why I pulled off)

2: Droped towed and headed to an office a few miles away to buy some gifts

3: Lunch at an eatery on the edge of the lot.
Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business
My Home is where I park it.

Phil

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2006, 12:20:26 AM »
If that's a true story, it's scary. I respect the folks who like to overnight at WalMart, but this story merely adds to my resolve to avoid them.

Tom,

Here are a couple of links on the story.  The police have not yet told the news people which of the four people in the RV did the actual shooting.  We are supposed to get a news release from the police Thursday morning.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=383341

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=383341&comments=true

Phil

motojavaphil

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2006, 12:43:31 AM »
A very tragic event for all involved.  I have weapons at my disposal in the event of someone breaking in.  Many RVers are older folks who would be at the mercy of a young man such as the one pictured.  Do Walmarts have a high crime rate?  I really dont know but it cant be any worse than a rest area or truck stop.  Sometimes if pressed for time I will stay in a truck stop or rest area but have never ever had a problem.  Would I defend myself and family if someone was breaking in, yes and with any force necessary.  The RV population tends to be older and therefore seen as easy prey to bad guys.  Self defense is justified tho unfortunate if needed. 
Phil, Carol, Ariel, Grey Lady
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Ray D

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2006, 12:56:52 AM »
The only "facts" in this story, as presented, is that someone died from a gunshot, at an RV, in a WalMart parking lot. The gun may have been a shotgun. The someone who was shot had a Misdemeanor criminal record. The RV owner and whoever was with him/her are still in town, cooperating with the police.  The rest of the story is unreported.

Certain comments in the story jump out at me, but I don't know anything, from what is reported, as to those issues. One comment, for example, that rings in loud is that there was no immediate arrest. Conclusions, based upon those news sound bites, are bound to be faulty.

That this happened in a WalMart parking lot is irrelevant to the conclusion. It could have happened, anywhere. Ordinary personal safety rules apply. I don't think I'd answer the door, if someone knocked on it at that time of night, but "maybe" he represented himself as a WalMart employee. Maybe one of the residents was a child, and the child opened the door. Maybe - - - . The problem with my comment is "maybe." I don't know who or why they answered the door.

Typical of news reporting, says very little and nothing of substance, while using a lot of words.

It's all speculation. Wait for the police report and the follow up from the Prosecutor. It is certainly a tragedy, but we don't know what kind of tragedy. There are degrees of losers, in this event, with no winners.


Ray D
Boise, Idaho. U.S.A.F. Vet. Damon Challenger, Workhorse/Vortec, 2005 towing a Suzuki XL-7, 2003.

Phil

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2006, 12:58:13 AM »
A very tragic event for all involved. 

Video link for tonights TV report.

http://kutv.com/video

Phil

Tom

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2006, 03:38:57 AM »
Thanks for the links Phil. Sounds like the facts are not all out yet. While we're waiting, I'll continue to stay at campgrounds rather than overnight at WM.

Only once has someone knocked on the door of our RV in the middle of the night. We were boondocking and it was the cops who came knocking, but that was scary enough for me.
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Chet18013

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2006, 06:05:30 AM »
Seems to me that the point missing here is, the Intruder got shot, NOT the RV owner. I would hope most folks interpet this as "don't mess with the RVs in a WALMART parkling lot".

Chet18013
Chet18013
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Tom

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2006, 07:37:22 AM »
Didn't miss that point Chet. We don't carry weapons so, had it been us in the RV, we might have been the ones who lost their lives.

Quote
I would hope most folks interpet this as "don't mess with the RVs in a WALMART parkling lot".

That would be nice, but I fear the publicity might just bring more attention to"easy pickings" in the eyes of the bad guys.
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hildyj

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2006, 07:46:32 AM »
I have stopped many times for overnights at walmart - and I have to admit I have always felt quite safe.  There are always other RVs around and I do travel with my dogs (dobermans) so I have built in security  :) But also it is the norm to see security patrolling at night.  Because i travel with my dogs it is really helpful that i can open the sliders when i stop at a walmart, which i cant do at truck stops.   I love stopping at the walmarts as invariably i can do some last minute shopping.  Most walmarts have nice big grassy areas which are perfect for exing the dogs. 

Tom

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2006, 07:51:46 AM »
I have stopped many times for overnights at walmart - and I have to admit I have always felt quite safe.

A lot of RVers, including close friends of ours, feel the same way and I respect that. Hopefully bad publicity doesn't cause WM to change their 'RVs welcome' policy.
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Jim Dick

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2006, 09:13:40 AM »
We have stayed at several WalMarts and never felt threatened. However we do it in a motor home. I would not feel as safe in a trailer. The good thing with a motor home is you can start the coach and drive away without having to get out of the rig. I always make sure the step is in. The toad is locked without the key in the ignition. I'd rather risk a little damage to tires by not having the wheel unlocked than leaving a key where someone could break in and drive away easily. If someone was to knock on the door it would not be opened until we could determine who it was. A call to 911 might easily be made if the person appeared to be threatening.

I think the bottom line is one must always be aware of their surroundings and not stay in any area that looks like it might bring trouble.
Jim

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Tom

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2006, 10:45:11 AM »
Jim,

Good point about being able to drive away. FWIW the Chevy Suburban, Tahoe and Envoy don't have mechanical steering locks, so the key never needs to be in and no tire damage. I learned that from Terry and haven't used they key since.
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Ray D

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2006, 11:16:13 AM »
We have three large Wal Mart stores in town. If they were a personal safety problem, I would be aware of that, and I am not. I am aware of some shoplifting and a few domestic quarrels. Actually, very few of those if the size of the stores and their parking lots is taken into account.

I have never overnighted at a Wal Mart, but not for reason of personal safety. It just hasnít been needed, in my travels, so far. I would not hesitate, if a Wal Mart was convenient and I needed a nap. I would use ordinary precautions, the same as anywhere else.

The type of crime that occurs in any given place should be an issue. In our most extraordinary case, we overnighted at a Flying J, north of Salt Lake City, three years ago. We were tired, when we got there, and it was late. (6:00 PM give or take.) Filled up, ask permission to park, and was directed to the truck parking area which was huge. Decided to eat out, and get to bed.

On the way from the truck stop cafť, back to the RV, my wife called my attention to a pickup truck, in the parking lot. We observed a ďcommercial transaction,Ē there. Given where we do our volunteer work, it was terribly obvious. Neither of them made any attempt to conceal what they were doing.

Decided to watch, for a few minutes and make up our minds about our safety. That business was fairly steady for the next half hour, as twilight began to descend. We saw both armed and unarmed security. A Police patrol unit cruised through, slowly, but didnít stop. (Business paused as the cop drove through.) We elected to stay and watch, a little longer.

Less than half an hour later, a small car with four women inside pulled into the lot, right in front of our vehicle, and parked. A truck driver walked over and started a conversation. Made a friend, immediately. She returned in about half an hour, to an empty car, and wasnít there, long. They made a lot of friends, that evening, and were still there, making friends, when we went to bed. Just before we went to bed, the Police made another drive thru.

I elected that we were safe, and we went to bed, in the midst of a crime wave. Woke up in the morning and drove on, quite refreshed.

Donít get me wrong. There was a very serious, immediate threat, to your safety and mine, in that parking lot, that night. There were twenty or thirty truckers who drove out, in the wee hours of the morning, still under the residual influence of their personal favorite narcotic. They went directly to the Interstate, and some of them headed your way. Later in the morning, each of them passed you, or a friend of yours, and all you knew was that a big rig had overtaken you.

Down the road, we are slowed to a crawl as we pass a wreck. A semi is overturned and a passenger car has been squashed. There are State Police units, and Paramedics, a lot of them! Wonder what happened? Minutes later, traffic clears up, again, and we continue on our way.

We get ďluckyĒ every day, and often we donít know it when it happens!

Ray D
Boise, Idaho. U.S.A.F. Vet. Damon Challenger, Workhorse/Vortec, 2005 towing a Suzuki XL-7, 2003.

motojavaphil

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2006, 11:20:27 AM »
I think this was a random thing that could have happened anywhere.  Cedar City is not crime central and as I recall it is a College Town.  During my visits there I have visited that Walmart, not as a camper but as a customer, and never felt threatened.  It is a neat town which I would not have minded moving to if I were looking for a new home.  RVer's for the most part do not cruise the streets looking for trouble nor do they affliate with gang activity and haul their families around while doing this.  If you are staying anywhere, even a campground, and you get a knock on the door after dark, I would not open it.  I'd speak thru the door and if there is a problem, such as I have to move, I'd acknowlege it without opening the door.  Perhaps installing a peephole, or getting the manufacturers to do it is not a bad idea.  If at a Walmart and the person identifies themselves as an employee ask them for the managers phone number and call that person to verify.  It is obvious one should not open the door.  Robbery is all too common nowadays...Phil 
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woodartist

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2006, 12:42:34 PM »
http://www.thespectrum.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060727/NEWS01/60727001/1002

Yes, Cedar City is a nice town and we stayed overnight at that Wal Mart a month ago. However the Southern Utah growth from the Californians is rapidly increasing. Not sure how long it will remain a nice small town, witness St. George. Yes, it could have happened anywhere, but it didn't. When we stayed at the Wal Mart in Santa Fe for a few days ( real experience) I got to know the security guard there. Mentioned we were heading to Albuquerque and he advised not staying at any of the Wal Marts there. We didn't. However, most of the Wal Marts we have stayed at...all over the West, except Ca., didn't seem to pose any threats. We will still stay at them, although I decided to clean the shot gun today and put in some fresh buckshot ;) One item that jumped out in the news report today was the issue of Wal Mart's liability. ::) Saw that coming for years and wonder if that will have any effect on their Dry Camping policy. Just a matter of time I suppose. Seems if permission is granted to park, then there are liability issues...not necessarily in this incident.......

John From Detroit

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2006, 04:08:56 PM »
It is a fact, in days  of old crooks were not so bold and some neighborhoods were fairly safe

However today we have a very large number of, well, junkies, and to a junkie that money in your wallet.. It's his, we also have teen gangs that go out to "Get Paid" and they don't respect any neigborhood, or for that matter anyone..  I mean when one teen gang member pulled his gun a friend of mine pushed his girl to safety, and announced he was state police,  He literly died on his shield (The convicted gang members appealed their sentence, at the re-sentencing the judge spend rather a long time praising the morals and actions of the deceased victim trooper.  He also listened to the pleas of the convicts, and promptly sentenced them to enough time in the pokey to insure they don't ever get out and kill again. (60 years if memory serves, to 150)

This was in one of the safest, and best patrolled, parts of Detroit

(By the way, the convicts still don't respect, they don't know how to respect, however I suspect they are learning)

You see, the trooper was in the way of their "Getting paid"

One of the mothers of the convicts made some comment about the cops grabbing "The first black kid they could get their hands on" and in truth we did, but he was a different case, Turns out he had nothing to do with the killing, he's doing 30 years for possission with intent to distribute though.
Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business
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Woody

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2006, 07:10:26 PM »
John,

Its already started here in Indiana with the "I65 sniper shooting". They are blaming his problems on the fact that there was no "remedial training" at the school he went to.

Woody

Jim Dick

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2006, 07:48:49 PM »
Jim,

Good point about being able to drive away. FWIW the Chevy Suburban, Tahoe and Envoy don't have mechanical steering locks, so the key never needs to be in and no tire damage. I learned that from Terry and haven't used they key since.

Tom,

That is just one more advantage for motor homes. :)
Jim

Titusville, Florida
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woodartist

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2006, 06:37:02 PM »

Ray D

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2006, 09:10:38 PM »
woodartist: Thanks for the update.

The information is starting to get out, and I'll observe that it is looking better for the shooter. Don't take it to the bank til the Prosecutor says what he is going to do. He's the fat lady, that sings.

Interesting looking "motorhome." - - - Is that a Class C?

Ray D
Boise, Idaho. U.S.A.F. Vet. Damon Challenger, Workhorse/Vortec, 2005 towing a Suzuki XL-7, 2003.

Phil

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2006, 12:17:15 AM »

John From Detroit

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2006, 08:27:04 AM »
You know, every time I hear of one of these cases where some jerk forces his way into a home and winds up dead I hear no end of what a nice kid he was, How he was kind to puppies, always treated his mother with respect and on and on and on and on

This in spite of a criminal history (in many cases) so long I had to put a new roll of paper in the pirnter to print it out!

I'll wait for the investigation to finish before I form an opinion
Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business
My Home is where I park it.

Ray D

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2006, 09:05:17 AM »
John: I am right there with you.

Couple of observations:

1. Almost every felon has another side, and his actions are a big surprise to some, if not all, of his family. Some turn a blind eye to shenanigans of their "ner do well" offspring. I do have some sympathy for them. This has to be a shock, especially if the rest of his short life story is correctly represented.

2, Utah is a "Make My Day" state, and honors all out of state firearms permits. The only element required for personal defense is a tumultuous entry. Yep, that does it! If he misrepresented himself to gain entry, no criminal case! And, the state has to prove he didn't. Pretty difficult, given the set of circumstances already leaked by police.

3. Assume for the sake of argument, that the facts are as presented. (Never a safe presumption but useful for educated speculation.) Then we have a really seriously injured crime victim, from Florida. It is far worse than it appears! They are far from home, stuck in a strange town, their vacation fatally interrupted. It's over, for a long time to come.

Still on our unsafe speculation, but going on what is there, so far, had dad not acted - his family was toast, wife and two small girls. But, we are led by pretty strong evidence (the corpse) that he did act. His family is safe, unharmed. Ummm - - - - safe, that is, if you don't take into account the nightmares those little girls will have, for the rest of their lives, due to what they witnessed at such a young age. If you don't count the horrible trauma the parents will endure, forever more. It was so close to a different kind of tragedy.

The shooter is worried about his family's future, even now, already. He would like to know if he is going to be arrested, and if so, what happens to his family. How will they cope, his wife and those two little girls?

He has hired a criminal defense attorney, and the financial cost begins. He pays plenty, even if he is not eventually arrested. If he goes to trial - then the bottom falls out, at the bank. We are not talking about a slow leak, here.

With the assumptions, so far, and the comments from the family of the deceased, I see in my crystal ball that he is going to have to hire a civil attorney, also. May have already done that. He loses, there, even if he wins! Worse, that will drag on, for years. He will need a home state (Florida) attorney, associated with his local civil attorney.

Like I said, earlier, there are no winners here. Only degrees of tragic losers.

We are in the opening scene, the beginning. Long, drawn out, theater! The "fat lady" hasn't sung, yet. She won't, for a couple of years, maybe more!

Ray D

« Last Edit: July 29, 2006, 09:16:04 AM by Ray D »
Boise, Idaho. U.S.A.F. Vet. Damon Challenger, Workhorse/Vortec, 2005 towing a Suzuki XL-7, 2003.

John From Detroit

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2006, 06:04:21 PM »
Well, Ray, as to the guilt, innocence, responsibility and such of the shooter and the shootee,  Living as I do in Detroit I've seen far too many of these cases to form an opinion based on what's in the news paper.  Note: Some of the information I've seen is not public (I was a Police Dispatcher) There were more than a few cases where I knew the truth, I witnessed the truth, but I also read the paper and know from expiernce that the papers print what sells, the truth, often does not sell.

So, I agree with you on all but one point,  Just one point.

You said "There are no winners"

Some years ago there was a law suit, A customer and a car dealer argued their cases in court.  At the end of the day a settlement was reached and blessed by the court.  A reporter (A wise reporter, a rare item) asked the dealer who won.  The wise dealer (Somewhat less rare than a wise reporter) replied "The Lawyers"

In cases like this the Lawyers are the winners, the only winners, and may well be deserving of a blast from that shotgun, but still they are the winners

As for the shooter and shootee and their framilies  We are in frull aggrement
Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business
My Home is where I park it.

Ray D

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #29 on: July 29, 2006, 06:21:05 PM »
Copy that, John. I forgot about the lawyers, while I was talking about lawyers. Go figure!

Ray D
Boise, Idaho. U.S.A.F. Vet. Damon Challenger, Workhorse/Vortec, 2005 towing a Suzuki XL-7, 2003.

motojavaphil

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2006, 01:01:52 AM »
One thing stands out from this tragedy besides lawyers, police and ballistic reports.  It is that he and his family are alive!  Nightmares come and go and memories haunt you but the bottom line is all of them can have them.  Once you are gone, all the laws, sentencing and investigations will not bring you back.  Again, don't answer the door, even if you think you are Dirty Harry!
Phil, Carol, Ariel, Grey Lady
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John From Detroit

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2006, 01:58:55 PM »
Copy that, John. I forgot about the lawyers, while I was talking about lawyers. Go figure!

Ray D

No problem. in fact I thank you for forgetting it as it's one of my favorite rants and you gave me a lovely chance to rant it :-)


And to FastPhil... This is true, and as of this typing I don't know what would have happened if he had not capped the dude. (However my general suspusion is a crime would have been comitted by the deceased, Or I should say additional crime)

One of the big reasons I do not carry a gun, which is not to say I don't carry protection, just not a gun, is that I do believe that if I ever have to cap some jerk, I will do it, do it well, and still enjoy a good nights sleep, no bad dreams (The advantage of making sure of your actions before you pull the gun)

And I don't think that someone who kills someone else SHOULD sleep well.

Thus I don't carry a gun.  I rely on other things to protect me.. Note necessarly less deadly, just not so noisy

« Last Edit: July 30, 2006, 02:02:16 PM by John In Detroit »
Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business
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Smoky

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2006, 12:23:18 AM »
Well, apparently the Coltellinos have been told they can continue on and finish the rest of their vacation.

news story

This sounds like good news for all RVers.† I believe that if the Coltellinos are not charged with criminal action then WalMart will be encouraged to continue on with their policy of allowing overnight stays.

I find this topic of great interest because it combines two topics that have been fascinating on this forum.... the issue of firearms for self defense, and the issue of overnight parking at WM.

The attorney for the RVers said the action was appropriate† "if the shooter had reason to believe someone had entered their "habitation" with violent intent. "†

I am sure this interpretation varies in every state.† Fortunately in Utah the interpretation works to their advantage.† The intruder not only tried to strangle the husband, but also struck the wife in the face.† The activity took place inside the motorhome and not out on the parking lot.† My personal opinion is that the action taken was fully justified, and that there is not the slightest hint of a "drug deal gone bad" which is a popular theory on the Yahoo WalMart forum.† Most drug dealers do not drive upscale motorhomes and have young children in pajamas traveling about with them.† From all appearances it looks like a typical family vacation.† The police must think so also, as they are allowing the family to move on, but are subject to recall.

The intruder also has had two alcohol related offenses since this past March.

I am rooting heavily for the RV family because i think it will bode well for all RVers, even those who do not stay at WMs.† It also bodes well for anyone caught in a position where their family is threatened with violence from intruders in their own home.† Something that happens FAR too often in this current pestilent world.

One lesson I learned from all of this is that if I ever get a knock on the door, I will open my window first to ask what is going on.

I also learned from the Newmar forum (everyone on the Internet is discussing this incident) is that when we are boondocking, we should not only retract our outside steps, but also close our step covers.† Thus if the door is opened for some reason, it is a very high climb to get into the coach.† I have heard of retracting steps, but this is the first time I have heard of closing step covers.† A very good idea.†

Next week I will probably fall on my face in the middle of the night on a WM parking lot.† †;D ;D
Smoky S  Ham radio - W3PY

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woodartist

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2006, 01:56:06 AM »
I tend to agree with your opinion. I'm glad it was here in Utah and not NY or CA. He did use a shotgun which is better than if he used a pistol in one of the more regulated states. Their ears are probably still ringing:) There are other cases that didn't have the same outcome and am sure glad this one turned out OK for the apparently innocent Rver. Drug deal?? Anything is possible but from what I have read that is unlikely. Wonder where the Yahoo folks got that info? Some Rv's are used to make meth, but as you stated the facts don't seem to indicate any drug problems............

Ray D

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2006, 08:21:12 AM »
Smoky: Thanks for the update. Please close your ears and move back from the screen, just a bit. I am going to rant, and I donít want anybody hurt! Pardon me, folks, please.

Everybody is an expert, on YAHOO!

DRUG DEAL GONE BAD?? GIVE ME A BREAK!!

Narcotics, a gun, and a corpse? This story would have been over, that night! Mommy and Daddy would have been in jail and the kids in custody of child welfare. It wouldn't have been a story, at all, and we would not talking about it, most likely wouldn't even know about it! There were no narcotics!

We still donít know much about what happened, there. For example, we donít know if Hubby did the shooting. Could have been Mommy! One thing we have had as fact is that it was not a drug deal gone bad. Weíve had that all along.

Iím sure that there are people who transfer drugs, in motorhomes. I doubt that it is a problem of any size. I have been in, around, and close by so many drug busts that I feel like Iíve seen it all. I havenít seen it all, there is a new wrinkle, every time.† Iíve seen a lot.

When the cops got to that Wal Mart parking lot, that night, they expected to find a homicide. They werenít disappointed. There it was, half in and half out of the entry door, part of the head blown away by a shotgun! Yes, thatís a homicide. First year rookie can figure that out, instantly.

So, they question every living soul in or near the motorhome. Anyone can take the Fifth, but no one does, in this case. (Suggests that the criminal is the dead one.)

While the questioning goes on through the night, the Crime Scene Investigators take the motorhome apart. Warrant? Donít need one! That is a crime scene. On the question of narcotics - one of the first things on the list, to look for. Someone flushed the evidence? Everyone here can laugh at that idea! Down the toilet doesnít work! Any CSI unit is trained and largely competent, professional. They might make a mistake, but it won't be that they missed narcotics, at this crime scene!

Drugs and a gun in the unit? Thatís a Federal offense! No mention of the FBI nor BATFE at the scene, and the media would have picked that up for a Banner Headline.

Like I said, give me a break!

Oh, yes - YAHOO? I havenít seen it all. Got sick looking at it, and stopped looking. It was almost all hysteria, when I quit looking. Think Iíll stop at this point. Not finished, just think itís a good idea.

Ray D
« Last Edit: July 31, 2006, 09:12:48 AM by Ray D »
Boise, Idaho. U.S.A.F. Vet. Damon Challenger, Workhorse/Vortec, 2005 towing a Suzuki XL-7, 2003.

Ray D

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2006, 08:20:23 PM »
OK, calmed down now. Didnít mean to kill the thread! Find YAHOO irritating, rather frequently.

Smoky:

Your observations are excellent. When the police gave the green light to the victim family, that is pretty much the end of the story, there. Unless something shows up in sample tests of stuff they took, the rest is wrap up. We certainly are in agreement on the issue of narcotics connections. There werenít any! Guess I made that opinion clear, in the rant.

As you said, if someone knocks on your door in the middle of the night, open the window and find out what they want. No need to open the door. Watch the guyís hands, carefully. He may have a gun. If you canít see his hands, ask him to show them to you. If he wonít do it, respond accordingly. Take cover! I would avoid standing in the stairwell. Motorhome doors and walls are not much of a barricade, not bullet proof at all!

We keep our steps so that they pop out when the door is opened. Iíll have to rethink that. Not sure what I will do. Like you, I see myself falling face first on the ground, if I forget to extend the steps. Been there - done that!

Woodartist: You must have heard a shotgun go off inside a vehicle, at one time. My ears are ringing, from reading about it!

You know, of course, the person who fired the gun, most likely never heard it. He/she may not even have known that he/she fired the gun! That is until the target reacted. Everything on automatic, tunnel vision, no conscious awareness, recoil not felt, no sound at all, no understanding that you have just fired a gun! Slowly, senses come back - realization begins to set in. ďWhat have I done? What happened?Ē       

On Rvs being used in the making and selling of drugs. Iíve seen it, but only in pickup campers and pickups with shells. Never seen a motorhome or a trailer used for that purpose. At least, not yet. Now, I have seen mobile homes used for narcotics. Different animal - different circumstances. But, I am sure that someone, somewhere, deals out of a motorhome, somehow. Just havenít seen nor heard about it.

I did say ďpretty much the end of the story.Ē Not a perfect ending. No trial means heís on the hook, from now on - with no way off. His attorney has told him to keep his mouth shut. He is not even to discuss it with friends and family. If he is smart, he will follow the attorneyís advice. If he has a civil attorney, already, same deal. ďDonít say nothing - ever - to anyone! This isnít over!Ē

All things going well, the police will close the case, eventually. (It can be reopened.) Or, they will turn it over to the prosecutor and failing to find a prosecutable case, he will decline to prosecute - effectively ending the active criminal case. It may take a while. That will put the case back into the headlines, either way. Whichever will be reported to the public - media.

Then, the civil case begins, or it doesnít. There is no statute of limitations on Homicide, but there is on wrongful death civil litigation. Time starts running when the case ends, in criminal court or by being closed.

You are right, too, with your observation that Utah is a good state for the shooter, in this case, and on the shotgun vs. handgun issue in some states. The pendulum is swinging, more toward being legally permitted to defend yourself, in many states.

The shotgun is somehow, in some perverted way, seen as more acceptable, and the pistol - less so. Shotgun a ďnicerĒ weapon? Oh, my! But gun laws are not made by people who understand guns!
Boise, Idaho. U.S.A.F. Vet. Damon Challenger, Workhorse/Vortec, 2005 towing a Suzuki XL-7, 2003.

Wendy

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2006, 08:45:29 PM »
Having the phone number for the Wal-Mart store when staying in a Wal-Mart parking lot seems to me like a pretty good thing to have handy. Someone knocks on your door and says they're 'security', give the Wal-Mart a call and ask the manager.

As for what really happened in the Cedar City case, we'll never know. The parties involved probably don't even know what 'really' happened.
Wendy, Mike, and Gordon
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Ray D

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2006, 08:59:20 PM »
Wendy: Astute observations, Excellent!

I like the idea of having the Wal Mart store number handy. Easy to do, really.

And, there is a fair chance that mommy and daddy have discussed this event repeatedly, puzzled, as to what really happened. Like you said, we may never know - worse, they may never really know!

Ray D
Boise, Idaho. U.S.A.F. Vet. Damon Challenger, Workhorse/Vortec, 2005 towing a Suzuki XL-7, 2003.

woodartist

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2006, 09:26:07 PM »
There has been a problem with meth labs in trailers and motor homes, in the West. Nevada seems the most reported. AZ passed a restriction on Pseudo fed and as a result the "domestic" production has gone down...but Mexico has filled that void ::) The reason for labs in the Rv's might be because they are so mobile and inexpensive? Starting to give Rvers a bad name :( The topic has come up when new Rv parks are proposed and the neighbors don't want them. Heck, they have even made them in hotel rooms. At least one caught fire in Laughlin. Makes you a little more aware of who is in the hotel:) Many years ago I'd set up my darkroon in a hotel bathroom to develop film and make prints. No need today, but even so I wouldn't do it. Can just imagine the security folks investigating a strange smell :) :)

There was an article in the previous SLC paper about Utah having one of the cheapest and most accepted concealed weapons permits. 20+ states accept it and since Utah is the cheapest, they are getting flooded with requests. The complaint was the cost Utah was bearing for running the checks and issuing the permits.....look for the cost to go up ;)

Ray D

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2006, 10:19:03 PM »
Woodartist: I didn't know any of that. I am familiar with a serious Meth problem in Idaho. But, my position makes me a bit myopic. I am not aware of RVs being a problem, here. Maybe I should look a bit more carefully. Actually, while I see a lot of RVs, I have seen none that arouse my suspicion. None of the usual warning signs.

My permit is an Idaho permit. It's good most anywhere I want to go. I can go to Utah without making any changes, and that suits me fine. I have not considered getting a Utah permit. I am not good in Washington and Oregon. Not a problem as the laws there are friendly to vehicle carry which requires little adjustment for me. Open carry is legal, there. Hate to do it, and usually don't. I just limit where I go, and when.

To apply that to the subject of this thread, people who choose to carry, either on their person or in the vehicle, need to study the laws before they go somewhere. One can get from Florida to Utah, (and on to Idaho,) carrying concealed, legally, all the way - if they are careful about their rout. While I do not favor a shotgun as a weapon, it worked in the case we have been observing. I hate to admit it. I also hate to say this, but, sometimes, if you draw to an inside straight, you hit the straight. Not the way to bet, but sometimes it works. That is the nature of life.

I am releaved, for the victims in this case. I hope it gets better for them. They have seen their share of Hell. I feel for those little girls, especially.

OK, and I wonder if mommy shot the bad guy, while he was trying to strangle Daddy. Wish I knew.

Ray D
Boise, Idaho. U.S.A.F. Vet. Damon Challenger, Workhorse/Vortec, 2005 towing a Suzuki XL-7, 2003.

woodartist

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2006, 11:11:58 PM »
Your right, everyone should check the laws. There are surprises ;) LV Metro, Clark County require a permit to open carry and they also have jurisdiction in Lake Meade National Rec area. Of course the permit is not accepted for N. Las Vegas, Henderson, etc. So technically you could violate the law by being in different areas of the same county ::)

I'll keep a watch on the local papers and if any additonal info on the Wal Mart case comes up, I'll post it......Sad story, in one way but a good story in another....

I bought one of those peep holes like you see in hotels, for the door. Home Depot has some large ones with different angles. I'd rather look oput that way, than open a door or window.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2006, 11:14:13 PM by woodartist »

motojavaphil

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2006, 12:17:27 AM »
I always put a perspective on things.  I have been threatened in my life, generally when I was younger but not since I have been older.  I have camped in a lot of places from truckstops to rest areas.  I have never stayed in a WM.  I have never been bothered and folks generally had a friendly veneer when I saw them.  Did have a prostitiute try to snag me but Carol cut that short.  She was also grabbed by lesbians in San Francisco and I pulled her out of that.  There was a lovesick redneck who took his dumptruck thru a Harley Rally, running over tents, in a campground.  More guns were fired in that episode than a Clint Eastwood movie and no one got hurt.  As we used to say in Nam, there is bullet out there with your number on it.  Hopefully no one will fire it!  My counsel is to just use caution like not opening the door and precautions with the stairs.  Carry a shotgun or mace or whatever so you can protect yourself.  Never initiate aggression...seen that done by some irate RVer's.  Just flow with it and be part of the landscape and no one is going to bother you.  Remember, there are far more good people than those 1%ers. ;)
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John From Detroit

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2006, 08:01:54 AM »
Without being there I can tell you there may well have been a drug connection of sorts.  This gets kind of involved.

Let us assume (Which is a dangerous act, if you want to know why write down assume again, only this time put a space before an dafter the "U")  that someone else was parked in that same place the day before with a very similar rig...

And that person was the drug supplier

And the deceased (you may notice I don't call him victim) came, expecting to find THAT person, and got the wrong RV.

This might explain why he was there.  Or, it may be as someone else commented he was hoping for a ride to Florida, or it may be the daughter caught his evil eye (or the wife) or it may be something Else entirely.

Bottom line is he came in, with or without permission, started hitting on people (in the sense of using them as punching bags) and was instructed to stop, when he continued he was stopped.  With extreme prejudice,  And now he's appealing his case to the highest court.

Appears the police are happy with the outcome, and the streets in that town are now safer as a result. 

The only concern I have is the ability of the victims to recovery mentally.  And of course having physiologists forced upon them.  I really hate that when it happens.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2006, 08:03:56 AM by John In Detroit »
Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business
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woodartist

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2006, 10:34:03 AM »
The only thing that might dismiss your possible scenario is that the motorhome was a very unique style. Don't know if you saw the picture on one of the links, but I have never seen one like it. In general your thoughts are valid. I'm always paranoid when I rent a motel room wondering if the previous guest was dealing ;D

John From Detroit

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2006, 01:24:56 PM »
I saw a picture too but do not recall it.  I should stress here, In the scenaro I suggested the folks in the motor home had NOTHING to do with drugs...

I might add... To a properly charged up Druggie,  a Pace Arrow and a Winnabago might well look a lot alike

(To a sober person of course the difference is like night and day)

In any case the important thing is the police and prosicutors have decided no fault lies with anoyne save the deceased.  And that is good
Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business
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scottydl

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2006, 05:56:41 PM »
The only thing that might dismiss your possible scenario is that the motorhome was a very unique style.

Gotta agree here... see attached photo.  If I ever saw two of those in my life I'd be surprised... especially in the same town, same store, same parking lot, same parking space, two nights in a row.  ;)
Scott, wife, 3 boys... and the dog
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woodartist

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2006, 09:44:06 PM »
Very unusual rig indeed. Not sure of the age of the folks in there but it looks like something maybe a younger RVer would have?? Of course the old people use meds and maybe that could be a reason. I tend to think that maybe the intruder might be on drugs and of an irrational mind. Will be interesting to see the end analysis and does serve as a wake up call...did for me ;)

Ray D

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2006, 10:45:59 PM »
"Will be interesting to see the end analysis and does serve as a wake up call...did for me"

Thanks to the folks who have kept us informed, so far. You've done a good job. We await the Crime Scene Investigators. May take a while. They are pretty careful, these days.

Don't forget the Civil case, if any. That will also be in the news, and may be filed locally or in Federal Court. That may be a while, also.

Ray D
Boise, Idaho. U.S.A.F. Vet. Damon Challenger, Workhorse/Vortec, 2005 towing a Suzuki XL-7, 2003.

Jim Dick

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2006, 05:59:19 AM »
Having the phone number for the Wal-Mart store when staying in a Wal-Mart parking lot seems to me like a pretty good thing to have handy. Someone knocks on your door and says they're 'security', give the Wal-Mart a call and ask the manager.

As for what really happened in the Cedar City case, we'll never know. The parties involved probably don't even know what 'really' happened.

And it's very easy to do. Whenever we think we'll be staying at a WalMart, we call ahead. Dial 1-800-WalMart. Punch in the zip code of the store you want, found in their road atlas, and it will give you the phone number.
Jim

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NWRVer

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2006, 03:04:56 PM »
Thousands of WalMarts (and similar) accross the country.  Millions of RVers who park there at least once per year.  If only one or two incidences occur, the odds are that they're pretty safe.  Of course, if your not comfortable there, leave.  There is also safety in numbers, so if you stay at a WalMart and there are other RVers there, park near them.  You don't necessarily have to visit and socialize with the others, just make the group larger.

I personally have stayed at several WalMarts.  They've always been well lighted and sometimes with security. I'm rarely the only one there, but have never felt uncomfortable.  Many truck stops and rest areas I've had to stop at, I've felt very aprehensive about. 

Anyways, If you don't like it, move on.  You're in an RV afterall, the freedom to go where you want, need, are comfortable at.

John From Detroit

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2006, 09:37:45 PM »
Good point and execelent advice NWRVer (If you don't like it move on)

Speaking as a retired police dispatcher... The best way to get of a bad situtation is to not get in one in the first place.

Don't like the neighborhood... Thy the next stop down the road  Wall Marts are becomming like cell phone stores... There are places where they are only a mile or two apart
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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2006, 10:20:40 PM »
I've only stayed at 1 WM in many many years of RVing and that was in my home town this year.† Usually when on the road and not stopping at a CG, I will try to find a patrolman and ask them the best place to pullover for the eve.† Not only do they† tell me the best place† they generally will lead us to the spot and the we'll begin a comversation once there and they will normally check on us throughout the night and have their next shift do likewise.† Best of all worlds that way.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 11:57:35 AM by Shayne »
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scottydl

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #52 on: August 03, 2006, 09:00:08 AM »
This is becoming quite an educational thread, aside from the actual news story discussed.


I personally have stayed at several WalMarts.  They've always been well lighted and sometimes with security. I'm rarely the only one there, but have never felt uncomfortable.  Many truck stops and rest areas I've had to stop at, I've felt very aprehensive about.

Very good point NW, it seems that this story seems to have made news because it happened in a "family friendly" Wal-mart lot.  Similar incidents at truck stops and rest areas probably happen often across the country and never make the news.  Within this thread alone is an account of obvious open air drug and prostitution deals happening while RV'ing at a truck stop.  I don't think that stuff happens *too* often at Wal-mart, at least not right out in the open.


Usually when on the road and not stopping at a CG, I will try to find a patrolman and ask them the best place to pullover for the eve.  Not only do they  tell my the best place  they generally will dlead us to the spot and them we'll begub a comversation once there and they will normally check on us throughout the night and have their next shift do likewise.  Best of all worlds that way.

Right on Shayne, never hurts to make friends with the local police.  ;)
Scott, wife, 3 boys... and the dog
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Ray D

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #53 on: August 03, 2006, 09:31:40 AM »
it seems that this story seems to have made news because it happened in a "family friendly" Wal-mart lot. Similar incidents at truck stops and rest areas probably happen often across the country and never make the news.

Bingo!

Wish I'd said that! You got right to the point in just a few words. Wierd stuff makes the news. Very unusual stuff makes the news. Ordinary minor crime, done every day, several times a day, doesn't get there. Violent death almost always gets there, at least locally. But, even that doesn't have staying power unless there is something unusual or unique about it.

This event was unusual, unique, nationwide. Got nationwide coverage with staying power. Actually should "reassure" people who camp at Wal Mart. Very rare event.

Ray D
Boise, Idaho. U.S.A.F. Vet. Damon Challenger, Workhorse/Vortec, 2005 towing a Suzuki XL-7, 2003.

trac209

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2006, 09:28:18 PM »
That kind of thing is tragic but it doesn't pain me to see a man protect his family. That kind of thing can happen anywhere as well,a guy I knew of was killed at a campground for confronting noisy campers. It happened right infront of his wife and kids and the guy who did it didn't serve one day in jail either. There's a real tragedy!
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 09:52:06 PM by trac209 »

John From Detroit

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2006, 10:29:54 AM »
==And the guy who did it didn't serve one day in jail either..."

You know,, there are states where I can more or less guarentee the murderer would not spend a day in jail.... Unless he ran very very fast that is.

What would he do for oh, the next 3 days (Lie in state perhaps)
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