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Author Topic: Wal Mart crime  (Read 25545 times)

motojavaphil

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2006, 01:01:52 AM »
One thing stands out from this tragedy besides lawyers, police and ballistic reports.  It is that he and his family are alive!  Nightmares come and go and memories haunt you but the bottom line is all of them can have them.  Once you are gone, all the laws, sentencing and investigations will not bring you back.  Again, don't answer the door, even if you think you are Dirty Harry!
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John From Detroit

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2006, 01:58:55 PM »
Copy that, John. I forgot about the lawyers, while I was talking about lawyers. Go figure!

Ray D

No problem. in fact I thank you for forgetting it as it's one of my favorite rants and you gave me a lovely chance to rant it :-)


And to FastPhil... This is true, and as of this typing I don't know what would have happened if he had not capped the dude. (However my general suspusion is a crime would have been comitted by the deceased, Or I should say additional crime)

One of the big reasons I do not carry a gun, which is not to say I don't carry protection, just not a gun, is that I do believe that if I ever have to cap some jerk, I will do it, do it well, and still enjoy a good nights sleep, no bad dreams (The advantage of making sure of your actions before you pull the gun)

And I don't think that someone who kills someone else SHOULD sleep well.

Thus I don't carry a gun.  I rely on other things to protect me.. Note necessarly less deadly, just not so noisy

« Last Edit: July 30, 2006, 02:02:16 PM by John In Detroit »
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Smoky

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2006, 12:23:18 AM »
Well, apparently the Coltellinos have been told they can continue on and finish the rest of their vacation.

news story

This sounds like good news for all RVers.† I believe that if the Coltellinos are not charged with criminal action then WalMart will be encouraged to continue on with their policy of allowing overnight stays.

I find this topic of great interest because it combines two topics that have been fascinating on this forum.... the issue of firearms for self defense, and the issue of overnight parking at WM.

The attorney for the RVers said the action was appropriate† "if the shooter had reason to believe someone had entered their "habitation" with violent intent. "†

I am sure this interpretation varies in every state.† Fortunately in Utah the interpretation works to their advantage.† The intruder not only tried to strangle the husband, but also struck the wife in the face.† The activity took place inside the motorhome and not out on the parking lot.† My personal opinion is that the action taken was fully justified, and that there is not the slightest hint of a "drug deal gone bad" which is a popular theory on the Yahoo WalMart forum.† Most drug dealers do not drive upscale motorhomes and have young children in pajamas traveling about with them.† From all appearances it looks like a typical family vacation.† The police must think so also, as they are allowing the family to move on, but are subject to recall.

The intruder also has had two alcohol related offenses since this past March.

I am rooting heavily for the RV family because i think it will bode well for all RVers, even those who do not stay at WMs.† It also bodes well for anyone caught in a position where their family is threatened with violence from intruders in their own home.† Something that happens FAR too often in this current pestilent world.

One lesson I learned from all of this is that if I ever get a knock on the door, I will open my window first to ask what is going on.

I also learned from the Newmar forum (everyone on the Internet is discussing this incident) is that when we are boondocking, we should not only retract our outside steps, but also close our step covers.† Thus if the door is opened for some reason, it is a very high climb to get into the coach.† I have heard of retracting steps, but this is the first time I have heard of closing step covers.† A very good idea.†

Next week I will probably fall on my face in the middle of the night on a WM parking lot.† †;D ;D
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woodartist

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2006, 01:56:06 AM »
I tend to agree with your opinion. I'm glad it was here in Utah and not NY or CA. He did use a shotgun which is better than if he used a pistol in one of the more regulated states. Their ears are probably still ringing:) There are other cases that didn't have the same outcome and am sure glad this one turned out OK for the apparently innocent Rver. Drug deal?? Anything is possible but from what I have read that is unlikely. Wonder where the Yahoo folks got that info? Some Rv's are used to make meth, but as you stated the facts don't seem to indicate any drug problems............

Ray D

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2006, 08:21:12 AM »
Smoky: Thanks for the update. Please close your ears and move back from the screen, just a bit. I am going to rant, and I donít want anybody hurt! Pardon me, folks, please.

Everybody is an expert, on YAHOO!

DRUG DEAL GONE BAD?? GIVE ME A BREAK!!

Narcotics, a gun, and a corpse? This story would have been over, that night! Mommy and Daddy would have been in jail and the kids in custody of child welfare. It wouldn't have been a story, at all, and we would not talking about it, most likely wouldn't even know about it! There were no narcotics!

We still donít know much about what happened, there. For example, we donít know if Hubby did the shooting. Could have been Mommy! One thing we have had as fact is that it was not a drug deal gone bad. Weíve had that all along.

Iím sure that there are people who transfer drugs, in motorhomes. I doubt that it is a problem of any size. I have been in, around, and close by so many drug busts that I feel like Iíve seen it all. I havenít seen it all, there is a new wrinkle, every time.† Iíve seen a lot.

When the cops got to that Wal Mart parking lot, that night, they expected to find a homicide. They werenít disappointed. There it was, half in and half out of the entry door, part of the head blown away by a shotgun! Yes, thatís a homicide. First year rookie can figure that out, instantly.

So, they question every living soul in or near the motorhome. Anyone can take the Fifth, but no one does, in this case. (Suggests that the criminal is the dead one.)

While the questioning goes on through the night, the Crime Scene Investigators take the motorhome apart. Warrant? Donít need one! That is a crime scene. On the question of narcotics - one of the first things on the list, to look for. Someone flushed the evidence? Everyone here can laugh at that idea! Down the toilet doesnít work! Any CSI unit is trained and largely competent, professional. They might make a mistake, but it won't be that they missed narcotics, at this crime scene!

Drugs and a gun in the unit? Thatís a Federal offense! No mention of the FBI nor BATFE at the scene, and the media would have picked that up for a Banner Headline.

Like I said, give me a break!

Oh, yes - YAHOO? I havenít seen it all. Got sick looking at it, and stopped looking. It was almost all hysteria, when I quit looking. Think Iíll stop at this point. Not finished, just think itís a good idea.

Ray D
« Last Edit: July 31, 2006, 09:12:48 AM by Ray D »
Boise, Idaho. U.S.A.F. Vet. Damon Challenger, Workhorse/Vortec, 2005 towing a Suzuki XL-7, 2003.

Ray D

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2006, 08:20:23 PM »
OK, calmed down now. Didnít mean to kill the thread! Find YAHOO irritating, rather frequently.

Smoky:

Your observations are excellent. When the police gave the green light to the victim family, that is pretty much the end of the story, there. Unless something shows up in sample tests of stuff they took, the rest is wrap up. We certainly are in agreement on the issue of narcotics connections. There werenít any! Guess I made that opinion clear, in the rant.

As you said, if someone knocks on your door in the middle of the night, open the window and find out what they want. No need to open the door. Watch the guyís hands, carefully. He may have a gun. If you canít see his hands, ask him to show them to you. If he wonít do it, respond accordingly. Take cover! I would avoid standing in the stairwell. Motorhome doors and walls are not much of a barricade, not bullet proof at all!

We keep our steps so that they pop out when the door is opened. Iíll have to rethink that. Not sure what I will do. Like you, I see myself falling face first on the ground, if I forget to extend the steps. Been there - done that!

Woodartist: You must have heard a shotgun go off inside a vehicle, at one time. My ears are ringing, from reading about it!

You know, of course, the person who fired the gun, most likely never heard it. He/she may not even have known that he/she fired the gun! That is until the target reacted. Everything on automatic, tunnel vision, no conscious awareness, recoil not felt, no sound at all, no understanding that you have just fired a gun! Slowly, senses come back - realization begins to set in. ďWhat have I done? What happened?Ē       

On Rvs being used in the making and selling of drugs. Iíve seen it, but only in pickup campers and pickups with shells. Never seen a motorhome or a trailer used for that purpose. At least, not yet. Now, I have seen mobile homes used for narcotics. Different animal - different circumstances. But, I am sure that someone, somewhere, deals out of a motorhome, somehow. Just havenít seen nor heard about it.

I did say ďpretty much the end of the story.Ē Not a perfect ending. No trial means heís on the hook, from now on - with no way off. His attorney has told him to keep his mouth shut. He is not even to discuss it with friends and family. If he is smart, he will follow the attorneyís advice. If he has a civil attorney, already, same deal. ďDonít say nothing - ever - to anyone! This isnít over!Ē

All things going well, the police will close the case, eventually. (It can be reopened.) Or, they will turn it over to the prosecutor and failing to find a prosecutable case, he will decline to prosecute - effectively ending the active criminal case. It may take a while. That will put the case back into the headlines, either way. Whichever will be reported to the public - media.

Then, the civil case begins, or it doesnít. There is no statute of limitations on Homicide, but there is on wrongful death civil litigation. Time starts running when the case ends, in criminal court or by being closed.

You are right, too, with your observation that Utah is a good state for the shooter, in this case, and on the shotgun vs. handgun issue in some states. The pendulum is swinging, more toward being legally permitted to defend yourself, in many states.

The shotgun is somehow, in some perverted way, seen as more acceptable, and the pistol - less so. Shotgun a ďnicerĒ weapon? Oh, my! But gun laws are not made by people who understand guns!
Boise, Idaho. U.S.A.F. Vet. Damon Challenger, Workhorse/Vortec, 2005 towing a Suzuki XL-7, 2003.

Wendy

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2006, 08:45:29 PM »
Having the phone number for the Wal-Mart store when staying in a Wal-Mart parking lot seems to me like a pretty good thing to have handy. Someone knocks on your door and says they're 'security', give the Wal-Mart a call and ask the manager.

As for what really happened in the Cedar City case, we'll never know. The parties involved probably don't even know what 'really' happened.
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Ray D

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #37 on: July 31, 2006, 08:59:20 PM »
Wendy: Astute observations, Excellent!

I like the idea of having the Wal Mart store number handy. Easy to do, really.

And, there is a fair chance that mommy and daddy have discussed this event repeatedly, puzzled, as to what really happened. Like you said, we may never know - worse, they may never really know!

Ray D
Boise, Idaho. U.S.A.F. Vet. Damon Challenger, Workhorse/Vortec, 2005 towing a Suzuki XL-7, 2003.

woodartist

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #38 on: July 31, 2006, 09:26:07 PM »
There has been a problem with meth labs in trailers and motor homes, in the West. Nevada seems the most reported. AZ passed a restriction on Pseudo fed and as a result the "domestic" production has gone down...but Mexico has filled that void ::) The reason for labs in the Rv's might be because they are so mobile and inexpensive? Starting to give Rvers a bad name :( The topic has come up when new Rv parks are proposed and the neighbors don't want them. Heck, they have even made them in hotel rooms. At least one caught fire in Laughlin. Makes you a little more aware of who is in the hotel:) Many years ago I'd set up my darkroon in a hotel bathroom to develop film and make prints. No need today, but even so I wouldn't do it. Can just imagine the security folks investigating a strange smell :) :)

There was an article in the previous SLC paper about Utah having one of the cheapest and most accepted concealed weapons permits. 20+ states accept it and since Utah is the cheapest, they are getting flooded with requests. The complaint was the cost Utah was bearing for running the checks and issuing the permits.....look for the cost to go up ;)

Ray D

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2006, 10:19:03 PM »
Woodartist: I didn't know any of that. I am familiar with a serious Meth problem in Idaho. But, my position makes me a bit myopic. I am not aware of RVs being a problem, here. Maybe I should look a bit more carefully. Actually, while I see a lot of RVs, I have seen none that arouse my suspicion. None of the usual warning signs.

My permit is an Idaho permit. It's good most anywhere I want to go. I can go to Utah without making any changes, and that suits me fine. I have not considered getting a Utah permit. I am not good in Washington and Oregon. Not a problem as the laws there are friendly to vehicle carry which requires little adjustment for me. Open carry is legal, there. Hate to do it, and usually don't. I just limit where I go, and when.

To apply that to the subject of this thread, people who choose to carry, either on their person or in the vehicle, need to study the laws before they go somewhere. One can get from Florida to Utah, (and on to Idaho,) carrying concealed, legally, all the way - if they are careful about their rout. While I do not favor a shotgun as a weapon, it worked in the case we have been observing. I hate to admit it. I also hate to say this, but, sometimes, if you draw to an inside straight, you hit the straight. Not the way to bet, but sometimes it works. That is the nature of life.

I am releaved, for the victims in this case. I hope it gets better for them. They have seen their share of Hell. I feel for those little girls, especially.

OK, and I wonder if mommy shot the bad guy, while he was trying to strangle Daddy. Wish I knew.

Ray D
Boise, Idaho. U.S.A.F. Vet. Damon Challenger, Workhorse/Vortec, 2005 towing a Suzuki XL-7, 2003.

woodartist

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2006, 11:11:58 PM »
Your right, everyone should check the laws. There are surprises ;) LV Metro, Clark County require a permit to open carry and they also have jurisdiction in Lake Meade National Rec area. Of course the permit is not accepted for N. Las Vegas, Henderson, etc. So technically you could violate the law by being in different areas of the same county ::)

I'll keep a watch on the local papers and if any additonal info on the Wal Mart case comes up, I'll post it......Sad story, in one way but a good story in another....

I bought one of those peep holes like you see in hotels, for the door. Home Depot has some large ones with different angles. I'd rather look oput that way, than open a door or window.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2006, 11:14:13 PM by woodartist »

motojavaphil

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2006, 12:17:27 AM »
I always put a perspective on things.  I have been threatened in my life, generally when I was younger but not since I have been older.  I have camped in a lot of places from truckstops to rest areas.  I have never stayed in a WM.  I have never been bothered and folks generally had a friendly veneer when I saw them.  Did have a prostitiute try to snag me but Carol cut that short.  She was also grabbed by lesbians in San Francisco and I pulled her out of that.  There was a lovesick redneck who took his dumptruck thru a Harley Rally, running over tents, in a campground.  More guns were fired in that episode than a Clint Eastwood movie and no one got hurt.  As we used to say in Nam, there is bullet out there with your number on it.  Hopefully no one will fire it!  My counsel is to just use caution like not opening the door and precautions with the stairs.  Carry a shotgun or mace or whatever so you can protect yourself.  Never initiate aggression...seen that done by some irate RVer's.  Just flow with it and be part of the landscape and no one is going to bother you.  Remember, there are far more good people than those 1%ers. ;)
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John From Detroit

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2006, 08:01:54 AM »
Without being there I can tell you there may well have been a drug connection of sorts.  This gets kind of involved.

Let us assume (Which is a dangerous act, if you want to know why write down assume again, only this time put a space before an dafter the "U")  that someone else was parked in that same place the day before with a very similar rig...

And that person was the drug supplier

And the deceased (you may notice I don't call him victim) came, expecting to find THAT person, and got the wrong RV.

This might explain why he was there.  Or, it may be as someone else commented he was hoping for a ride to Florida, or it may be the daughter caught his evil eye (or the wife) or it may be something Else entirely.

Bottom line is he came in, with or without permission, started hitting on people (in the sense of using them as punching bags) and was instructed to stop, when he continued he was stopped.  With extreme prejudice,  And now he's appealing his case to the highest court.

Appears the police are happy with the outcome, and the streets in that town are now safer as a result. 

The only concern I have is the ability of the victims to recovery mentally.  And of course having physiologists forced upon them.  I really hate that when it happens.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2006, 08:03:56 AM by John In Detroit »
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woodartist

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2006, 10:34:03 AM »
The only thing that might dismiss your possible scenario is that the motorhome was a very unique style. Don't know if you saw the picture on one of the links, but I have never seen one like it. In general your thoughts are valid. I'm always paranoid when I rent a motel room wondering if the previous guest was dealing ;D

John From Detroit

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2006, 01:24:56 PM »
I saw a picture too but do not recall it.  I should stress here, In the scenaro I suggested the folks in the motor home had NOTHING to do with drugs...

I might add... To a properly charged up Druggie,  a Pace Arrow and a Winnabago might well look a lot alike

(To a sober person of course the difference is like night and day)

In any case the important thing is the police and prosicutors have decided no fault lies with anoyne save the deceased.  And that is good
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scottydl

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2006, 05:56:41 PM »
The only thing that might dismiss your possible scenario is that the motorhome was a very unique style.

Gotta agree here... see attached photo.  If I ever saw two of those in my life I'd be surprised... especially in the same town, same store, same parking lot, same parking space, two nights in a row.  ;)
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woodartist

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2006, 09:44:06 PM »
Very unusual rig indeed. Not sure of the age of the folks in there but it looks like something maybe a younger RVer would have?? Of course the old people use meds and maybe that could be a reason. I tend to think that maybe the intruder might be on drugs and of an irrational mind. Will be interesting to see the end analysis and does serve as a wake up call...did for me ;)

Ray D

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2006, 10:45:59 PM »
"Will be interesting to see the end analysis and does serve as a wake up call...did for me"

Thanks to the folks who have kept us informed, so far. You've done a good job. We await the Crime Scene Investigators. May take a while. They are pretty careful, these days.

Don't forget the Civil case, if any. That will also be in the news, and may be filed locally or in Federal Court. That may be a while, also.

Ray D
Boise, Idaho. U.S.A.F. Vet. Damon Challenger, Workhorse/Vortec, 2005 towing a Suzuki XL-7, 2003.

Jim Dick

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2006, 05:59:19 AM »
Having the phone number for the Wal-Mart store when staying in a Wal-Mart parking lot seems to me like a pretty good thing to have handy. Someone knocks on your door and says they're 'security', give the Wal-Mart a call and ask the manager.

As for what really happened in the Cedar City case, we'll never know. The parties involved probably don't even know what 'really' happened.

And it's very easy to do. Whenever we think we'll be staying at a WalMart, we call ahead. Dial 1-800-WalMart. Punch in the zip code of the store you want, found in their road atlas, and it will give you the phone number.
Jim

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NWRVer

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2006, 03:04:56 PM »
Thousands of WalMarts (and similar) accross the country.  Millions of RVers who park there at least once per year.  If only one or two incidences occur, the odds are that they're pretty safe.  Of course, if your not comfortable there, leave.  There is also safety in numbers, so if you stay at a WalMart and there are other RVers there, park near them.  You don't necessarily have to visit and socialize with the others, just make the group larger.

I personally have stayed at several WalMarts.  They've always been well lighted and sometimes with security. I'm rarely the only one there, but have never felt uncomfortable.  Many truck stops and rest areas I've had to stop at, I've felt very aprehensive about. 

Anyways, If you don't like it, move on.  You're in an RV afterall, the freedom to go where you want, need, are comfortable at.

John From Detroit

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2006, 09:37:45 PM »
Good point and execelent advice NWRVer (If you don't like it move on)

Speaking as a retired police dispatcher... The best way to get of a bad situtation is to not get in one in the first place.

Don't like the neighborhood... Thy the next stop down the road  Wall Marts are becomming like cell phone stores... There are places where they are only a mile or two apart
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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2006, 10:20:40 PM »
I've only stayed at 1 WM in many many years of RVing and that was in my home town this year.† Usually when on the road and not stopping at a CG, I will try to find a patrolman and ask them the best place to pullover for the eve.† Not only do they† tell me the best place† they generally will lead us to the spot and the we'll begin a comversation once there and they will normally check on us throughout the night and have their next shift do likewise.† Best of all worlds that way.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 11:57:35 AM by Shayne »
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scottydl

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #52 on: August 03, 2006, 09:00:08 AM »
This is becoming quite an educational thread, aside from the actual news story discussed.


I personally have stayed at several WalMarts.  They've always been well lighted and sometimes with security. I'm rarely the only one there, but have never felt uncomfortable.  Many truck stops and rest areas I've had to stop at, I've felt very aprehensive about.

Very good point NW, it seems that this story seems to have made news because it happened in a "family friendly" Wal-mart lot.  Similar incidents at truck stops and rest areas probably happen often across the country and never make the news.  Within this thread alone is an account of obvious open air drug and prostitution deals happening while RV'ing at a truck stop.  I don't think that stuff happens *too* often at Wal-mart, at least not right out in the open.


Usually when on the road and not stopping at a CG, I will try to find a patrolman and ask them the best place to pullover for the eve.  Not only do they  tell my the best place  they generally will dlead us to the spot and them we'll begub a comversation once there and they will normally check on us throughout the night and have their next shift do likewise.  Best of all worlds that way.

Right on Shayne, never hurts to make friends with the local police.  ;)
Scott, wife, 3 boys... and the dog
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Ray D

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #53 on: August 03, 2006, 09:31:40 AM »
it seems that this story seems to have made news because it happened in a "family friendly" Wal-mart lot. Similar incidents at truck stops and rest areas probably happen often across the country and never make the news.

Bingo!

Wish I'd said that! You got right to the point in just a few words. Wierd stuff makes the news. Very unusual stuff makes the news. Ordinary minor crime, done every day, several times a day, doesn't get there. Violent death almost always gets there, at least locally. But, even that doesn't have staying power unless there is something unusual or unique about it.

This event was unusual, unique, nationwide. Got nationwide coverage with staying power. Actually should "reassure" people who camp at Wal Mart. Very rare event.

Ray D
Boise, Idaho. U.S.A.F. Vet. Damon Challenger, Workhorse/Vortec, 2005 towing a Suzuki XL-7, 2003.

trac209

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2006, 09:28:18 PM »
That kind of thing is tragic but it doesn't pain me to see a man protect his family. That kind of thing can happen anywhere as well,a guy I knew of was killed at a campground for confronting noisy campers. It happened right infront of his wife and kids and the guy who did it didn't serve one day in jail either. There's a real tragedy!
« Last Edit: August 03, 2006, 09:52:06 PM by trac209 »

John From Detroit

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Re: Wal Mart crime
« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2006, 10:29:54 AM »
==And the guy who did it didn't serve one day in jail either..."

You know,, there are states where I can more or less guarentee the murderer would not spend a day in jail.... Unless he ran very very fast that is.

What would he do for oh, the next 3 days (Lie in state perhaps)
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My Home is where I park it.

 

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