Wal Mart crime

It is a fact, in days  of old crooks were not so bold and some neighborhoods were fairly safe

However today we have a very large number of, well, junkies, and to a junkie that money in your wallet.. It's his, we also have teen gangs that go out to "Get Paid" and they don't respect any neigborhood, or for that matter anyone..  I mean when one teen gang member pulled his gun a friend of mine pushed his girl to safety, and announced he was state police,  He literly died on his shield (The convicted gang members appealed their sentence, at the re-sentencing the judge spend rather a long time praising the morals and actions of the deceased victim trooper.  He also listened to the pleas of the convicts, and promptly sentenced them to enough time in the pokey to insure they don't ever get out and kill again. (60 years if memory serves, to 150)

This was in one of the safest, and best patrolled, parts of Detroit

(By the way, the convicts still don't respect, they don't know how to respect, however I suspect they are learning)

You see, the trooper was in the way of their "Getting paid"

One of the mothers of the convicts made some comment about the cops grabbing "The first black kid they could get their hands on" and in truth we did, but he was a different case, Turns out he had nothing to do with the killing, he's doing 30 years for possission with intent to distribute though.

John,

Its already started here in Indiana with the "I65 sniper shooting". They are blaming his problems on the fact that there was no "remedial training" at the school he went to.

Woody

Tom said:

Jim,

Good point about being able to drive away. FWIW the Chevy Suburban, Tahoe and Envoy don't have mechanical steering locks, so the key never needs to be in and no tire damage. I learned that from Terry and haven't used they key since.

Click to expand...

Tom,

That is just one more advantage for motor homes.

Later article http://www.thespectrum.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060728/NEWS01/607280310/1002

Interesting looking "motorhome."

woodartist: Thanks for the update.

The information is starting to get out, and I'll observe that it is looking better for the shooter. Don't take it to the bank til the Prosecutor says what he is going to do. He's the fat lady, that sings.

Interesting looking "motorhome." - - - Is that a Class C?

Ray D

Another view of the deceased

http://www.thespectrum.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060728/OBITUARIES/607280334/1023

You know, every time I hear of one of these cases where some jerk forces his way into a home and winds up dead I hear no end of what a nice kid he was, How he was kind to puppies, always treated his mother with respect and on and on and on and on

This in spite of a criminal history (in many cases) so long I had to put a new roll of paper in the pirnter to print it out!

I'll wait for the investigation to finish before I form an opinion

John: I am right there with you.

Couple of observations:

1. Almost every felon has another side, and his actions are a big surprise to some, if not all, of his family. Some turn a blind eye to shenanigans of their "ner do well" offspring. I do have some sympathy for them. This has to be a shock, especially if the rest of his short life story is correctly represented.

2, Utah is a "Make My Day" state, and honors all out of state firearms permits. The only element required for personal defense is a tumultuous entry. Yep, that does it! If he misrepresented himself to gain entry, no criminal case! And, the state has to prove he didn't. Pretty difficult, given the set of circumstances already leaked by police.

3. Assume for the sake of argument, that the facts are as presented. (Never a safe presumption but useful for educated speculation.) Then we have a really seriously injured crime victim, from Florida. It is far worse than it appears! They are far from home, stuck in a strange town, their vacation fatally interrupted. It's over, for a long time to come.

Still on our unsafe speculation, but going on what is there, so far, had dad not acted - his family was toast, wife and two small girls. But, we are led by pretty strong evidence (the corpse) that he did act. His family is safe, unharmed. Ummm - - - - safe, that is, if you don't take into account the nightmares those little girls will have, for the rest of their lives, due to what they witnessed at such a young age. If you don't count the horrible trauma the parents will endure, forever more. It was so close to a different kind of tragedy.

The shooter is worried about his family's future, even now, already. He would like to know if he is going to be arrested, and if so, what happens to his family. How will they cope, his wife and those two little girls?

He has hired a criminal defense attorney, and the financial cost begins. He pays plenty, even if he is not eventually arrested. If he goes to trial - then the bottom falls out, at the bank. We are not talking about a slow leak, here.

With the assumptions, so far, and the comments from the family of the deceased, I see in my crystal ball that he is going to have to hire a civil attorney, also. May have already done that. He loses, there, even if he wins! Worse, that will drag on, for years. He will need a home state (Florida) attorney, associated with his local civil attorney.

Like I said, earlier, there are no winners here. Only degrees of tragic losers.

We are in the opening scene, the beginning. Long, drawn out, theater! The "fat lady" hasn't sung, yet. She won't, for a couple of years, maybe more!

Ray D

Well, Ray, as to the guilt, innocence, responsibility and such of the shooter and the shootee,  Living as I do in Detroit I've seen far too many of these cases to form an opinion based on what's in the news paper.  Note: Some of the information I've seen is not public (I was a Police Dispatcher) There were more than a few cases where I knew the truth, I witnessed the truth, but I also read the paper and know from expiernce that the papers print what sells, the truth, often does not sell.

So, I agree with you on all but one point,  Just one point.

You said "There are no winners"

Some years ago there was a law suit, A customer and a car dealer argued their cases in court.  At the end of the day a settlement was reached and blessed by the court.  A reporter (A wise reporter, a rare item) asked the dealer who won.  The wise dealer (Somewhat less rare than a wise reporter) replied "The Lawyers"

In cases like this the Lawyers are the winners, the only winners, and may well be deserving of a blast from that shotgun, but still they are the winners

As for the shooter and shootee and their framilies  We are in frull aggrement

Copy that, John. I forgot about the lawyers, while I was talking about lawyers. Go figure!

Ray D

One thing stands out from this tragedy besides lawyers, police and ballistic reports.  It is that he and his family are alive!  Nightmares come and go and memories haunt you but the bottom line is all of them can have them.  Once you are gone, all the laws, sentencing and investigations will not bring you back.  Again, don't answer the door, even if you think you are Dirty Harry!

Ray D said:

Copy that, John. I forgot about the lawyers, while I was talking about lawyers. Go figure!

Ray D

Click to expand...

No problem. in fact I thank you for forgetting it as it's one of my favorite rants and you gave me a lovely chance to rant it


And to FastPhil... This is true, and as of this typing I don't know what would have happened if he had not capped the dude. (However my general suspusion is a crime would have been comitted by the deceased, Or I should say additional crime)

One of the big reasons I do not carry a gun, which is not to say I don't carry protection, just not a gun, is that I do believe that if I ever have to cap some jerk, I will do it, do it well, and still enjoy a good nights sleep, no bad dreams (The advantage of making sure of your actions before you pull the gun)

And I don't think that someone who kills someone else SHOULD sleep well.

Thus I don't carry a gun.  I rely on other things to protect me.. Note necessarly less deadly, just not so noisy

Well, apparently the Coltellinos have been told they can continue on and finish the rest of their vacation.

news story

This sounds like good news for all RVers.? I believe that if the Coltellinos are not charged with criminal action then WalMart will be encouraged to continue on with their policy of allowing overnight stays.

I find this topic of great interest because it combines two topics that have been fascinating on this forum.... the issue of firearms for self defense, and the issue of overnight parking at WM.

The attorney for the RVers said the action was appropriate? "if the shooter had reason to believe someone had entered their "habitation" with violent intent. "?

I am sure this interpretation varies in every state.? Fortunately in Utah the interpretation works to their advantage.? The intruder not only tried to strangle the husband, but also struck the wife in the face.? The activity took place inside the motorhome and not out on the parking lot.? My personal opinion is that the action taken was fully justified, and that there is not the slightest hint of a "drug deal gone bad" which is a popular theory on the Yahoo WalMart forum.? Most drug dealers do not drive upscale motorhomes and have young children in pajamas traveling about with them.? From all appearances it looks like a typical family vacation.? The police must think so also, as they are allowing the family to move on, but are subject to recall.

The intruder also has had two alcohol related offenses since this past March.

I am rooting heavily for the RV family because i think it will bode well for all RVers, even those who do not stay at WMs.? It also bodes well for anyone caught in a position where their family is threatened with violence from intruders in their own home.? Something that happens FAR too often in this current pestilent world.

One lesson I learned from all of this is that if I ever get a knock on the door, I will open my window first to ask what is going on.

I also learned from the Newmar forum (everyone on the Internet is discussing this incident) is that when we are boondocking, we should not only retract our outside steps, but also close our step covers.? Thus if the door is opened for some reason, it is a very high climb to get into the coach.? I have heard of retracting steps, but this is the first time I have heard of closing step covers.? A very good idea.?

Next week I will probably fall on my face in the middle of the night on a WM parking lot.? ?;D ;D

I tend to agree with your opinion. I'm glad it was here in Utah and not NY or CA. He did use a shotgun which is better than if he used a pistol in one of the more regulated states. Their ears are probably still ringing There are other cases that didn't have the same outcome and am sure glad this one turned out OK for the apparently innocent Rver. Drug deal?? Anything is possible but from what I have read that is unlikely. Wonder where the Yahoo folks got that info? Some Rv's are used to make meth, but as you stated the facts don't seem to indicate any drug problems............

Smoky: Thanks for the update. Please close your ears and move back from the screen, just a bit. I am going to rant, and I don?t want anybody hurt! Pardon me, folks, please.

Everybody is an expert, on YAHOO!

DRUG DEAL GONE BAD?? GIVE ME A BREAK!!

Narcotics, a gun, and a corpse? This story would have been over, that night! Mommy and Daddy would have been in jail and the kids in custody of child welfare. It wouldn't have been a story, at all, and we would not talking about it, most likely wouldn't even know about it! There were no narcotics!

We still don?t know much about what happened, there. For example, we don?t know if Hubby did the shooting. Could have been Mommy! One thing we have had as fact is that it was not a drug deal gone bad. We?ve had that all along.

I?m sure that there are people who transfer drugs, in motorhomes. I doubt that it is a problem of any size. I have been in, around, and close by so many drug busts that I feel like I?ve seen it all. I haven?t seen it all, there is a new wrinkle, every time.? I?ve seen a lot.

When the cops got to that Wal Mart parking lot, that night, they expected to find a homicide. They weren?t disappointed. There it was, half in and half out of the entry door, part of the head blown away by a shotgun! Yes, that?s a homicide. First year rookie can figure that out, instantly.

So, they question every living soul in or near the motorhome. Anyone can take the Fifth, but no one does, in this case. (Suggests that the criminal is the dead one.)

While the questioning goes on through the night, the Crime Scene Investigators take the motorhome apart. Warrant? Don?t need one! That is a crime scene. On the question of narcotics - one of the first things on the list, to look for. Someone flushed the evidence? Everyone here can laugh at that idea! Down the toilet doesn?t work! Any CSI unit is trained and largely competent, professional. They might make a mistake, but it won't be that they missed narcotics, at this crime scene!

Drugs and a gun in the unit? That?s a Federal offense! No mention of the FBI nor BATFE at the scene, and the media would have picked that up for a Banner Headline.

Like I said, give me a break!

Oh, yes - YAHOO? I haven?t seen it all. Got sick looking at it, and stopped looking. It was almost all hysteria, when I quit looking. Think I?ll stop at this point. Not finished, just think it?s a good idea.

Ray D

OK, calmed down now. Didn?t mean to kill the thread! Find YAHOO irritating, rather frequently.

Smoky:

Your observations are excellent. When the police gave the green light to the victim family, that is pretty much the end of the story, there. Unless something shows up in sample tests of stuff they took, the rest is wrap up. We certainly are in agreement on the issue of narcotics connections. There weren?t any! Guess I made that opinion clear, in the rant.

As you said, if someone knocks on your door in the middle of the night, open the window and find out what they want. No need to open the door. Watch the guy?s hands, carefully. He may have a gun. If you can?t see his hands, ask him to show them to you. If he won?t do it, respond accordingly. Take cover! I would avoid standing in the stairwell. Motorhome doors and walls are not much of a barricade, not bullet proof at all!

We keep our steps so that they pop out when the door is opened. I?ll have to rethink that. Not sure what I will do. Like you, I see myself falling face first on the ground, if I forget to extend the steps. Been there - done that!

Woodartist: You must have heard a shotgun go off inside a vehicle, at one time. My ears are ringing, from reading about it!

You know, of course, the person who fired the gun, most likely never heard it. He/she may not even have known that he/she fired the gun! That is until the target reacted. Everything on automatic, tunnel vision, no conscious awareness, recoil not felt, no sound at all, no understanding that you have just fired a gun! Slowly, senses come back - realization begins to set in. ?What have I done? What happened??

On Rvs being used in the making and selling of drugs. I?ve seen it, but only in pickup campers and pickups with shells. Never seen a motorhome or a trailer used for that purpose. At least, not yet. Now, I have seen mobile homes used for narcotics. Different animal - different circumstances. But, I am sure that someone, somewhere, deals out of a motorhome, somehow. Just haven?t seen nor heard about it.

I did say ?pretty much the end of the story.? Not a perfect ending. No trial means he?s on the hook, from now on - with no way off. His attorney has told him to keep his mouth shut. He is not even to discuss it with friends and family. If he is smart, he will follow the attorney?s advice. If he has a civil attorney, already, same deal. ?Don?t say nothing - ever - to anyone! This isn?t over!?

All things going well, the police will close the case, eventually. (It can be reopened.) Or, they will turn it over to the prosecutor and failing to find a prosecutable case, he will decline to prosecute - effectively ending the active criminal case. It may take a while. That will put the case back into the headlines, either way. Whichever will be reported to the public - media.

Then, the civil case begins, or it doesn?t. There is no statute of limitations on Homicide, but there is on wrongful death civil litigation. Time starts running when the case ends, in criminal court or by being closed.

You are right, too, with your observation that Utah is a good state for the shooter, in this case, and on the shotgun vs. handgun issue in some states. The pendulum is swinging, more toward being legally permitted to defend yourself, in many states.

The shotgun is somehow, in some perverted way, seen as more acceptable, and the pistol - less so. Shotgun a ?nicer? weapon? Oh, my! But gun laws are not made by people who understand guns!

Having the phone number for the Wal-Mart store when staying in a Wal-Mart parking lot seems to me like a pretty good thing to have handy. Someone knocks on your door and says they're 'security', give the Wal-Mart a call and ask the manager.

As for what really happened in the Cedar City case, we'll never know. The parties involved probably don't even know what 'really' happened.

Wendy: Astute observations, Excellent!

I like the idea of having the Wal Mart store number handy. Easy to do, really.

And, there is a fair chance that mommy and daddy have discussed this event repeatedly, puzzled, as to what really happened. Like you said, we may never know - worse, they may never really know!

Ray D

There has been a problem with meth labs in trailers and motor homes, in the West. Nevada seems the most reported. AZ passed a restriction on Pseudo fed and as a result the "domestic" production has gone down...but Mexico has filled that void : The reason for labs in the Rv's might be because they are so mobile and inexpensive? Starting to give Rvers a bad name The topic has come up when new Rv parks are proposed and the neighbors don't want them. Heck, they have even made them in hotel rooms. At least one caught fire in Laughlin. Makes you a little more aware of who is in the hotel Many years ago I'd set up my darkroon in a hotel bathroom to develop film and make prints. No need today, but even so I wouldn't do it. Can just imagine the security folks investigating a strange smell

There was an article in the previous SLC paper about Utah having one of the cheapest and most accepted concealed weapons permits. 20+ states accept it and since Utah is the cheapest, they are getting flooded with requests. The complaint was the cost Utah was bearing for running the checks and issuing the permits.....look for the cost to go up

Woodartist: I didn't know any of that. I am familiar with a serious Meth problem in Idaho. But, my position makes me a bit myopic. I am not aware of RVs being a problem, here. Maybe I should look a bit more carefully. Actually, while I see a lot of RVs, I have seen none that arouse my suspicion. None of the usual warning signs.

My permit is an Idaho permit. It's good most anywhere I want to go. I can go to Utah without making any changes, and that suits me fine. I have not considered getting a Utah permit. I am not good in Washington and Oregon. Not a problem as the laws there are friendly to vehicle carry which requires little adjustment for me. Open carry is legal, there. Hate to do it, and usually don't. I just limit where I go, and when.

To apply that to the subject of this thread, people who choose to carry, either on their person or in the vehicle, need to study the laws before they go somewhere. One can get from Florida to Utah, (and on to Idaho,) carrying concealed, legally, all the way - if they are careful about their rout. While I do not favor a shotgun as a weapon, it worked in the case we have been observing. I hate to admit it. I also hate to say this, but, sometimes, if you draw to an inside straight, you hit the straight. Not the way to bet, but sometimes it works. That is the nature of life.

I am releaved, for the victims in this case. I hope it gets better for them. They have seen their share of Hell. I feel for those little girls, especially.

OK, and I wonder if mommy shot the bad guy, while he was trying to strangle Daddy. Wish I knew.

Ray D