Questions by Newbie to RVing

Smoky said:

Gary:

I would NOT have been happy with a 1500.? In 2003 I towed a 30 foot trailer with a 2500 Dodge RAM gas and it was barely adequate.? The trailer was chosen to be as light as possible, even foregoing slidouts... we had none.? The real culprit was not trailer weight but the weight of all the belongings we felt we needed to have along with us.? It is easy to underestimate what your loads are going to be.

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No lie Smoky.  That is why I keep insisting on folks using the trailer GVWR to compare with the truck tow rating.  Junk will always expand to meet the space to stuff it into. <Parkinson's Law, Corollary 24>

So am I correct in understanding that there is really no "safe" way to transport (when moving) more than 3 people (with or without small children) in a motorhome, other than special modifications?  Since there are only two cabin seats, it sounds like the third person would have to sit in a sideways facing seat that, even with a seatbelt, would not be totally safe. 

Just making sure I understand that.
Thanks again for all your friendly and helpful advice,
Gary

GaryB said:

So am I correct in understanding that there is really no "safe" way to transport (when moving) more than 3 people (with or without small children) in a motorhome, other than special modifications?

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With certain MH's, that's unfortunately correct.  I have seen many Class C's that DO have rear seatbelts on the dinette and/or 1-2 swivel lounge chairs; in a case like that, up to 3-4 people could be belted in the back along with the two in the front.  But again, so far I've only seen lap belts in the rear... remember that cars have had lap/shoulder belts mandatory (in primary seating positions) for over 35 years, and in the backseat for 15-20 years.  MH's are pretty far behind in that regard.  Aftermarket belt installation may be a possibility as mentioned, but the problem is that whatever design is installed will never have been crash tested (like manufacturer belts & airbags are)... you never know how/if aftermarket equipment will perform during a crash.

Tom said:

Hi Scotty, we could have used your expertise and knowledge in some prior discussions on child restraint seats, e.g. here and here.

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Well at least I'm here now and don't plan on leaving anytime soon.    If question of this nature come up in the future, feel free to send me a PM as I may not see the thread... Newcomers, General, and Motorhomes are about the only areas I regularly scan in my RV newbie wanderings.  ;D

I have seen many Class C's that DO have rear seatbelts on the dinette and/or 1-2 swivel lounge chairs; in a case like that, up to 3-4 people could be belted in the back along with the two in the front.  But again, so far I've only seen lap belts in the rear... remember that cars have had lap/shoulder belts mandatory (in primary seating positions) for over 35 years, and in the backseat for 15-20 years.

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To push this peanut down the road a bit more:

1.  That dinette belting does not seem all that wonderful, if the belted passenger is facing a table.  In a 50 mph crash that table edge would be a helluva hostile object.  A dinette position belt would be decent protection only if the table were retacted or lowered.

2.  I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the only way to safely transport kids in RVing is in a SUV, crew cab pickup, or a passenger van.  There the rear seat moorings and safety harnesses have to met full DOT standards including testing.  There also is no temptation to get up and move about a moving vehicle.  ["Mom, I just gotta go NOW!!]

Carl Lundquist said:

1.? That dinette belting does not seem all that wonderful, if the belted passenger is facing a table.? In a 50 mph crash that table edge would be a helluva hostile object.

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Very true... with most infant/toddler carseats (hence young children that don't need the legroom), the table would need to be lowered for the safest installation.

Carl Lundquist said:

2.? ?I am slowly coming to the conclusion that the only way to safely transport kids in RVing is in a SUV, crew cab pickup, or a passenger van.

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For rear seating, you are 100% correct.  Just about any carseat should be safe when installed in the FRONT cab passenger seat with lap/shoulder belts (airbags disabled in newer models)... but let's be honest, that doesn't happen too often.  And even in those cases, then you have an adult seated in back at higher risk for injury.  Kind of a lose/lose situation. 

That all said, I don't think MH's are involved in high speed crashes too often.  They're big, visible, and are usually moving much slower than the average traffic flow.  All of those factors improve your odds greatly.  But since there really is no scientific data on the subject (that I know of anyway), that's all speculation.

In answer to the mileage question, I just completed an 8521.4 mile? trip across 19 States and Canada.? We flew to Indiana to pick up the Class B+ (a class C with no cabover bed) Lexington 283 GTS and ended up back home in Alaska two months later.? We covered every type of road system and terrain and all weather conditions.? The best mileage we got was 11.3 mpg, the worst was 8.4 mpg, with an overall average of 9.63 mpg for the whole trip.? That is with the Ford V10 gas, auto tranny with tow/haul. No Toad.? The unit is 29 1/2 feet long.? The motorhome has three seat belts located on the sofa, none at the dinette.? Average price per gallon for the trip was $3.058 with the highest price paid being in Canada at $1.26 (Canadian) per liter.? We started the trip April 4 and arrived in Anchorage June 10.? We love the motorhome BTW.

As far as child safety: not sure about trailier/5th wheelers, but as far as a MH, we had a class C when my kids were younger.  It had seat belts on the couch and at the dinette.  I place my younger daughters (3 yo's till they were 8) in full car seats using the standard seat belts on the couch tightened as much as I could.  The seats wouldn't move.  Once we were rear ended comming down Snoqualmie Pass during "Extream Conditions" traffic warnings.  The guy took off my rear bumper, spare tire and bent the frame.  The blow darn near knock us off the road (we were only going ~25mph at the time)  The girls in the car seats didn't even notice (perhaps because they were focused on the movie they were watching).  We've receintly upgraded now to a class A.  The girls are much bigger now and don't require a car seat.  They are, however, required to be in their seat belts whenever we're moving.

Gas mileage and towability have always been on my front burner.  When I had my Dodge Ram 2500 4X4 with the Cummins I would get 9-14 mpg towing a 5r.  I also have a little 6X10 enclosed motorcycle trailer I haul to the race track or on non-5r trips.  Its profile places part of it above the cab of my truck.  I would get 12 to 14 mpg with that configuration.  When I had nothing back there I would get between 17 and 20 mpg.  I figure if you find a way to cheat the wind, maybe like a HiLo trailer or something you would be better off.  I have since switched to an older Dodge Ram, 4X4, Gas, V10 in preparation for retirement and the diesel looks like a hybrid in comparison.  Towing the 5r I get 5 to 8 mpg and without I climb to a lofty 10-14 mpg tho mostly 10-11 mpg.  Wife says the fuel penalty is saved in the $5-6000 dollar savings over the diesel option.  Performance wise I would vote for the diesel every time, go with a 2500/3500.  I like the shortbed so I can explore offroad.  A towing package is only as good as the sum of its parts.  Weight, power and aerodynamics all play a big role.  Small things like tire pressures can give you 1-2 mpg or take it.  Going down the road the diesel pulls hills better and I am able to maintain a road speed without stress to the engine with the diesel.  I can fill up the V10 $.20 per gallon cheaper which is a good thing.  The Ford V10 and all of the diesels can have their ECU's flashed which provides more power and better fuel mileage.  The half ton pickup is a good truck for general work but it does limit your options in both weight and towing capacity.  I would think about this before purchasing as well as the engine configuration.  When we get our MH, if that is our choice then, it will be diesel.  It will be a choice not due to status but more to having a really good tool to do the job and yes I will pay more at the pump and at the time of purchase.  I am not an expert by any means but IMHO these are the choices I would make based on the experiences I have had.  Hope this helps and have a great time on the road!  Phil 

My advice to somebody that drives honda accords and thinks fuel is high priced is to get a popup and see if they really like to camp at all. To got out and buy a tow rig and trailer only to find out it might not be for you would be a real waste of money. Plus your really going to find out in a hurry just how expensive fuel is. JMHO good luck in whatever you choose to do .

To add my 2 bits - Our last trip (about 3000 miles from Memphis to Austin and back, then on to the Smokies and back in 3 weeks) we averaged 12.2MPG. The actual milage dropped to the mid 11's when the trailer was hooked up - actually dropped to around 8MPG going up the Cumberland in eastern TN. Looking at todays fuel prices, I find that in may cases, Diesel is back at or just below regular unleaded again, but I don't expect that to last long .... someone someplace will fart cross-wise in front of a polar bear and folks on wall street will freek and up goes the price again.

I would strongly recommend you look at renting a few different setups for a weekend at a time so you can get your feet wet in the RV world and it will also help you make up your mind as to what would be the best combination for you. For me, I believe I have the best of all worlds with the F350 Crew Cab and a 37' Fifth Wheel .. but that's my personal opinion. I have no doubts that there are many who think their setup is the most ideal, be it MH and Toad, or TV and Bumper Tow or TV and 5W - but in the end, it is 100% personal perference / what you can afford / what you are comfortable handling.

Best of luck in your decision making.

Larry
Larry

Thanks again all, for the great advice!!!

Jake (and others who have owned a TT) - does a TT handle much worse than, say a 5th wheel or  MH?  I've heard that but didn't know if that's overblown or not. 

Also I noticed that most of the "lightweight" RVs seem to be travel trailers (not 5ers).  I've not seen too many "lightweight" fifth wheels.  Am I missing something?

I've come to the conclusion that I'll probably need some type of pull-along (TT or 5er) since my family would get restless sitting at a campsite for too long.  Also safety while riding (seat belts) with my son is important to me.  But since I don't have a tow vehicle, that complicates things.  Of course, I'll take your advice and rent a few times before I buy.  I'm just trying to understand things better in advance.

Happy trails!
Gary

Gary,

I've never pulled a 5th wheel so I can't compare it to pulling a TT.  I don't feel any sway pulling my TT and I feel in control at all times.  My wife made the comment that the truck rides just as well pulling the trailer as when it is not.  I will sometimes feel a pressure wave from a passing semi truck but it hasn't been anything severe or a cause of concern for me. Most semis do not cause this to occur and I can't figure out why some push air and others do not.  I suspect you would feel this pressure wave pulling a TT or a 5th wheel. 

Jake

Most semis are have properly mounted spoilers which modify and ameliorate the shock wave of the truck.  That materially improves their fuel mileage and makes them much more pleasant to be passed by.  In my experience the worst offenders are large panel vans, commerial buses, and, yes, motorhomes.

Thanks again all.  Wow, somebody from this forum could make some money and do a great service by summarizing much of the salient information and experiences on forum into a concise handbook that would target beginners and advanced RVs alike.  The tough part would be categorizing all the stuff neatly into chapters such as "RV mechanical systems", "Types of RVs", etc.  Would make a great handbook!

Here's another dumb question.  What type of theft-deterrent features do TTs or 5ers have to keep somebody in a truck from hooking up in campground and then driving away while the owners are away in their tow vehicle?  I'd hate to return to the campground and find that my entire home has been stolen!  I'm guessing the supports that come down to balance the trailer must lock somehow to prevent that.

Gary

do a great service by summarizing much of the salient information and experiences on forum into a concise handbook that would target beginners and advanced RVs alike.

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Hi Gary,

Check out our library to see how some of this information is already collated and categorized. Click the Library button above.

Gary,
I haven't heard of TT theft at campgrounds or storage being a big problem but I suppose it does happen on occasion.Here is a possible trailer lock method:  http://www.lockitt.com/TrailerCouplerlocks.htm
There are probably similar items for 5th wheels.
Jake

Here's another dumb question.  What type of theft-deterrent features do TTs or 5ers have to keep somebody in a truck from hooking up in campground and then driving away while the owners are away in their tow vehicle?  I'd hate to return to the campground and find that my entire home has been stolen!  I'm guessing the supports that come down to balance the trailer must lock somehow to prevent that.

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In a campground?  Knowing your neighbors helps no end.  Just like any neighborhood, nosy alert neighbors are the main deterrent to sneak thieves and burglars.

In storage?  A good hitch lock is about as good as you can do.  Get one that blocks the coupler or pin completely.  Like most such things, the trick is to secure your unit better and more obviously than your neighbors.  Make the thieves choose other victims.

Jake - great to hear that your TT handles nicely.  That was my main concern about getting a TT as compared to a 5er.  By way, how do trailer brakes work?  Do you need to use two sets of brakes (trailer brakes and vehicle brakes) when towing a TT?  I like the idea of a TT since it doesn't lock me into getting a pickup truck (can get a proper SUV instead).

All - I hate to ask, but can you explain how I go about determining what tow vehicle I need for a certain TT?  I hear there are other considerations (besides just weight) such as axle ratio, brakes, etc.  That's where I get really confused.  I looked at the example by Tom Jones in Library.  For example, the Forest River 28A TT has ship weight of 5340 lbs, axle weight of 4800 lbs and hitch weight of 540 lbs.  Can I just add the 5340 + 500 lbs personal supplies + 500 lbs propane/water = 6340 lbs?  Then if I add 15% safety factor, I get 7291 lbs.  Does that mean that any vehicle with a tow rating of at least 7291 lbs will be sufficient, or is it more complicated than that?  For instance, a Toyota 4Runner SR5 2WD has towing capacity of 7300 lbs.  Am I correct that vehicle would be adaquate (although barely)?

Thanks again!  Last question of the day for me!
Gary

Keep the calcuations simple.? ?If you do not have a scaled weight of the trailer loaded for travel, use the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating of the unit.? ?That is a maximum loading number required on the DOT plate on the trailer.

Use a safety factor of 10% for the tow rating, so that the required minimum tow rating of your truck would be GVWR of the trailer divided by 90% (0.9).? In the mountain and Pacific west use 20%,? the trailer GVWR divided by 80% for the minimum truck tow ratings.

Go to the tow specs of the truck you are looking for.? ?Trailer Lifes tables are an excellent source.? Find them on their website at http://www.trailerlife.comwww.trailerlife.com.? Look in the TECH section.

Gary,

Check out this website for the Tekonsha Prodigy brake controller:  www.tekonsha.com
There are other controllers but the Prodigy is very easy to install.  If you get a truck with the tow package, it will be prewired for the controller with a pigtail connector located somewhere under the dash near the steering wheel.  You can purchase a matching connector that plugs into the tow vehicles pigtail on one end and the Prodigy brake controller on the other end. You will have to find a place to mount the brake controller on the face of the dash board or just underneath the dashboard,  It needs to be where you can access it for brake adjustment.  The web site above should be able to explain it better than I can.  Other controllers work pretty much the same way. When you apply the tow vehicles brake, the brake controller applies proportional braking to the trailer.

As to your second question, your weight estimations for the TT are pretty close. I have the Forest River Cherokee 28A and my loaded TT weight is 6120 lbs, pretty close to your estimate of 6340 lbs.  Someone else will have to cover the Toyota 4 runner capability. 

Jake