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Author Topic: Direcway Roof Mounts Info  (Read 15874 times)

Ron

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Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« on: April 05, 2005, 05:31:14 PM »
Guess that cheese will be extra sharp by next year. ;D ;D

Karl,

Let me do some checking around for what is now available for roof mounts.  Last I heard the mounts like Bob's and mine are still available.

Sure does make setup easier.
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Tom

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Re: Bob Buchanan checking in . . .
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2005, 08:48:20 PM »
I'd be interested in a roof mount too Ron, although I'm really gun shy about drilling holes in my roof. Maybe a job for Moab?
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Karl

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Re: Bob Buchanan checking in . . .
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2005, 10:23:22 PM »
Tom,
Holes are merely voids without substance :) Haven't you heard about Liquid Nails, pop rivets, contact cement, or duct tape??? Seriously, my main concern would be finding a substantial footing for the mount, which may require a large baseplate of some sort, or at least knowledge of where the main structural supports are located.   
Karl (Cheesehead) Kolbus   Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy cow ...what a ride!"

Ron

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Re: Bob Buchanan checking in . . .
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2005, 11:17:24 PM »
I'd be interested in a roof mount too Ron, although I'm really gun shy about drilling holes in my roof. Maybe a job for Moab?
I have inquiries as to the availability of two different mounts one like Bob Terry and I have and another that can be seen in the attached photo.  This roof mount has not been painted yet when photo was taken. Will let you knowmore details as I get them.
l
« Last Edit: April 05, 2005, 11:22:14 PM by Ron »
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Tom

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Re: Bob Buchanan checking in . . .
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2005, 11:27:12 PM »
Karl

You have to understand that we lost the entire roof of our Pace Arrow. A sad story for one evening over a Guiness. But it left me paranoid about leaks. Yes, I've used and have access to some excellent sealants, but duct tape  ???  ;D
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Tom

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Re: Bob Buchanan checking in . . .
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2005, 11:28:11 PM »
Interesting Ron, thanks for posting the photo. I haven't seen what yours/Terry's looks like to be able to compare.
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Ron

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Re: Bob Buchanan checking in . . .
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2005, 11:38:04 PM »
Photos of my mount are attached.
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Tom

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Re: Bob Buchanan checking in . . .
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2005, 12:04:29 AM »
Thanks for the additional photos Ron.
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Karl

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Re: Bob Buchanan checking in . . .
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2005, 10:15:08 AM »
Yeah Ron, Thanks for the photos! And Tom, I've got the Guinness if you've got the time :) O.k., forget the duct tape.
Karl (Cheesehead) Kolbus   Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy cow ...what a ride!"

Tom

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Re: Bob Buchanan checking in . . .
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2005, 10:18:36 AM »
The Guiness sounds inviting Karl. BTW I have a  roll of double sided tape I can use instead of duct tape.
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Ron

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Re: Bob Buchanan checking in . . .
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2005, 11:12:56 AM »
Interesting on the roof mounts.  My mount has those black handels for adusting the level.  We leveled it when we installed it, with the coach level, and  I haven't had to level it since. I do have a level on the mount which always shows level when the coach is level.  I have checked the mast for plumb using a fence post level a few times but it has never required adjustment.  Level the coach and the mast is plumb.
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Karl

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Re: Bob Buchanan checking in . . .
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2005, 01:02:08 PM »
Ron,
Good point. In theory and in practice, you shouldn't need to level it as there will only be one combination of azimuth and elevation that is correct. But, let's say you went to dump and returned to the same spot. Yes, you'd have to realign but the original settings should be very close to correct. I too level the mount before doing any other adjustments. Also, I've noticed that the highest receive signal strength is not always the best thing to have when adjusting the skew. Sometimes I'll have to adjust the elevation slightly to get a pass. Anyone else run into that?
Karl (Cheesehead) Kolbus   Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy cow ...what a ride!"

Ron

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Re: Bob Buchanan checking in . . .
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2005, 01:24:29 PM »
Karl,

With the roof mount if the coach is level the mount is level and the mast is plumb.  I have checked several times but have never readjusted since installation of the mount.  I have on a couple ocassions noticed the levels on the mount showing an unlevel condition.  Just asked my driver to relevel the coach and after she did that all was level.  Reason the coach was unlevel was one of the jacks sunk into the ground.

Yes I have found that to pass cross pol one may have to adjust either the Azmuth or elevation.  Doesn't happen often though.
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DonJordan

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Re: Bob Buchanan checking in . . .
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2005, 01:41:14 PM »
Ron,

How about splitting off this fairly long thread on DirectWay antennas from the "Bob Buchanan is checking in..." thread and renaming it to "DirectWay antenna roof mounts" or something similar?  It would make it easier for anyone who might have an interest in the subject to find it.  ;D
Don Jordan.

Ron

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2005, 01:51:22 PM »
Thanks for reminding me Don.  I had planned on doing that earlier this morning but guess I got caught up in answering messages and such and forgot to.
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DonJordan

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2005, 04:13:38 PM »
Thanks for reminding me Don. I had planned on doing that earlier this morning but guess I got caught up in answering messages and such and forgot to.

Glad to be of help  ;D ;D ;D.
Don Jordan.

Bob Buchanan

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Re: Bob Buchanan checking in . . .
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2005, 06:34:36 PM »
Karl:

But, let's say you went to dump and returned to the same spot. Yes, you'd have to realign but the original settings should be very close to correct. I too level the mount before doing any other adjustments. Also, I've noticed that the highest receive signal strength is not always the best thing to have when adjusting the skew. Sometimes I'll have to adjust the elevation slightly to get a pass. Anyone else run into that?

In the early days we mounted the house roof mast and dish on a 2x4' piece of plywood on the ground and got it close to level with shims - then fine tuned with two separated nuts on each mast bolt. Fine tuning when we first started using tripods was done the same way (before the CofG offsets were introduced vs. just a plate on top of the pod). I found myself fine tuning the elevation (after peaking the azimuth) by tweaking the elevation up or down - which in turn moved it to a different elevation than called for from the zip code.

However, this only told me that I wasn't right on with a vertical mast. If the mast is close to perfectly vertical, the readings from the zipcode (or Lat/Long) will work every time. And that follows through with cross pol. The reason I have enjoyed the roof mount that Ron and Terry also use (other than convenience) is the ability to level the mast quickly and very accruately. Since using this roof mount, I have "never" had to adjust skew to pass cross pol. Actually, in the 3 plus years that I have been using the Direcway dish - I have never adjusted the skew to pass cross pol. I attribute that to finding ways to make that mast as close to vertical as possible.

My rig doesn't have auto levelers - and I only make it level enough to make my frig door not swing either way when open. So each time I set up, I use the 4 cranks plus leveling bubbles on the dish mount to do that final level. Takes from 5 to 10 seconds max. If I go the dump, or move the rig to and from the same spot for whatever reason, I just lower the dish (leaving the elevation and skew as is) and readjust the azimuth and frig door on my return. It then quickly passes cross pol again.
Bob (fulltimer - Rocklin, CA residency)
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Ron

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2005, 06:44:17 PM »
The only area that I have had to adjust az or elevation to get Xpol is in Mt.  Even with the mast plumb.  But MT is in the red and green zone for Sat 117.
 
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Tom

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2005, 06:58:52 PM »
Bob/Ron

You're absolutely right about levelling for a vertical mast. A few days ago I moved my tripod from the front yard (where Jim Dick had been using it) to my neighbor's rear yard. The only thing I did was make sure the tripod was level i.e. the mast was vertical, and no other adjustments were needed.

Edit: Added photo of dual coax entering neighbor's house through window.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2005, 07:46:31 PM by Tom »
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Ron

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2005, 08:07:43 PM »
More than once I have helped others having difficulty getting proper alignment of the Satellite and the only problem was they didn't have the mast plumb.  If I help somebody I usually check to insure the mast is plumb.
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Karl

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2005, 08:13:10 PM »
Bob,
Point(s) well taken everyone. And Tom, you'd better remove those two pic's of your dish. I know someone who shall remain nameless (rhymes with Bob Buchanan), who might show up with a tape measure to check for 6' height. ;D Incidentally, those jugs sure make good martini dispensers, don't they?
Karl (Cheesehead) Kolbus   Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy cow ...what a ride!"

Ron

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2005, 08:16:37 PM »
I'm pretty sure that Tom eyeb balled it and confirmed it is 6'.  Must be a illusion caused by the photo. ;D ;D
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Tom

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2005, 08:48:44 PM »
The dish in both pics is way higher than dishes I've seen installed at other houses locally. In fact, some I've seen are below the level of the bottom of my tripod.
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Ron

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2005, 09:07:07 PM »
See I told you Tom had eye balled it and found it to be acceptable. ;D
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Tom

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2005, 09:18:51 PM »
LOL Ron, next time I'm out in the bass boat I'll have to remember to take my camera and take a shot of one of those "below ground level" DW dishes. You just have to see it, and I cpuldn't adequately describe it in words.
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Ron

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2005, 09:39:26 PM »
Looking forward to the photos.
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Jeff

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2005, 05:25:12 PM »
Ron, Bob, Tom:

I have until later this year to decide what I want to do for internet access on the road but your discussion piqued my interest.

I have several questions for the group:

1. Is this the dish that costs around $1500.00 to acquire and $60/mo? What are the upload/download speeds?

2. Do you have two antennaes, one on the coach and one for portable use?

3. Do you have to climb up on the roof each time you set up the sat or can you access it from within your coach?

4. What were the cost/benefits that led you to this system over the Datastorm?

Thanks,

Ron

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2005, 06:35:12 PM »
Jeff,

I have until later this year to decide what I want to do for internet access on the road but your discussion piqued my interest.
I have several questions for the group:


I will try to answer your questions in order written.

1. Is this the dish that costs around $1500.00 to acquire and $60/mo? What are the upload/download speeds?

The upload/download speeds vary depending on several things and each individules system/setup.  In my case my download speeds vary from 1800kbps to as low as 600Kbps  Upload speads are slower about 70Kbps to as low as 25Kbps.  The fact is this also depends on how it is being tested.  I use testmy.net
I just tested and upload was 48Kbps download was 700Kbps.  I have tested on ocassions at uploads of 105Kbps and Downloads as high as 2400Kbps.  However this is not the normal.

2. Do you have two antennaes, one on the coach and one for portable use?

I use a roof mount.  I carried m a tripod around for over a year after I got the roof mount and didn't use it so I sold the tripod.  I only have one dish.  On this dish I have added what they call Bird on a wire for DTV reception in addition to the internet.  Others use a tripod mount.  I am not aware of anyone that has a roof mount and carries a tripod.

3. Do you have to climb up on the roof each time you set up the sat or can you access it from within your coach?

In my case I climb the latter onto the roof to set up.  Takes me about 5 minutes to setup.  I do know a few folks with roof mounts that have a hatch in the ceiling of their coach through which they access to set up.

4. What were the cost/benefits that led you to this system over the Datastorm?

The DataStorm costs $4000 - $5000 bucks and there are others that cost even more.  The monthly cost is $100 bucks because they are on a business account.  The Datastorm is a very good system and it is automatic.  As Ned or phil or Russ sets up by pushing a button I and others do a manual setup.

The manual system with tripod with offset mount for dish  runs $1500 which includes training for set up DW6000, and OPI meter for tuning in on the Satellite.  Monthly cost is $60.  These are also very good systems but you do have to set them up manually. Set up is not difficult.

Bottom line is what you want to pay.  Both the DataStorm and the manual system I have use direcway so upload/download performance is about the same.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2005, 06:40:29 PM by Ron »
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Jeff

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2005, 05:26:04 PM »
Thanks Ron, I'll go find out what Sue has planned on her wish list and see if it adds up to five grand or so. ;) ;) ;)

Ron

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2005, 05:44:30 PM »
Thanks Ron, I'll go find out what Sue has planned on her wish list and see if it adds up to five grand or so. ;) ;) ;)

With the roof mount my manual set up time is around five minutes.  With a tripod setup would be less than 15 minutes as I recall.
The biggest difference would be leveling. With the roof mount when we level the coach the roof mount is level.  Tripod you have add the leveling step.
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blueblood

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2005, 06:54:24 PM »
Thanks Ron, I'll go find out what Sue has planned on her wish list and see if it adds up to five grand or so. ;) ;) ;)

FWIW/FYI You can buy the DW4000 for about a $100+ on e-Bay or elsewhere(I have one for sale) . The rapid spread of DSL and Cable is providiing a lot of DW inventory.
Leo

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2005, 07:48:44 PM »
Hey Ron:

Quote
With the roof mount my manual set up time is around five minutes.
Quote

I've told you "at least" a million times -- or more -- over and over -- time and time again -- about exaggerating <g>.
Bob (fulltimer - Rocklin, CA residency)
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Bob Buchanan

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2005, 08:00:01 PM »
Quote

FWIW/FYI You can buy the DW4000 for about a $100+ on e-Bay or elsewhere(I have one for sale) . The rapid spread of DSL and Cable is providiing a lot of DW inventory.

Quote

If anyone goes after an eBay setup, they want to be careful that they get a good return policy if there is a problem. For example, the transmitter may not work (mine went out a few weeks ago). Also, the seller should post that all bills have been paid to Direcway. Otherwise, I understand that Direcway will not commision the modems until the former owners account is clear. Would suggest that potential buyers ask that question if it isn't posted.

However, the DW4000 prices are great and if someone is not going to network and just wants a vanilla dish, it's an excellent way to get 2-way. They "can" still network, but it's such a hassle compared to the DW6000. I also have a set of DW4000 modems I plan to sell on eBay.
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Ron

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2005, 08:05:40 PM »
I also have a set of DW4000 modems I plan to sell on eBay.

I have a complete DW4000 system for sale too.  This includes dish, lnb, and modems. ;D
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Karl

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2005, 09:14:12 AM »
Bob,

Please, tell us again about that "easy setup" demo you gave some RV'ers ;D ;D ;D
Karl (Cheesehead) Kolbus   Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy cow ...what a ride!"

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2005, 01:04:14 PM »
Ron

>>Tripod you have add the leveling step.<<


Also the unpacking & assembling.


Terry
At Yuma, AZ

Ron

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2005, 01:08:41 PM »
Ron

>>Tripod you have add the leveling step.<<


Also the unpacking & assembling.


Terry
At Yuma, AZ

In any case it sure beats trying to use a phone connection while RVing.
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Ned

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2005, 03:43:50 PM »
I really like my one button setup, especially when it's raining ;)
-- Ned -- Fulltimer 1997-2013
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Bob Buchanan

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2005, 03:56:15 PM »

Please, tell us again about that "easy setup" demo you gave some RV'ers ;D ;D ;D


You just "had" to bring that up, didn't you? <g>
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Smoky

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2005, 05:11:31 PM »
Ron:


I had the same reaction, if you have to go to all that trouble up on the roof, why not just use the tripod.  I have used a tripod for Direct TV for a year and it never takes more then 60 seconds to get it running, unless I am trying to shoot through a forest.  Of course, I use the hand held signal meter.  Do they make signal meters for the Directway, or can the same Direct TV meter be used?

If so, I would much rather use the tripod.

In fact my tripod would now be available for satellite Internet, as my new coach will have the Direct TV dome with in motion automation.

Like someone else expressed, I am very leery about messing with the roof once the coach leaves the factor.
Smoky S  Ham radio - W3PY

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Ron

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2005, 05:39:09 PM »
Smoky,

Nothing wrong with a tripod set up or the roof mount.  It is personal choice.  There are positives and negatives either way.  I prefer the roof moun since it folds down for travel and the big dish is stored right there.  The tripod is more accessable since yuou don't have to et on the roof to set up.  However the dish and tripod need to be stored in a bay when traveling.

You can use the screemer meter commonaly used for DTV but the OPI or Birddog meters are easier to use when searching for the correct Satellite.  I do know some folks that use the screemer.

I have had no problem with the roof mount on the coach.  One just has to install it properly.  There are probably more tripod setups than roof mounts but that is just a guess.

A heavy duty surveyers tripod workes very well.  That is what I had prior to the roof mount.
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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2005, 05:45:34 PM »
I am leaning more and more towards satellite.  If there are good deals on ebay will I regret getting the 4000 instead of the 6000?  What are the differences?
Smoky S  Ham radio - W3PY

The magic of a campfire
where the fish get bigger
the mountains get higher
the hike was uphill both ways
and new friends become old friends

2005 KSDP3910 Newmar Kountry Star
Toad - Taurus wagon w/ axle lock
On our way to the Poudre River in Colorado for the summer!

Karl

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2005, 05:47:35 PM »
Bob,

Of course I did! You wouldn't want Joe Lacey to have to take all the ribbing, would you? Anyway, I didn't tell them anything about it and I'm sure no one will ask ;D
Karl (Cheesehead) Kolbus   Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy cow ...what a ride!"

Ron

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2005, 06:25:18 PM »
I am leaning more and more towards satellite.  If there are good deals on ebay will I regret getting the 4000 instead of the 6000?  What are the differences?

The DW4000 system the DW software is on your computer on the DW6000 the DW software in in the modem.  DW6000 is easier to netwrk.

I have a DW4000 system complete (modems, dish, LNB, ) I will be selling. 
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Bob Buchanan

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2005, 11:02:57 AM »
If so, I would much rather use the tripod.

In fact my tripod would now be available for satellite Internet, as my new coach will have the Direct TV dome with in motion automation.

Like someone else expressed, I am very leery about messing with the roof once the coach leaves the factor.


There is a lot more to the set up scenario than has been covered on this thread, Smoky - so plan on a lot more info gathering before making that decision. For example:

o The Direcway (there is no "t" in Direcway) dish weighs much more than the DTV dish and sits of a mast that has a larger diameter. The overturning moment is much greater and could not be supported on the standard DTV dish. Many alternatives have been tried - and the heavy duty surveyors tripod has become the most popular - tho there are a ton of other types of ground mounts out there.

The Motosat people posted a list FCC regulations a year or so ago for all those that had been beta test users of their system during the final testing process. This was before the FCC approval of what they were selling. All users had to sign a form authenticating that they were in FCC complience as such after the FCC OKed the sale of their product. One of the items on that list was that the bottom lip of the dish had to be 6 feet off the ground. No one has seen this other than what Motosat claims.

Many went to manual roof mounts vs. lower ground mounts to make sure they were in complience. Others went to tripods to get them up to 6 feet. Those selling tripod systems today claim that that requirement is 5 feet. They may be doing this because in order to get it up to 6 feet, they would have to go to a taller tripod - and heavy duty tripods that tall are around $100 more money.

o Pointing is much more critical - remember, you are transmitting as well as receiving. If the the size of the DTV target was the size of your rig steering wheel, the size of the DW target would be that of a silver dollar. The user must pass a test called cross pol that tests the final alignment and if not perfectly on target, it does not pass and until it passes, it does not work.

The setup in getting to making the final adjustments is much more cumbersome with a tripod. Think of setting a 60 pound dish on top of a 5 foot tripod in a fair amount of wind. Believe me, it can be a bear. Not to mention having to do the critcial pointing mentioned above. The roof mount several us here use allow the dish to be permantly mounted to the mast - then just lowered during travel. So when arriving, it's just a matter of pulling it upright and placing a pin in place to make it secure. So one gets to final tuning "much" quicker. There are then 4 handle cranks that allow for final leveling in seconds. Those with leveling jacks on their rig only do this once.

So FWIW, I have been doing this for over 3 years now, both with Tripod and other ground mounts and for the past year with a manually adjusted roof mount -- and can say for sure that the roof mount is tons easier to set up - and there is nothing to store in compartments. When I climb up the ladder, I take with me 1 rachet wrench, a compass, and my OPI meter.

o The DTV analog meter can be used, but has several important drawbacks. The OPI (outdoor pointing interface) made by Direcway gives digital SS readings vs. analog. It also only registers SS when on the correct bird vs. the DTV analog registers every bird it sees. And finally, the OPI displays results of the cross pol test. Of course, I am a solo RVer - so have no one to tell me what is on my computer screen and I don't want to carry a laptop on the roof or to a tripod. Remember, you must exactly peak the SS and pass cross pol -- not just get close.

o Holes in a roof. There many there already (air, TV antennae, frig vent, solar, and so forth - so if done correctly, it should not be problem.

The good news about the tripod mount is that you can set it up anywhere around the rig to avoid a tree or whatever. Also, if you need to move your rig to get propane, dump tanks or whatever, you do not have to take down the dish (making sure no one steals it while you're gone <g>). Also, a tripod mount would be less expensive. A good roof mount will cost $4-600 whereas a good tripod can be had for less than $100. And you have already made a point of the other good news about a tripod - in that it does not require drilling more holes in your rig roof.

So again -- you may want to plan on a lot of research before buying that tripod vs. a roof mount. And you could also buy that little button that Motosat and Starband sell that will raise the dish automatically that sells for around $4-5,000.00 <g>.
Bob (fulltimer - Rocklin, CA residency)
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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2005, 11:46:29 AM »
Bob,

You forgot to mention it is not rocket science since you and I can do it most anybody can do it. ;D ;D ;D

The five foot measurement comes from the installer instructions. I have no idea where or who came up with the 6 ft measurement.

It does make the roof mount even nicer now that I have the hinge on the LNB arm.  No more removing the arm and using bungee cords to secure it.

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2005, 05:01:49 PM »
Hey Ron:


The five foot measurement comes from the installer instructions. I have no idea where or who came up with the 6 ft measurement.


As mentioned in my post, according to MotoSat, it came from the FCC. Here is that paragraph #5 in a document to their users in August of 2002 describing the FCC requirement:

QUOTE:
5. For large vehicles with roof mounts, the height of the bottom lip of the antenna when fully deployed must be at least six feet above the ground at all times, or six feet above a surrounding surface which a person may easily access.
UNQUOTE:


IF I recall, there was some discussion about the 5 foot thing in the installation manual -- in that it described the "Post" as planted on concrete or whatever for a home installation. But the point is, one of the main reasons a lot of users went to manual roof mounts (and the reason the designs began in the first place) was because of the threat of this 6 foot thingy posted in the above document. It is also exactly why we began experimenting with Tripods in the first place. So maybe that was a good thing . . .
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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2005, 05:33:00 PM »
Quote

FWIW/FYI You can buy the DW4000 for about a $100+ on e-Bay or elsewhere(I have one for sale) . The rapid spread of DSL and Cable is providiing a lot of DW inventory.

Quote

If anyone goes after an eBay setup, they want to be careful that they get a good return policy if there is a problem. For example, the transmitter may not work (mine went out a few weeks ago). Also, the seller should post that all bills have been paid to Direcway. Otherwise, I understand that Direcway will not commision the modems until the former owners account is clear. Would suggest that potential buyers ask that question if it isn't posted.

However, the DW4000 prices are great and if someone is not going to network and just wants a vanilla dish, it's an excellent way to get 2-way. They "can" still network, but it's such a hassle compared to the DW6000. I also have a set of DW4000 modems I plan to sell on eBay.


Taking last part first, I have networked using AP with the DW4000 very successfully for years and in fact, I have provided Internet access to large rallies since 2003. On the modem registration, I find it best to ask poster for SN of the receive modem and call DW to check on status.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2005, 05:34:40 PM by blueblood »
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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2005, 07:57:12 PM »
Bob,

I spent about 3 hours today searching FCC rules and reg's and could find NOTHING related to height of the dish. There are power vs. distance curves on the rf transmit plane and references to minimum distances to humans at various power levels both in the workplace (a 6 minute average exposure) and thru incidental contact like a person walking by or standing in the transmit path (a 30 minute average exposure). Granted, the rules and reg's would take months to research thoroughly, but I'm leaning toward Motosat doing a CYA thing because of some people who may want to try roasting marshmallows with the rf.

Does anyone know the actual output of the transmitter???   
Karl (Cheesehead) Kolbus   Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy cow ...what a ride!"

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2005, 08:25:53 PM »
Good question Karl. Like you, I've previously poured over various regulations. One FCC "fact sheet" I kept in my bookmarks is here, but it doesn't specify a minimum height.

IIRC the transmit power is 1W.
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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2005, 08:57:16 PM »
Bob,

I spent about 3 hours today searching FCC rules and reg's and could find NOTHING related to height of the dish. There are power vs. distance curves on the rf transmit plane and references to minimum distances to humans at various power levels both in the workplace (a 6 minute average exposure) and thru incidental contact like a person walking by or standing in the transmit path (a 30 minute average exposure). Granted, the rules and reg's would take months to research thoroughly, but I'm leaning toward Motosat doing a CYA thing because of some people who may want to try roasting marshmallows with the rf.

Does anyone know the actual output of the transmitter???   

The output is 1 watt. I took the certification class from Hughes and in the flow downs from the FCC to Hughes during there licensing process, which they flowed down to us, was the 6 ft requirement. In these same documents, which we were required to sign, was a requirement for roof mounted RV's that the ladder to the roof be blocked and a sign posted warning of the danger. Most installers "borrowed" the sign developed by MotoSat and used the same wording.

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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2005, 09:19:06 PM »
I have never been successful in finding the 5 or 6 ft requirement in the FCC regs.  I believe that if the FCC was going insist this 5 or 6 ft requirement be met then it would have to be in the regs.  Unless somebody can produce a vaild referenc to a regulation requiring a 5 or 6 ft height requirement then I will continue to belive it is a good idea and is a DW requirement but not an FCC rule.
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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2005, 10:49:41 PM »
Karl:

I spent about 3 hours today searching FCC rules and reg's and could find NOTHING related to height of the dish.
.
.
Does anyone know the actual output of the transmitter???   

Many have searched over the past several years to no avail. Some say it was a CYA thing, others say it was because they feared what is now happening (tons of Tripod mounts being sold). However, I wondered how wise they would be to lie on a public forum about what the FCC requirements to Hughes really were in their proposed mobile dish venture via DataStorm.

Here is part of the heading of that doc. Note that it specifically reads that these are FCC rules vs. MotoSat or Hughes rules. The rules were prerequisites if Hughes was going to receive a license to allow DataStorm to market the mobile dish. So they were not FCC regulations as such, but rather a set of rules that Hughes had to follow in order to receive the license to allow DataStorm to sell the Motosat dish.

Prior to June of '02, they did not have that license as yet. Prior to that all MS sites were labeled beta test sites - even though the user paid pretty big bucks to become part of the beta program. Also, note that the rules were to apply to ANY dish sold by Hughes -- not just the MotoSat.

Quote:
These rules apply to the installation of all Temporary–Fixed Two-Way 0.74 m, 0.98 m and 1.2 m earth stations using the DIRECWAY service including those mounted and operated on vehicles, such as an emergency response vehicle or a consumer recreation vehicle.  A “Temporary-Fixed” earth station (TFES) is, according to the FCC rules, an earth station that changes its location (coordinates) anytime during a six-month period.  For the purposes of this document, all HNS earth stations using DIRECWAY service, mounted on a vehicle or truck or otherwise used as a transportable antenna for stationary operation, are considered TFES (Temporary-Fixed Earth Stations).
 
The FCC has imposed the following conditions on the FCC licenses held by Hughes Network Systems when operating, installing and deploying Temporary Fixed Earth Stations and is mandatory for all installations made within the Continental United States as well as Hawaii, Alaska, Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands and other U.S. territories.  These conditions are also required by HNS for all other installed locations using the DIRECWAY service (and may be supplemented by regulatory requirements in other jurisdictions) in order for Hughes Network Systems to meet its obligations to its space segment suppliers.
Unquote

I leaned toward thinking the FCC really set these rules for HNS because otherwise MotoSat had posted a lie about the FCC. That was the main reason I worked so hard to get my dish first on the tripod, then the roof mount. However, now, having seen at least 5 MotoSat dealers at QZ selling 5 foot tripod dishes along side of the Motosats -- I dont' have a clue <g>. Also, as far as I know, this is the only place one will find a reference to the 6 foot rule.

From what I have heard from those that know, the output is 1 Watt. The problem is not the power, but the concentration of the beam into such a small place that has the FCC worried.
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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2005, 11:20:41 PM »
Quote

FWIW/FYI You can buy the DW4000 for about a $100+ on e-Bay or elsewhere(I have one for sale) . The rapid spread of DSL and Cable is providiing a lot of DW inventory.

Quote

If anyone goes after an eBay setup, they want to be careful that they get a good return policy if there is a problem. For example, the transmitter may not work (mine went out a few weeks ago). Also, the seller should post that all bills have been paid to Direcway. Otherwise, I understand that Direcway will not commision the modems until the former owners account is clear. Would suggest that potential buyers ask that question if it isn't posted.

However, the DW4000 prices are great and if someone is not going to network and just wants a vanilla dish, it's an excellent way to get 2-way. They "can" still network, but it's such a hassle compared to the DW6000. I also have a set of DW4000 modems I plan to sell on eBay.


Taking last part first, I have networked using AP with the DW4000 very successfully for years and in fact, I have provided Internet access to large rallies since 2003. On the modem registration, I find it best to ask poster for SN of the receive modem and call DW to check on status.

Yes, I did too -- for about 3 years. I didn't say one couldn't network - just that it was more of a hassle than with the 6000. I was "very" reluctant to give up the 4000's as the 6000 would not increase my speed. I then began having more and more grief with ICS, WEP via ICS, and so forth. Another biggy for me was that I was using my big desktop as the ICS gateway - so all stations were dependant upon that machine in order to surf the net. When boondocking, I had to switch the USB from that machine and make my laptop the ICS gateway. And that was a hassle, sometimes more than others. Plus I also needed to keep both potential ICS gateways updated w/the latest DW SW.

Anyway, now that I can turn on or leave off any of the 2 to 4 machines in my network - and go right on the web is sure a tremendous improvement. And not having to deal with ICS makes my days much better. At QZ in January, I finally threw in the DW4000 towel in attempting to use ICS, WEP, and connect my friends to my system - while locking them out of other folders in my system.

Yes, that sounds like a great idea -- to get the SN and call DW.
Bob (fulltimer - Rocklin, CA residency)
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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2005, 11:47:13 PM »
Tom, Bob, et al,

I too looked thru 47 C.F.R. Section 1.4000 and found that it petains to placement of antennas on fixed locations as it relates to undue cost or unlawful prohibitions to people receiving an acceptable signal at the preferred location. Section 25 specifically relates to satellite communications, and that's where Bob's  mention of temporary installations is covered. The only reference to height I could find was an example that said you shouldn't place a transmitting antenna on the 10th floor of a building and aim it at the people in another office building on the 10th floor, or words to that effect.

In the final analysis, I would like to see someone from Hughes, Motosat, DirecWay, or anyone else actually show me where these restrictions on height exist. It may be a policy, but policy does not necessarily mean a point of law exists.   
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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2005, 12:12:26 PM »
Tom, Bob, et al,

I too looked thru 47 C.F.R. Section 1.4000 and found that it petains to placement of antennas on fixed locations as it relates to undue cost or unlawful prohibitions to people receiving an acceptable signal at the preferred location. Section 25 specifically relates to satellite communications, and that's where Bob's  mention of temporary installations is covered. The only reference to height I could find was an example that said you shouldn't place a transmitting antenna on the 10th floor of a building and aim it at the people in another office building on the 10th floor, or words to that effect.

In the final analysis, I would like to see someone from Hughes, Motosat, DirecWay, or anyone else actually show me where these restrictions on height exist. It may be a policy, but policy does not necessarily mean a point of law exists.   

FWIW- You are not the first who has pursued this questioning in this same manner. However, the problem is that the information in not in CFR's but in the licensing conditions to Hughes. I will quote here from a Hughes document dated October 30th 2002.

"The FCC has imposed a series of conditions on Hughes Network Systems (HNS) when installing, deploying, and operating DIRECWAY earth stations. These conditions have been applied to the DIRECWAY earth stations so as to protect children and adults from possible harm due to radiation from radio frequency transmissions."

"Hughes has established a corresponding set of requirements for the installation, deployment and operation of these earth stations."

"These requirements apply to the installation of all Temporary -Fixed Two-WAY .074 meter,,.098 meter and 1.2 meter earth stations[/b] using DIRECWAY service and that are vehicle mounted"

1. For large vehicles with roof mounts, the heigth of the bottom lip of the earth station when fully deployed msut be at least 6 feet above the ground at all times, or 6 feet above a surrounding surface which a person can easily access"

2.0 relates to barrier being present to roof access
3.0 relates to warning sign required
4.0 allows use after installation by a certified installer
5.0 restricts operation to a stationary vehicle
6.0 says " Temporary-Fixed DIRECWAY earth stations must not be installed , deployed, or used on any mounting where the lower lip of the antenna is less than 6 feet from the ground."

The TOS that you agree to as a part of using DW requires adherence to these requirements.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2005, 12:16:10 PM by blueblood »
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Re: Direcway Roof Mounts Info
« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2005, 01:20:59 PM »
Blueblood,

Thanks. Now it makes some sense.
Karl (Cheesehead) Kolbus   Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "...holy cow ...what a ride!"

 

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