New motor home and electrical questions

I just traded my Itasca Meridian for a new (to me) 2010 Winnebago Tour 42AD. I am at Lazydays in Tampa while the go through the punch list and have run into a problem and have a question.

The unit is equipped with an Onan EC30 Energy Command generator auto start. Past experience with the Meridian taught me to place the autostart unit in Auto mode. When the generator is needed it would start. When the generator was no longer needed, it would shut down, provided it had run for a minimum of 10 minutes. On the Tour, I tested the EC30 by disconnecting shore power, shutting the air conditioner off and setting the auto start unit to Auto. I then turned on the AC. The auto start generator light blinked a couple of times and the generator starter motor turned over for about a second. The EC30 then went from Auto the Manual and made no further attempts to start.

I manually started the generator and it ran without a problem. I tried to test Auto mode again. This time, when AC was called for, the generator started, but still switched from Auto to Manual. When AC was no longer required, the generator continued to run, since it was in manual mode.

An internet search found this condition was related to the start battery condition. I don?t think that is my problem since all of the batteries were replaced with identical new ones prior to the test. My tech here does not seem to be all that well versed in the system so I am going to ask for a specialist to see if (s)he can help.

This coach also has a newer EMS that I am not familiar with. It is an Intellitec Model 1000. The display is an LCD screen instead of the pilot lights and amperage readout unit that I am familiar with. The screen shows the source of power and the different loads. While on 50 amps, unlike my old unit, it shows current draw on each leg. When shore power is disconnected, the unit shows that I am connected to 50 amp shore power and leg 1 is drawing 1 amp. Is this normal? Shouldn?t it be showing as disconnected? I tried calling Intellitec, but speaking to a person there that knows the system is proving to be more og a challenge than I thought it would bd.

While I continue to look for experts here at Lazydays, can anyone offer any suggested from their experience or knowledge about these items? Thanks in advance for all of your responses.

Edit by John:  changed message icon to Topic Solved

The EC30 switches to Manual mode when any generator button is pressed (e.g. the genset Start button). Also happens if the coach is moved or movable, e.g. ignition on or tranny not in Park. Could any of these be it?

There are complex and sometimes baffling logic concerning what Onan calls the safety Signal, which is intended to prevent Auto-Start wehn potentially unsafe conditions exist. Onan doesn't know where the coach is or whether it actually moved when the ignition turned on or the tranny shifted, so they go to Manual mode and require that you "re-verify" that it is safe to engage auto start mode again. It even has a built in 30 day watch dog timer that requires re-verification after that time.  My guess is that you are running afoul of one of those "safety" verification checks, but not sure which one. Or if it is perhaps a false alarm. The EC30 manual covers the Safety Signal business, but it is somewhat vague on the specifics because it varies by installation.

You might get more help from Winnie Customer Support than from Onan and Intellitec.

I would just add that when I start the generator manually, while its in auto mode, I get a message on the control panel saying just that, "generator started manually, must be turned off manually".

Hope this helps a bit, and congrats on the Tour.

Stan

There was no button pushing or changing anything. I put the EC30 in Auto. The screwy logic about turning on the key all happens before it will go into Auto. I put the unit into Auto and turned on the AC. I didn't touch anything else in the coach. The EC30 tried for about a second to start the generator and then switched to manual.

I think the auto start issue is resolved. When I was testing, the house battery voltage was low. At one point it was around 12v. Since the RV has been traveling around while it was being repaired, it might not have been plugged in and the inverter was on. The auto start works fine when the house battery is higher. The tech also upped the lower limited for the batteries from 11.8 to 12.3. I guess I'll have to wait to test it further.

I finally got to leave a voicemail for Intellitec. Hopefully, I'll hear from them soon. If a wire for the rear view camera comes in tomorrow, all the other fixes should be done and, hopefully, we'll be on our way by Sunday (fingers crossed).

I reread one of my earlier posts and it sounded a bit harsh to me. If anyone read it that way, I apologize. I didn't intended it. My frustration level has been rising with this.

Here is where I currently am:

Here's what I have discovered so far. I just got 4 new NAPA 8231 wet cell batteries. Each one is about 100 amp hours so I have a total of at least 400 amp hours. According to the Dimensions inverter/charger manual, there is a charger profile setting for wet cells with more than 400 amp hours and another for less than 400 amp hours. It was set for less than 400. I changed it to more than 400 amp hours.

The settings for the Auto Gen were not even close to default, so I set them to default. I disconnected shore power and tested. The generator started when the thermostat called for AC and ran until the batteries reached the set point that the Auto Gen was looking for. The next time the thermostat wanted AC, the generator turned over for less than a seconds and the Auto Gen went to manual.

Thinking that nothing had changed, I reconnected to shore power, but I also put the Auto Gen in auto mode again. Even though I was connected to good shore power, the generator started the next time the thermostat called for AC. Thinking that maybe the Auto Gen was faulty, I swapped it out for the one in my old Meridian, which happens to be sitting next to my new one. When I retested, I got the same results.

The generator manually starts quickly and easily. Bearing in mind that batteries are new and fully charged, I don't think I have a low voltage problem at the generator. On the other hand, if the engine is running, the Auto gen works properly. I am assuming that is because the engine alternative is connected to the house battery via the isolator relay.

I think the generator is having a control board problem. One time it produced an error 32 message. This message says that it couldn't detect the generator rotating for more than 12 seconds when attempting to start. Is the control board is too fussy when it comes to battery voltage when starting? Does anyone know if this is an adjustable parameter?

Thanks to all for your suggestions.
Don't have any further information about the EMS, though.

mrschwarz said:

.. One time it produced an error 32 message. This message says that it couldn't detect the generator rotating for more than 12 seconds when attempting to start. Is the control board is too fussy when it comes to battery voltage when starting? Does anyone know if this is an adjustable parameter?..

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So you're getting a 32 error when you start the genny manually? - I would run that error code by Onan support.  I seriously doubt if you can adjust any of the error code parameters.

I've had error codes on my gen set before and its root cause was expensive - a bad inverter  :-\ (I think it was a 27 code?)

Yeah. I'm not sure if the error code was when it was in auto or manual. I was planning to test the system, walked into the coach to turn it on and that was what I saw. In my opinion, the generator should attempt to start regardless of the power left in the battery. After all, if the Auto Gen wants the generator to start and there's enough juice to turn it over, it should start. If there's not enough power to turn it over, it's stuck. If that's not what's going on, I wonder if there is a control problem.

I'm still here at Lazydays. I sure hope they find something soon.

You might want to download the EC-30 manual and installation instructions from Onan. The generator should definitely not start if shore power is present if it has been installed properly. Onan recommends using a  110 to 12v wall wart to supply a 12 v signal to the EC-30 as a sense lead for the presence of shore power. The manual also shows how to get the unit to test for the presence of AC power to see if it is working. I believe Winnebago provides this however it might have been missed. I installed an EC-30 wired unit in a previous class C and there are several safety tests you can perform from the menu. The EC-30 is a full featured unit unlike the skimmed down wireless unit but is fairly complex. I think reading the manual - even the installation part will provide you with considerable information to get the LD tech to correct the problems. Good luck,

I have read the manual so many times, that I can probably recite some sections from memory. I ran a test on the unit and it showed 110 volts present when it was supposed to. I haven't gone behind the breaker panel to make sure the transformer is there, but the unit said it was.

When the generator started while on shore power, I swapped units with the one from my old coach. I haven't tested it again (I'll do it with the LD tech), but all the other behaviors are still the same.

bobmacc said:

The generator should definitely not start if shore power is present if it has been installed properly.

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All of the motor homes I have owned have allowed the genset to start whether plugged into shore power or not. After a short warm up period, the ATS would disconnect the shore power and automatically switch to the genset. I have never heard of a genset that would not start just because the shore power was connected.

R

There actually are some that start the generator on loss of shore power. They may have an interlock on them to prevent starting the generator when on shore power.

John Hilley said:

There actually are some that start the generator on loss of shore power. They may have an interlock on them to prevent starting the generator when on shore power.

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What is the function of the ATS on those RV's? Or do they have one? What if you unplug from shore power and do not want the genset to start?

R

We all know that in the standard implementation of an ATS, it is entirely possible to start the generator while shore power is present.  We've probably all done it.  However, I think we need to remember what's being discussed here.

The purpose of the generator auto start feature is to create a source of 120vac power under prescribed conditions.  One of the standard conditions is 'low battery voltage', a second may be the 'call for air conditioning', and, I suspect, on the  'loss of shore power'.

To me, it only makes sense that if viable shore power is present, when the condition presents it self, that the system would be intelligent enough to determine that starting the generator was unnecessary to mitigate the condition, and it could/would be bypassed or aborted.

I have no experience with the feature.

Justlou is right. I can manually start the generator whenever I want, whether or not I am connected to shore power. The manual operation of the generator is working as it should. The problem I am having is when the Auto Start module decides it needs power from the generator. The only two conditions where that is supposed to occur are when the house battery voltage drops below a certain value or when the AC requires cooling. Since it's a lot easier to ask the AC for cooling than it is to reduce the battery voltage, that's the condition I have been using.

When connected to shore power, the Auto Start is supposed to ignore all requests. When I was connected to shore power and the AC system wanted cooling, the generator started. That happened either because the Auto Start didn't know shore power was available or it's broken. I swapped units, so most likely the Auto Start isn't broken. I haven't chased down the 110v sense yet (I'm going to let the tech do that). This malfunction shouldn't have anything to do with the generator. It should be in the Auto Start unit.

For those of you wondering about a shore power failure, if you think about it, it's the same condition as not plugging in at all, as far as the Auto Start is concerned. When we had a pooch, we would be plugged into shore power with the AC on. The Auto Start would be in auto mode. If the pedestal lost power and it was starting to get warm, the generator would start and the AC would run. Once the requirement was satisfied, the AC would shut down and the generator would shut off. If shore power was restored before the next requirement, the generator wouldn't start.

I am thinking that the failure to start and flipping back to manual is a generator problem, not an Auto Start one. The techs should be here in a little while. Let's see if I get one that can find the problem.

RLSharp said:

All of the motor homes I have owned have allowed the genset to start whether plugged into shore power or not. After a short warm up period, the ATS would disconnect the shore power and automatically switch to the genset. I have never heard of a genset that would not start just because the shore power was connected.

R

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Richard:
The discussion was related to the Onan EC-30 Automatic Generator Start (AGS) system and is really independent of the ATS. This AGS unit is designed so that it can be programmed to start the generator when a thermostat calls for heating or cooling, when shore power fails or when batteries need to be recharged. There are multiple possibilities for the programming options on the AGS. These options are usually programmed  to be activated when the specific conditions occur most of which would not occur if a coach was connected to working shore power. My comments referenced that. The generator on all RVs can likely be started on shore power - the EC-30 AGS provides the capability to activate the generator as described above in the absence of shore power or on the failure of shore power.

Bob

All's well. The wire gauge connecting the generator to the batteries was too small. They were replaced with 0000 cables and the problem was solved.

That's strange.  I've found that (on my unit at least) Winnie has done a very good job of engineering the electrics, vis-a-vis wire gauge.

mrschwarz said:

All's well. The wire gauge connecting the generator to the batteries was too small. They were replaced with 0000 cables and the problem was solved.

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Like John, I find that a little strange.  My old Bounder has the batteries and the generator 35' apart and uses 1/0 cable for the starter without any problem.  I'm suspecting that your original cable wasn't too small, but maybe had a bad or corroded cable connection causing significant voltage drop.  In any event, I'll bet you are happy to have it fixed.
(0000) or 4/0 cable is huge.

Just Lou said:

.. I'm suspecting that your original cable wasn't too small, but maybe had a bad or corroded cable connection causing significant voltage drop.  ..

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That's an excellent guess.