Thank you to Chris for helping discuss this topic with Bella Vista RV Centre Inc on their Youtube video that's pretty popular since it has received over half a million views. I'm pasting the full discussion here since it could get deleted from the Youtube video and it's harder to follow the full conversation there. Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMU0y0Qjoak
yamahonkawazuki3 weeks ago in reply to Langtry613
I do like prevost too. ( thought about selling the home lol. tbh I prefer a pusher, not a front engine. but fwiw, this is still nice. Canadian buyers can buy these stateside and have imported. granted not csc certified, but still can be done. I know folks that have.
Bella Vista RV Centre Inc 3 weeks ago in reply to yamahonkawazuki
Some Canadians have purchased State side to learn that the Coach cost more once they had to have the certifications done. Also, they need to know that they would hold the liability for life on the coach when they import it if there is ever a problem.
Blair Collins 6 days ago
Bella Vista RV, please provide a government source to back up your statement that the importer is liable for the life of the coach. I've heard this unsubstantiated statement before to scare people away from buying for less stateside.
Bella Vista RV Centre Inc 5 days ago
You can check with RIV (registrar of Imported vehicles) as well as Canada Customs and Border services, as you are Importer of Record. As for buying less stateside, our pricing has been equal to or less than the US dealers, and our units are built to CSA standards. We do not make statements to scare customers, we wish to educate them.
Customer service is important to us.
If you are considering a purchase and wish to discuss the benefits of buying in Canada I would be happy to speak with you by phone or in person.
Blair Collins 4 days ago
+Bella Vista RV Centre Inc I definitely support buying locally if the pricing is competitive and for the advantages of local service. CSA or RVIA certifications are valid in Ontario for Motorhomes and RV's. A Google Search such as 'vehicle (liability OR liable) "Importer of Record" site:cbsa-asfc.gc.ca' of the CBSA and RIV websites produces nothing indicating the importer is liable for the life of the unit. The importer is only responsible for paying the relevant costs at the time of import. I imported a new Thor Motorhome 2 summers ago. Happy to speak in the future for my next purchase as I'm only in my 40's.
Chris George-Pick 2 days ago
"Some Canadians have purchased State side to learn that the Coach cost more once they had to have the certifications done. Also, they need to know that they would hold the liability for life on the coach when they import it if there is ever a problem."
I have been reading and hearing these types of explanations and tactics from a number of Canadian RV dealers for a few years now (and yes it sure looks and sounds like a tactic to get more business), mostly since the Canadian dollar approached parity with its US counterpart. First, let me say that most, if not all, are false.
In my experience over the past 5 years of purchasing and importing RVs from the USA there has not been one dealer in Canada that was willing to come close to the price we bought from in the states. Each person must be comfortable with their purchase and complete their own due dilligence though and I can only share my experience based on fact. The last gas motorized RV we imported was actually an overall $24,000 savings... but even if it wasn't, even $2,000 to me that is a lot of money that we could use for family camping. My inlaws travel trailer imported just last week was a $4,000 savings. My brother's 5th wheel 3 yeras ago $9,000 in savings... and that is just a few examples from the the real world.
And what is this statement -- "Also, they (meaning the RV customer who buys from USA) need to know that they would hold the liability for life on the coach when they import it if there is ever a problem".
So, on the flipside that would mean that when I buy my next RV from a Canadian dealer, because they are the Broker Of Record on it, that they are responsible (no matter what my warranty says) for my RV for it's entire life? Well that is good information...probably not! I have spoken with both the CBSA (Canadian Customs & Border Services Agency, who incidentally are not concerned with the warranty or liability on your RV) and the RIV, and this is simply not true. If an RV is imported into Canada legallly under the RIV program you ar NOT responsible/liable for it for the life of the coach, the onus is always on the manufcaturers warranty first and foremost, and once that is run out you are on your own. Of course in the case of a particlar component malfucntion the idividual part/component manufacturer may have recalls or be responsible if it is proven that are product deficiencies or inherent defects with that component.
Bella Vista RV Centre Inc 2 days ago
Hello, What I was referring to is not warranty related, Canada Customs and RIV are only concerned with Transport Canada which is Federally regulated. When importing a vehicle there are Provincial codes which must be taken into account and are not required to be met before importing the vehicle, however are required by the province that the vehicle is to be registered in. I hopes this helps in the clarification.
Have a good day.
Blair Collins 2 days ago
+Bella Vista RV Centre Inc Please provide links to the specific provincial codes you mention that imported vehicles have to comply with. Ontario Highway Traffic Act says CSA or RVIA: http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_940340_e.htm
MTO is the same: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/pubs/recreational-vehicles/frequently-asked-questions.shtml
Chris George-Pick1 day ago
"Liable for the life of the coach", when it is imported legally under the RIV program, is absolutely untrue. If what you say is true than every dealer who imports an RV would also be "liable" for the RV for the life of it. This is simply not true. Please read the legislation and rules regarding importing an RV from the United States under the RIV program. And in speaking with Canada Customs (many times) and reviewing all of the documents that apply to the RIV program they (Canada Customs) have no interest whatsoever in liability for an RV after the fact but rather only that when importing an RV from the USA that it is done so according to the rules.
Further, the word liability (responsibility) carries a lot of unknowns and what ifs. Regardless of any type of warranty (so let's separate warranty from liability) saying that an importer is liable for an RV for it's life implies a lot of things. Provided the imported RV carries the RVIA decal (and as such was manufactured to those standards) and was imported legally under the RIV program, the manufacturer is ALWAYS responsible or liable for the products that they make, and any defective components in the RV that cause a loss would be first and foremost the manufacturers responsibility. If there was a defect in a component that caused third part damage, you can bet that insurers would vigorously pursue the manufacturer of both the RV and component involved, and NOT the importer of the RV who did so legally under the RIV program. As a licensed Insurance Adjuster in the Province of Ontario I investigated numerous automotive and property damage liability claims.
Bella Vista RV Centre Inc 1 day ago
RIV is only looking after Federal codes, so consumers must also be aware of the provincial codes they must meet, the RVIA certification does not completely comply with Ontario standards, however will be good enough for importation purposes to allow a unit into the country. RIV recommends, but does not force a consumer to meet provincial codes. Below is a notification that was sent out to all Ontario dealers which will help provide some clarification.
Have a good Day
Recreation Vehicle Certification in Ontario
WHAT YOU NEED TO KNOW
November 3, 2011 Update
RV Dealers in Ontario should know and understand the certification requirements in Ontario with regard to the importation of all types of RVs.
In this Province there are 2 acceptable certification codes:
Canadian Standards Association ? CSA Z240 Code
Recreation Vehicle Industry Association (RVIA) ? NFPA 1192 Code
However, both these codes are subject to the CSA Standards for Electrical and Propane (LPG). These are covered by CSA C22.1-09 Ontario Electrical Safety Code with label and CAN/CSA B149.2-05 Code Series as well as CAN/CSA B149.1-05 Code Series for Propane Storage, Handling and Installation. This applies to any person, company or Industry importing RVs into this Province.
The RVIA codes do not comply with the Standards Council of Canada therefore; electrical inspections must be performed by an Electrical Safety Inspector and have applied an orange ESA sticker on the electric panel or inside the door. Propane inspections must be performed by a certified RV-1 TSSA (Technical Standards & Safety Authority) Propane Technician and be tagged appropriately. (Usually on one of the appliances) This is the law.
Recreation Vehicle Dealers are advised that any type of repair or warranty work should not be performed until such time as these inspections are performed. There is a potential liability involved here.
Likewise, RVs not up to code should not be taken in on trade or sold without an ESA or LPG inspection.
For further information and clarification please refer to these websites:
Canadian Standards Association (CSA) www.csa.ca
Electrical Safety Authority (ESA) www.esasafe.com
Technical Standards & Safety Authority (TSSA) www.tssa.org
Thank you,
Larry Boyd
Executive Vice President
Ontario Recreation Vehicle Dealers Association
Blair Collins 1 day ago
+Bella Vista RV Centre Inc This is the same letter from Larry Boyd that is posted on another Ontario dealer website. Note that the source is the ORVDA who are not a government agency and represent dealers, not consumers.
Please provide a documented government source. What provincial codes are there beyond MTO and the Highway Traffic Act which both state either RVIA or CSA is accepted? http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/pubs/recreational-vehicles/frequently-asked-questions.shtml The Ontario Highway Traffic Act was changed in 2011 to specifically accept either CSA or RVIA.
The CRVA state either RVIA or CSA for RV's manufactured to be sold in Canada: http://www.crva.ca/rv-manufacturers/
Further, QAI is the "Standards Council of Canada" approved organization that determines what RV's are authorized for import under the RIV program without additional inspection: http://qai.org/category/services/page/2/
QAI is the exact same organization that provides the CSA stickers and approvals to US RV manufacturers like Thor.
Note item 11 which states: "When Transport Canada approves the QAI application on behalf of the manufacturer?that the manufacturer?s vehicles are compliant with Canadian standards, the manufacturer appears under QAI?s Pre-Clearance list of manufacturers"
Further, the CSA recognizes that the differences from RVIA are minor and harmonization of the two codes into one for all of North America is in progress: http://www.rvia.org/?ESID=preleases&PRID=431&SR=141
Bella Vista RV Centre Inc 1 day ago
+Blair Collins Hello Blair, The government source you are looking for is in the letter I posted, it outlines that the RVIA code is accepted for importation however does not meet all provincial requirements, and the letter goes on to explain why. Also the links to the government agencies are at the bottom of the letter and Larry outlines what part of the codes are affected.
Yes, the ORVDA represents dealers however they also work for the interest and benefit of the consumer, and work to better the industry for the consumers benefit, by promoting a strong industry and reputable dealers that work to protect consumers.
If these references are not enough for you then I am sorry, and each consumer must be comfortable with their individual decisions. My dealership does not try to scare consumers, we try to educate them and ensure they are looked after. As a dealer we are held to the above standards which are also applicable to consumers.
Thank you for your responses and I wish you all the best.
Blair Collins 21 hours ago (edited)
+Bella Vista RV Centre Inc Larry from ORVDA is not a government source and his salary is funded by dealers who are the only members. His letter cites specific parts of the code but this doesn't state that RVIA isn't accepted also. There is no text on the CSA, ESA, and TSSA websites you've listed saying that RVIA NFPA 1192 is not accepted. Larry's statements contradict MTO, QAI (who is certified by the CSA), and the Ontario Highway Traffic Act. The Google Search command "site:csagroup.org RVIA" comes up with nothing. Searches of the ESA and TSSA websites have nothing relevant either.
I would be happy to spend my money for service at your dealership if you'll waive the hefty costs of ESA and TSSA certifications that are not required by any law.
My goal is to ask the Thor dealers to stop enforcing unnecessary fees on RV consumers for "bringing imported units to code" when MTO and insurance companies are happy with the RVIA certifications in Ontario for safety and compliance.
You are the only Thor dealer in Ontario that has taken the time to discuss this. I thank you for that.
Chris George-Pick 21 hours ago
From a customer standpoint, in my opinion (which is a similar context to how that letter was written, as "an opinion") I think there may be a number things that can inspire a letter like this, not the least of which is having a vested interest in creating more sales of Canadian RV's (which is OK, that is the essence of your business). But it also tends to pass on information/ammunition to dealers to then pass on to potential cross border shoppers...but incorrectly.
Please see and review the following (they are the codes quoted in Larry's letter):
"The Canadian Electrical Code, CE code, or CSA C22.1 "
"The Canadian Electrical Code does not apply to vehicles, systems operated by an electrical or communications utility, railway systems, aircraft or ships; since these installations are already regulated by separate documents."
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Electrical_Code
CAN/CSA-B149.1-05 doesn't not apply to RV or mobile homes unless made permanent:
"4.8.1 The installation of gas-burning appliances and supply piping in mobile homes shall be in accordance with CAN/CSA-Z240.4.1.
4.8.2 When a vehicle ceases to be used as a mobile home or recreational vehicle and is placed at a location in a permanent fixed manner, the system shall comply with all applicable requirements of this Code."
Source: http://www.csagroup.org/documents/codes-and-standards/supplements/B149_1S1_EN.pdf
I think as an entire industry in Canada that RV dealers need to give a more ROUNDED and COMPLETE education to consumers as to what "you" are protecting them against with regards to importing their RV from the United States. In reviewing the actual codes (above) there is no need for an importer to do these items and therefore no reason for a consumer to be told they must do it, and then charged for the work. More so, how can they be refused service by a factory authorized dealer based on things that are not fact? If they are given the entire picture and then choose to have the propane test and ESA inspection completed then so be it.
The other item that strikes me as being a problem for the dealer (mostly because it works to prevent or even scare dealers into removing a profit centre for them -- ie: warranty service on RIV imported RV's and service on used RIV imported RV's) is that the letter indicates at the end that this might pose a potential liability situation... again, in reading the codes properly AND in speaking with the ESA without biased, there is no possible way that there is potential of liability for servicing an RVIA certified RV that has been properly imported over and above the servicing of any RV in Canada.
Blair Collins 1 minute ago
Thanks Chris. The CSA codes quoted in Larry's letter don't appear to be relevant to recreational vehicles at all.