Synthetic Oil vs "Dino" Oil

BernieD said:

Al

I have been to at least 3 Cummins/Spartan seminars this year at which oil was covered. While benefits of synthetics were acknowledged, the cost differential for engine usage was not deemed worth the benefits .


I have never heard Cummins approve of extended oil changes. Oil analysis will indicate impurities in the oil and engine damage, but it won't provide information on the oil additive package. That was the primary concern of the seminar presenters as to oil change timing. The basic Cummins position was that if you used extended oil change timing due to either using synthetics or oil analysis, Cummins may not honor the engine warranty if damage was due to oil.

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The cost was mentioned as a possible inhibitor, but the presenter's were staying away from that.? As to extending the intervals, that was mainly as an answer to the question from a very heavy user and the recommendation was to check it every few months and look for changes.? The implication seemed to be that metal would show up in the oil before it got to the point of damage, but. as I said, I'll stick with Dino and normal intervals.? I think the testing and synthetic loil would be at least as costly in the long run!

Al

Oil analysis runs around 20-25 bucks, for a car with 19.95 quick oil change, it's a break even deal

For a truck engine with 50-150 dollar oil changes (I know one truck stop wihch advertises 99.95, I know another place (Dealer believe it or not) which does it for sixty) 20 bucks a pop is less expensive

Also, there are additional belefits to synthetic which make me desire it big time.  Engine runs cooler, longer and farther with synthetic due to it's superior lubrication properties

John In Detroit said:

Oil analysis runs around 20-25 bucks

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John, FYI I just purchased oil analysis kits from a CAT dealer for $15 each. Includes containers, plastic hose, pre-paid mailer (to their lab) and the cost of analysis.

Thanks Tom... I know where the local CAT dealer is near me too (Been there, had to buy stuff for the shop when the cat broke IT28G)


Funny story... Had a customer who has a serious mouth problem (He was running his mouth when he should have been running his car, outta there) he threatened our yard man who radioed for  backup (I'd dismissed the ... rear end (As polite as I can get here) but the yard man radioed for back up.

I told him "You should have declared him a mouse and gone and gotten your cat"  He said "What is my little cat going to do agains him?  I said "Not the little cat, the IT28G" (One BIG yellow CAT! The wheels are six feet tall)

OK, where is the evidence that synthetic oils provide BETTER protection than regular oils???  There is none, that I am aware of. Synthetic oils are better, I don't disagree about that, but when did you ever hear of an engine that was well maintained with regular oil changes ever failing below 250,000 miles?  Volkswagon Jetta taxis go 500,000 miles on regular oil before the engine fails. I drive Jeep Cherokees and I sold my last one at 250,000K. The new owner used it for another 2 years and sold it on with a great engine and good compression.
Synthetic oil is like when MacDonald's says to you, "will you have fries with that". They are trying to sell you a higher priced product. Sure, it's a great product, and I used it on my race car BECAUSE IT WAS FREE, but in regular use it is no better than the standard stuff.
I have made other posts about the Consumers Magazine study where they compared NY taxis for 70,000miles and found NO DIFFERENCE between regular economy oils and synthetic oils.
So my opinion is, if you want to use them, that's fine, YOU will feel better.  But your engine won't notice a difference in normal use, even in heavy duty use if the oil changes are adjusted accordingly.

rankjo said:

OK, where is the evidence that synthetic oils provide BETTER protection than regular oils???   There is none, that I am aware of. Synthetic oils are better, I don't disagree about that, but when did you ever hear of an engine that was well maintained with regular oil changes ever failing below 250,000 miles?  ...

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My family had a well maintained 1961 Ford Falcon which burned through a piston around 50,000 miles in 1969.  :

Well, as for where the data is.  It's buried in history, it's  been years (At least 15) since I saw the evidence and it's been piling up since then

However this I will say... Allison Transmissions.  They do not, far as I know, make transmission fluid, they buy it, just like we do but in much larger bottles (Roughly the size of a train car)  They somewhat strongly suggust that you use SYNTHETIC (Called Transnyd if I've not mispelled it)

Call them, ask them, ask them what they will do for you if you flush and fill with Synthetic.

They make them, They warrant them and they extend the warranty if you use synthetic.  Appears they believe in it.

More damage is done to an engine when it is started cold than at any other time, Syn oil leaves a coating on the vulnerable parts. That's it greatest advantage over regular oil which does not leave a coating.

Piston aircraft engines have a "pre-oiler" pump which pumps the oil out of the sump and over the valve system etc., before starting the engine. That extends the time before overhaul is required, dramatically.

Castroil contains a huge amount of mineral oil, other brands have some but by comparison it is very little. Back in the day, helicopter engines ran on almost pure mineral oil.

Extending time between oil changes can be hazardous. But if you have never overheated your engine, with syn oil all you need change is the filter.

Just my opinion and experience. (285K on 92 town car, gave it to brother in law, he's put
over 100k miles on it, runs fine.)

To me, syn oil wins every time.

"More damage is done to an engine when it is started cold than at any other time"
It is amazing to me that so many people who should know better have accepted that advertising slogan as gospel...    Oil does not "drain" out of bearing surfaces.  The surface tension prevents it.  I have disassembled engines that have been sitting for 10 to 15 years, and the oil is still there in bearing surfaces.  The only area damaged by rust is the cylinder walls, where the oil is wiped off by the rings and the surface is exposed to the air.  The usual problem with cold starts is the additional fuel used to improve drivability dilutes the oil.
Art

So, are you saying that pilots, aircraft owners, US Army, etc., have been sold a lot of bunk? This has been going on for over 40 years (with the pre-oiler pump) and mountains of records showing the improvement in engine durability, and now is only an advertising slogan? 

This was a heated discussion in Popular Mechanics within the last few years and I recall they stated "the oil pump is very lazy pump" etc., and that was tone of their reasons for saying syn oil was, overall, better than regular oil (which by the way is about 20% sny, counting the additives).

Who"s slogan is it?

One of the things we used to do to airplane engines was to rotate the prop through a few turns by hand.  I was told (30 years ago) that this helped lubricate the side cylinder walls and break the piston stiction making it easier to start the engine. It was always part of the preflight check list. 

Absolutely true. That was a carry over from the radial engines of WWII.

And as you remember, the turning of the props was after turning ON the master switch to lower the flaps as part of pre-flight.

Unfortunately some forgot to turn the master switch OFF and turning the prop started the engine. I need not tell you what happened next. As a result ALL AIRCRAFT manufacturers recommend to not turn the prop or hand prop to start.

Thus: the pre-oiler pump.

Got off subject but you made a good point.

Ah, you haven't lived until you've had a prop kick back and throw you up in the air. You quickly learn to NOT lock your fingertips around the trailing edge of the blade :'( What did Forrest Gump say: "Stupid is as stupid does"? or something like that.

I do not know about draining out of bearings, but it seems to me that there should not be a lot of difference in that respect between them.  I know a bit more about synthetic than I'm comfortable telling (Which by the way means I'm not 100% sure of the info, both grade of memory and faulire to check it out)

However I do know that people I trust have compared Regular to Synthetic and found that the cars they tested with ran cooler and delivered better MPG's on synthetic.  I know that I work engines hard and synthetic can take more abuse than regular.

And SOME synthetics last a lot longer.

But the big one is not an engine, it's a transmission.. Allison corp will extend the warranty of their transmissions if you use TransSynd, a synthetic tranny fluid.  That speaks volumes

the FTC and Slick 50

In 1997, three subsidiaries of Quaker State Corp. (the makers of Slick 50) settled Federal Trade Commission charges that ads for Quaker State's Slick 50 Engine Treatment were false and unsubstantiated. According to the FTC complaint, claims such as the following made in Slick 50 ads falsely represented that without Slick 50, auto engines generally have little or no protection from wear at start-up and commonly experience premature failure caused by wear:

"Every time you cold start your car without Slick 50 protection, metal grinds against metal in your engine."

"With each turn of the ignition you do unseen damage, because at cold start-up most of the oil is down in the pan. But Slick 50's unique chemistry bonds to engine parts. It reduces wear up to 50% for 50,000 miles."

"What makes Slick 50 Automotive Engine Formula different is an advanced chemical support package designed to bond a specially activated PTFE to the metal in your engine."

In fact, the FTC said, "most automobile engines are adequately protected from wear at start-up when they use motor oil as recommended in the owner's manual. Moreover, it is uncommon for engines to experience premature failure caused by wear, whether they have been treated with Slick 50 or not."

As to aircraft engine pre oilers, I've heard of the owners of warbirds adding them, (probably as a result of Slick 50 adds) because the cost of zero timimg a Packard or RR Merlin is so great that any hope of holding it off for even a little is worth it.  I may be wrong, but I know of no military or general aviation engine that has it as original equipment.
Art

I change the Mobil 1 everu 5000 alnog with filter.  If might be ok as they say to jsut change filter and add a quart.  I prefer the change.  Use it on all our vehicles and believe oin it fully. That's just my way.  If others don't care about, that's fine with me, cuz I like it.

I thought the discussion was about synthetic oil, not additives?

Karl, although we have not met yet, I visualized you going on a world class side flip. LOL

Since we have beat this subject into the ground (You either love or hate synthetic oil) and  a lot of mechanical people are on this thread:

My wonderful wife bought a 9000 series HP laptop and is going to permit me to load Microsoft Flight Simulator X Deluxe version (real time) and controls. So if we get lucky and meet at Moab, I would be honored to let all pilots, current or not, fly a 747 at 50' past the Egyptian pharaoh's mouments @ 550kts.  Or the Wright brothers original aircraft.

I use synthetic in my 2001 Pontiac Bonneville and chage it once a year and the filter once every 6 months. I sent a sample away to have it tested and they said I could have run it even more. I put about 10,000 mi a year on the Pontiac. No need to change it as often as a lot of folks do your just wasting money. My engine oil when I change it is only slightly dark brown. Would I do this with Dino oil. Why hell no
Don M

I know of 2 individuals the use Slick 50 and Both Cars failed within 4 months.