New Winnebago Purchase - the Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Here are the facts surrounding our recent purchase of a 2014 Winnebago Journey 42E at Camping World in Fort Myers, FL.  Feel free to draw your own conclusions.  Disclaimer:  This is a LONG post, especially the discussion about the satellite TV system.  Your questions and comments are welcome.

We found a coach in the Camping World system at another store that we were interested in.  Our salesman in Fort Myers was willing to bring it from several hundred miles away with a fully refundable deposit of $5000 in order for us to look it over.  We gave them the deposit, the coach was delivered at the end of November 2013, and after looking it over we agreed to make the purchase.  We made a list of items to be corrected, including some damaged items and some things that were not working properly, and were given assurances that these items would be corrected prior to our scheduled delivery on December 21, 2013.

In the interim between the end of November and December 21st our salesman quit and we were assigned a new sales person.  We arrived at Camping World on 12/21 and were dismayed to see that many of the items on our list had not been addressed.  Our new sales person told us that the previous salesman and his sales manager had ?over-promised? and that it was not possible to have all of the issues that we had identified corrected.  We told her that we were not interested in taking the coach under those circumstances, and her reply was ?OK?.  At that point we asked to see the general manager, who was very accommodating.  He gave us a ?We Owe? list along with his personal assurances that all of the items on our list would be addressed.

We paid for the coach on 12/21 and took it to have some custom paint work done at another location.  We returned to Camping World on January 2, 2014 with the understanding that we would be welcome to stay onsite with electric service (but no water or sewer hookup) until all of our issues were corrected. 

We wound up living in the camping World Parking lot from January 2, 2014 until Thursday February 20, 2014 and the coach was in the service bay all day for a total of seven days (Saturday 1/4/14, Thursday 1/9/14, Monday 1/13/14, Monday 1/20/14, Tuesday 1/28/14, Wednesday 2/12/14 and Monday 2/17/14).  In addition, we had numerous visits by service technicians to the parking lot. 

Jack System

Prior to delivery an error code on the jack system was noted.  It was not corrected prior to delivery and at delivery the jack system would not operate.  The jack system had never been zeroed.  A technician was dispatched to the delivery pad and he zeroed the system so it would operate normally. 

Compound Under Dura-Shield

A small area of white rubbing compound under the Dura Shield on the front of the coach was reported prior to delivery and the issue was not addressed.  It was entered on the ?We Owe? list at delivery on 12/21/13.  It was corrected Thursday 1/16/14 in the parking lot by removing a small piece of Dura Shield, wiping off the compound, and replacing the Dura Shield.

Sofa Pull Out

The pullout for the sofa bed just behind the driver?s seat was found to be very difficult to operate.  It needed to be adjusted and/or lubricated.  This issue was noted at delivery and was added to the ?We Owe? list.  It was corrected on 1/13/14.

Soap Dispenser

On Saturday 1/4/14 we filled the soap dispenser next to the kitchen sink but it would not pump soap.  We looked under the counter and found that there was no bottle under the soap dispenser and soap was everywhere in the cabinet.  A bottle from another coach was installed on 1/10/14.

Water Pressure ? Kitchen Sink

The water pressure at the kitchen sink was much lower than in the bathrooms.  The pressure was good when the sprayer hose was extended but was very low when the hose was retracted.  On 1/10/14 the problem was corrected by relocating the weight on the hose to remove a kink.

Exterior TV

The exterior TV was not connected to the Dish system when the antenna/Dish installation was done on 1/4/14.  This was corrected on 1/13/14.

Remote Keyless Entry

The remote keyless door lock for the entry door did not work.  This was corrected on 1/9/14 when it was discovered that the remote was never properly programmed.  The battery in one of the remotes was also dead and was replaced.

Cabinet Door ? Master Bath

The right cabinet door below the master bath sink was found to be very loose.  The wood behind one or more of the screws was not holding the screws in place.  This was corrected on 1/9/14.

Paint Repair on Rear Cap

There was evidence of a paint repair on the rear cap just above the opening for the radiator.  This repair was poorly done, with evidence that the paint was rubbed out to a point where the paint was almost removed on the lower right side of the repair area, and there was white compound visible along a hard line at the top of the repair area.  This repair was started on 1/13/14 and was completed on 1/14/13.  The part was removed, repainted and reinstalled.

Washer Dryer Hold Open Latch

On 1/8/14 we discovered that the hold-open latch for the washer/dryer doors would not stay latched when the doors were open.  This was addressed on 1/9/14. 

Window Shade over Dining Table

The window shade next to dining table had a tear on the lower left corner.  The part was ordered on 1/9/14 and the shade was replaced on 1/13/14.

Rear View Camera

Prior to delivery it was noted that the picture coming from the rear view camera was obscured.  This was not corrected prior to delivery.  At delivery, a technician cleaned the camera lens with three different products.  The technician indicated that there was some sort of dark material on the lens, and that the camera should be replaced.  We were told on 1/17/14 that a new camera was ordered.  The camera was replaced on 1/20/14 and the image is now good.

DISH TV System (Warning ? this piece is really long)

On Saturday 1/4/14 we had a Winegard Trav?ler SK 1000 DISH satellite antenna and two Dish receivers installed.  The technicians had a very difficult time getting the receivers activated.  On Saturday evening the system stopped working.  On Sunday 1/5/14, a technician spent some time diagnosing the problem with a Dish technician and they determined that the HDMI cable in the coach that was installed by Winnebago was defective.  We also suspected that there may be a compatibility issue between the Winnebago cable and the Dish system.  On 1/6/14 we were told that this issue needed to be diagnosed while talking with a Winnebago representative. This was not addressed on 1/9/14 and it was the primary reason why we went in for service for the entire day.  We were told that the technician who was assigned this job was pulled off the job to ?do a delivery?. 

Subsequently, a technician made repeated visits to the coach and was not able to identify the root cause of the problem.  The DISH system never worked consistently with the lounge TV.  The technician had endless conversations with Samsung (TV), the company that makes the HDMI Matrix box and DISH receivers, and the company that configures the TV systems in the coach.  The three companies each pointed the finger at the other regarding the root cause of the problem.  Note:  The HDMI Matrix box performs two functions ? it switches the various inputs to any of the three TV?s in the coach, and it changes from HDMI cable input to Cat 6 cable output.

We had the new "Z" model DISH receivers, which power themselves off after a period of inactivity each night.  In the morning when we turned the system back on, the bedroom TV (which is Insignia) would consistently make a connection with the DISH system.  The lounge TV (Samsung) would not.  Sometimes we got "No signal". 
Sometimes we get "DISH receiver is off" and we were able to get the system working by using the Select button on the DISH remote.  Sometimes it was possible to change channels on the lounge TV using the DISH remote; sometimes it was not.  Sometimes we could get the lounge TV to work on DISH receiver 2 but not DISH receiver 1, while other times this was not possible.

In light of over two weeks of being unable to remedy these issue, and comments that Camping World has had nothing but trouble with DISH systems in the Tour/Journey models like ours we requested that the DISH receivers and antenna be replaced with Direct TV equipment.

On 1/20/14 the Cat 6 cable from the HDMI Matrix box to the lounge TV was swapped out and the system worked OK for two days.  On 1/22/14 we moved the coach for a water fill/tank dump.  Upon return, the front TV indicated ?no signal? from the DISH receiver.  We tried rebooting the HDMI Matrix box and the DISH receiver with no luck.  A technician came out and rebooted the HDMI matrix box, which resulted in a signal to the TV.  The Balun control box at the TV was next replaced and no improvement was noted.  The HDMI Matrix box was replaced on 1/28/14 with a box from another coach on the lot and the system operated OK for a short period of time. 

On 2/8/14 we realized that the remote controls for DISH receiver 1 (feeding the lounge TV) and DISH Receiver 2 (feeding the bedroom TV) were on the same remote address, remote address 1.  As a result each remote was controlling both receivers at the same time, i.e. cross-controlling the channel display on both televisions.  On 2/9/14 we contacted DISH Technical Support about these two issues.  As usual the first technician was not able to help us and referred us to ?Advanced? technical support.  The advanced technical support person has us change the remote address for the DISH 2 receiver from 1 to 2.  This corrected the cross-controlling problem but resulted in a new issue.  The DISH 2 remote would now only change channels and perform DISH receiver functions when pointed directly at the DISH receiver.  It would not function correctly over the IR system when used in a remote fashion in the bedroom.  It would control the TV functions correctly (on/off, volume, mute) but would not control the DISH box from the bedroom.  The technician had us put the DISH 2 (bedroom) remote back on remote address 1 and the problem persisted.  The technician indicated that she thought this may be an IR interference issue and that we could look at getting a UHF to IR converter, as the DISH boxes that we have will not operate on UHF otherwise.  She was not able to offer any further assistance on this issue.  On 2/10/14 the issue with remote 2 not changing channels on the bedroom TV disappeared overnight for no apparent reason.

On 2/8/14 the bedroom TV began flickering on a constant basis, flashing about once a second.  We contacted DISH technical support.  The DISH technician had us turn off the DISH 2 receiver and the flickering continued on the bedroom TV.  She concluded that the issue is either with the HDMI wiring or the television and could offer no further assistance.

On 2/10/14 a technician came out around 5 PM and we looked at the flickering issue.  We put DISH receiver 1 on the bedroom TV and the flickering stopped.  The same was true with the lounge and exterior TV?s.  All three TV?s flickered when on DISH 2 and not on DISH 1.  The tech suspected that the issue was with the DISH 2 receiver and went to see about swapping it out.  He came back and reported that he was authorized to swap the receiver and that we would do so on 2/11/14.

On 2/11/14 the DISH receiver was swapped for a new unit and there was no change.  We swapped the HDMI cable from DISH receiver 2 to the HDMI matrix box and there was no change.  At my suggestion the technician swapped the position of the DISH 2 receiver from HDMI position 3 to HDMI position 4 and the flickering problem went away.  Conclusion:  Position 3 on the HDMI box is defective.  The technician said he would request that a new HDMI box be ordered.

Our coach was in the service bay on 2/12/14 all day for service not related to the TV system.  At the end of the day on 2/12/14 I was escorted to the service bay to review the work that had been done.  I pointed out to the technician a small tear in the panel behind the bedroom TV that had been previously highlighted with yellow tape.  The technician indicated that he would repair the area with epoxy. 

Whoever closed the full wall slide on the passenger side of the coach did not stow the bedroom TV properly at the end of the day and the TV and a piece of molding that it came in contact with were both destroyed as a result.

On 2/13/14 the bedroom TV was replaced with an identical unit.  The same technician then took an HDMI box from a brand new coach and swapped it for the box in our coach.  He was unable to make the HDMI box work properly despite a long conversation with Winnebago Tech Support.  He then put the old box back and we put the component inputs back on positions 1, 2 and 4.  Everything went back to working like it was previously.  At that point we decided we would live with one non-functional position on the HDMI box. 

On 2/14/14 we moved the coach to test the tow car system that had been installed on our car and the coach.  Afterwards we turned on the TV in the lounge and the remote control would not function correctly through the IR to turn on the DISH receiver or change channels. In addition, we once again had no signal at all on the bedroom TV. 

The following message was sent to the GM and the service department on 2/14/14:

EVERY time we power off, move the coach and power back on we have problems.  We are absolutely and totally done with this TV system.  We have had constant trouble with it since January 4, 2014.  Technicians have been to the coach countless times.  No matter what they try, no matter what components are swapped, the system simply does not function consistently and reliably. 

We have no confidence whatsoever that you are going to be able to make this system work reliably.  We want the antenna and DISH receivers removed and our money refunded so we can get out of the parking lot and move on with our lives.

On 2/15/14 I had a conference with the GM, the shop foreman, and two people from the Camping World store.  It was agreed that DISH has been a constant source of issues in coaches that have the newest version of the HDMI Matrix box.  The shop foreman strongly suspects that the DISH receiver does not send a strong enough signal consistently to the HDMI matrix box, resulting in inconsistent operation.  He further stated that he never schedules a DISH installation for Saturday because of the inability to get tech support, which is always needed because there are always issues.  It was agreed that the store will swap our DISH system for a Direct TV system and this swap was scheduled for Monday 2/17/14.

On 2/17/14 the DISH equipment was removed and the Direct TV equipment was installed (SWM Slimline Antenna, one DVR receiver and one HD receiver).  I initiated a call to Direct at 4:54 PM and spent one hour and 19 minutes total on the phone.  I was referred from one person to the next a total of six times trying to create an RV Mobile account.  After two requests to speak to a supervisor the seventh person (a supervisor) finally was able to create the RV Mobile account.

One of the two receivers was successfully activated.  The other would not activate due to the SWM antenna.  Some sort of ?IVR activation waiver? was required to do this and the supervisor did not seem to understand how to do it.  The technician and I agreed that we would stop at that point and continue the next day (Tuesday).  The slides in the RV were closed during this process so we could not see the bedroom TV.

After we got back to the parking lot and opened the slides we discovered that there was still no satellite signal whatsoever on the bedroom TV. 

We had a technician to come out to our coach on Tuesday for the following remaining issues:

1. Activate the second receiver
2. Figure out why we can?t get a signal on the bedroom TV
3. Program the two Direct TV remote controls so that they control the TV functions on the bedroom and lounge TV?s
4. Program the two Direct TV remote controls so that they do not cross-control the lounge and bedroom TV?s
5. Verify that we can get Direct TV on the exterior TV

On 2/18/14 a technician came to the coach and was able to get the second receiver activated using the ?Activation waiver?.  He was unable to get a signal on the bedroom TV and called a second tech to the coach.  The second tech changed the output position on the HDMI box from 2 to 4 in order to get the bedroom TV working.  We then had the following input/output configuration and functionality on the HDMI Matrix box:

Input 1 ? DVD Player
Input 2 ? Satellite 1 Receiver/DVR
Input 3 ? Not in use and not working properly.  An input here causes a flickering signal on all three televisions.
Input 4 ? Satellite 2 Receiver

Output 1 ? Living Room (Lounge) TV ? working properly
Output 2 ? Not in use and not working properly.  An output from here sends only the DVD player signal no matter which input is selected (DVD, Sat 1 or Sat 2).
Output 3 ? Exterior TV.  Not working properly.  An output from here sends only the DVD player signal no matter which of the inputs is selected (DVD, Sat 1 or Sat 2).
Output 4 ? Bedroom TV ? working properly

It was necessary for the tech to get a different RF/IR remote to control the Satellite 1/DVR Receiver so that the satellite remotes would not cross control the satellite receivers.  He was also able to program both satellite remotes to control the TV functions on both the bedroom and lounge TV?s.  The Bedroom TV model was not one of the automatic choices programmed into the Direct TV system.  It was necessary to get a code from the Direct TV website to program the remote.

The tech told us that a brand new HDMI box was on order for our coach and that we just needed to wait for it to come in.  We checked and found that the tech sent in a request to order the HDMI Matrix box on 2/10/14 and the parts department initialed the request on 2/11/14.  The part was never ordered and no one could explain why. 

We then went to see then GM who told us that a brand new Winnebago Adventurer had just come in from the factory.  We went to the coach and verified that it did have the 4 x 4 HDMI matrix box.  The GM then went to the service department at around 4 PM to give them direction to swap the box from the Adventurer to our coach.  At 4:45 PM a tech came out and swapped the HDMI Matrix box out of our coach for the one from the brand new Adventurer.  The three inputs are now being distributed to the three televisions using positions 1,2,3 on the input side and 1,2,3 on the output side.  We verified that each of the three TV?s could receive each of the three inputs properly.

We then tested the remote controls.  The remote for the living room/exterior TV worked OK.  The remote for the bedroom was not functioning at all (for TV or Satellite 2 functions).  Subsequently, for some unknown reason Satellite Receiver 2 rebooted itself and went thru a setup procedure.  After that, the remote control worked correctly for Satellite 2.  From that point forward everything has worked OK to date.

Tear in Sofa Arm

There was a tear in the fabric of the ultraleather sofa on the arm that extends into the lounge that was noted when we first looked at the coach.  A repair was attempted prior to delivery on 12/21/13 that did not correct the problem.  There was still a portion of the tear visible and the attempt to cover up a scuff mark with some sort of liquid repair material was unsatisfactory.  The area was off color and off texture from the rest of the sofa.  At delivery we spoke with the GM about this issue and it was added to our ?We Owe? list.  A new arm was ordered but had not arrived as of 1/18/14.  The arm arrived on Saturday 1/26 and was installed on 1/28/14.

Bedroom Molding

There is a piece of vertical molding in the bedroom between the TV and the closet that was dented that was noted when we first looked at the coach in late November 2013.  It was not addressed prior to delivery on 12/21/13.  We asked on 1/13/14 if this molding was ever ordered.  Our service writer replied that it was ordered and was expected in on 1/16/14.  The molding never arrived.  We inquired again on 1/21/14 and our service writer said he would check.  On 2/3/14 we were told that the molding piece would be in by Friday 2/7/14. 

On 2/7/14 we obtained the Camping World PO number and called Winnebago Owner Relations.  We were told by Winnebago that this order was placed on 2/4/14 and would be shipped on 2/10/14 by next day air.  Two pieces of the molding arrived prior to our service visit on 2/12/14 and one was installed.  At the end of the day on 2/12/14 I was escorted to the service bay to review the work that had been done.  I pointed out a small tear in the panel behind the bedroom TV that had been previously highlighted with yellow tape.  The tech indicated that he would repair the area with epoxy. 

Whoever closed the full wall slide on the passenger side of the coach did not stow the bedroom TV properly and the new molding and the TV were both destroyed as a result.

On 2/13/14 the damaged molding was replaced with a second duplicate piece that had been sent along with the original replacement. 

Window Screens

The screens on the crank open windows were found to be detached at the bottom on the passenger side lounge window (both screens) and the driver's side lounge window (rear screen of the two).  On 1/20/14 our service writer told us that new screens had been ordered.  On 2/10/14 he gave us a Camping World PO for the screens.  We checked with Winnebago Owner Relations and were told that these screens were being drop shipped from SE-GI and that they could not give me any further information.  We also learned from Winnebago that the screens were never ordered until 2/4/14.  On 2/10/14 we called SE-GI, located in Lake Forest CA (949-297-8530).  Per the representative that we spoke with the PO was not showing in his system.  The screens were repaired and/or replaced with screens from another coach on 2/12/14.

Living Room Slide Inoperable (Schwintek/Lippert System)

On 2/1/14 we tried to close our slides in order to go for a water fill and dump.  The living room slide would not close.  The front of the slide moved normally.  The motor on the rear of the slide ran for a very short time and then stopped.  A technician came out to troubleshoot and no error codes were found on the slide controller.  The tech then switched the wires for the front and rear motors at the controller.  This resulted in no change in the motor operation, except for the fact that the ?in? position on the control button moved the slide out and the ?Out? position moved the slide in.  The conclusion was that the controller is OK and the motor on the rear of the slide is the problem.  The shop foreman indicated that he would order a new motor/drive assembly.  The parts arrived from Lippert on Monday 2/10/14.

In order to get into service we needed to close the living room slide to move the coach.  A tech unsuccessfully attempted to close the slide using the override.  He then disconnected the drive motor on the rear (fixed) side of the slide from the outside of the coach and with the help of several technicians pushed the slide home.  This was done by powering in the float side using the manual override while pushing the other side by hand.  The slide did not move smoothly. 

The new slide drive units were installed on 2/12/14.  The failure was the coupling between the motor and the shaft, which broke into three pieces.

Windshield Washer Pump

It was noted after delivery that the windshield washer did not work.  On 1/20/14 the windshield washer pump was found to be inoperative and a new pump was been ordered.  The pump arrived on 2/4/14 after being overnighted.  This makes us wonder when it was actually ordered.  The pump was installed on 2/12/14 and the windshield washer system now operates correctly.

Tow Package for Buick Lucerne and Coach

The parts for this install were ordered on 12/15/14 and did not come in for a month.  It took three days to complete the installation of the baseplate, transmission pump and Invisi-Brake on our car (1/17, 1/18 and 1/20).  The first Invisi-Brake unit that was installed would not pump up and was replaced.  The related wiring for Invisi-brake system was not completed and the hitch was not installed to the coach until 1/28/14.  We were unable to test the system on a timely basis because of the failure of our living room slide.  On 2/14/14 we attempted to test the tow package.  The tech had to replace the switch that tells the Invisi Brake light in the coach whether the brakes are on or off before we could complete the test.  After he did so we went out and towed the car and all appeared to be working correctly.

On 2/20/14 we departed Camping World in Fort Myers and headed north.  We stopped at a rest area about 100 miles down the road and shut off the ignition in the coach.  I shut off the transmission pump and the alarm sounded even though the coach ignition was turned off.  I disconnected the wiring harness for the car so we would not have to listen to the alarm during the stop.  We proceeded to a campground where we had a reservation for several nights.  On 2/21/14 one of our fellow campers determined that the tech at Camping World had wired the power source for the transmission pump control unit so that it was hot all the time.  He repositioned the wire so that it is only hot when the ignition is on and the transmission pump controller now works correctly. 

Summary

We are probably the exception to the rule in that we refused to move off of the Camping World lot until all of our issues were resolved.  There was a lack of sense of urgency to get things done and we had a constant struggle to get accurate information about what was going on with parts shipments and when the repairs to our coach would be made to our satisfaction, even though we were talking to people and following up on things onsite, every day for seven weeks.  The coach came with a warranty of 12 months and we spent close to two months of that time trying to get issues fixed that should have been corrected before the coach was ever delivered to us. 

It is clear that Winnebago played a major role in our dissatisfaction because of the design and production related issues that are apparent in their product. 

The issues that we experienced indicate to us that the pre-delivery inspection that CW was supposed to perform was either done in a slipshod fashion or was not performed at all.  The fact that we pointed out numerous issues to the sales department that were not followed up on prior to delivery was profoundly disappointing.  The fact that there was a lack of follow up or urgency to correct the issues that the GM signed a ?We Owe? memo on was also extremely disappointing, with the bedroom molding issue being a prime example.  It took from late November until February 4, 2014 to order a part that was promised to be corrected prior to delivery on 12/21/13.  This situation is simply absurd when you look at the facts and should be a source of embarrassment for all involved.

After reading your post, my first thoughts were to similar bad experiences I had a few years back with Camping World at Fort Myers. 

I had an issue with the A/C not working as it should on a vacation trip to Ft Myers in our new 2008 Journey, purchased from another CW location.  It had worked minimally, so I suspected (and hoped) it only needed a recharge.  A quick fix, right? 

The day after we arrived in Ft Myers, a Monday, I called to schedule an a/c service.  They said it could be looked at the next day, Tuesday.  We checked it in early Tuesday morning and left it.  Fortunately, or maybe unfortunately, we had other accomodations available, so we didn't stay there.  I don't think anyone even looked at it Tuesday.  Again, this was a vacation trip and we were planning on leaving Friday.  CW finally looked at it on Wednesday, and found a bad expansion valve.  I again told CW we needed to leave on Friday, so go ahead and next day the part in and I would pay the freight, even though it should have been warranty. 

To make a long story short, the part never got ordered, and I finally had to tell CW to put it back together and I would fix it back home in Ohio.  We left on Saturday, a day later than planned, and with absolutely no a/c after CW working on it.

Got home, and I looked on top of the generator, and all the parts CW had taken apart were still riding on it. I couldn't believe it.  It hadn't been put back together.

Needless to say, I now avoid Camping World for anything other than an occasional part or supply item.  That's the amount of my business they have earned.

Sorry for all the issues, sounds familiar. I didn't use camping world, but I think the matrix system and satellite systems are too complicated for repair at "most" RV repair facilities. Furthermore, my experience with technical assistance at Winnebago has not been rewarding.

I had (of many problems) a problem where the outside TV set would not work with the BluRay player "signal weak".  After much ado, the Balun was bad, but I found that there is either no or minimal diagnostic trees available for these systems.

I worked with way more complex systems in automobiles for years, but for some reason, the RV companies have almost no diagnostic information available and try to blame vendors for their quality issues.

This puts the RV dealership in the parts changing role, hoping to swap the right parts and then be compensated by Winnebago. 

Plus as we all know, the more the vehicle is touched by service personnel, the more chances for lot damage, missing screws, grease smears, tracked up floors and seats etc.

I ended up not hardly using the motorhome the first year (last year) because of slide, generator or misc. issues which made the motorhome unreliable.

I am a little confused here... are we bashing Winnebago or Camping world ? They can't all be bad.
 

carson said:

I am a little confused here... are we bashing Winnebago or Camping world ? They can't all be bad.

Click to expand...

As I said in my initial post, you can draw your own conclusions.  I only attempted to present the facts.

From my experience buying a motorhome.  Once they have your money, they could care less about providing service, and that includes most dealers.  Once they have your money, they hope that you just go away.

In hind site, you should have probably told them that you wanted all items fixed by a certain date, or that you wouldnt buy the rig.

Good Luck,

Paul

khogle2 said:

I worked with way more complex systems in automobiles for years, but for some reason, the RV companies have almost no diagnostic information available and try to blame vendors for their quality issues.

This puts the RV dealership in the parts changing role, hoping to swap the right parts and then be compensated by Winnebago. 

Plus as we all know, the more the vehicle is touched by service personnel, the more chances for lot damage, missing screws, grease smears, tracked up floors and seats etc.

I ended up not hardly using the motorhome the first year (last year) because of slide, generator or misc. issues which made the motorhome unreliable.

Click to expand...

Some additional information.  I am an engineer by training and profession.  I worked for General Motors for 30 years in manufacturing and manufacturing engineering, including stints as Industrial Engineering Manager for midsize car lines and a terminal assignment teaching and implementing the Toyota Production System at a car assembly plant in Fairfax, KS.  I am currently a Six Sigma Master Black Belt, developing and teaching professional certification courses in Lean Six Sigma for Florida Atlantic University.  Lean Six Sigma is a fact and data driven problem solving approach that focuses on improving customer satisfaction, improving quality and reducing the cost of operations.

My wife had a 30 year career as an emergency and critical care nurse in NY, NY.  If she had done her job in the same fashion as the folks at Winnebago and Camping World, there would have been a need for a lot more cemeteries, as a lot of people would have needlessly died.  And I say this with all seriousness.

The RV industry today is where the domestic automotive industry was in the 1970's - i.e. building vehicles with obvious problems and shipping them off to the dealers to fix.  Camping World today is much like the GM dealers were back at that time - overwhelmed trying to fix problems that they should never have to deal with (and doing a poor job of it). 

If I am being paid to install the bottle that holds the soap under the sink should I be expected to put the bottle in every vehicle?  Of Course!  If I am responsible to build the pump that operates the windshield washer system, should I be expected to do my job correctly every time?  Of course!

The people who do these jobs at Winnebago and at their suppliers expect that every can of food that they purchase at the grocery store will be fresh and wholesome.  They expect that every gallon of gasoline that they buy should be free of water and debris.  They expect that every airline flight that they board will arrive safely at the intended airport.  They need (and must) to apply the same expectations to their own job performance.

The reason that the domestic RV industry has not woken up to the fact that they are in miserable shape is that they don't have any competition that is any better.  GM, Ford and Chrysler were all equally lousy in the 1970's and no one had much of an alternative as far as what vehicle to purchase.  The Arab oil embargo of 1973 changed all that.  People started buying Toyota Corollas because they got good gas mileage and found out that they they were orders of magnitude better in terms of quality.  As a result, the domestic market share at GM fell from close to 50% in the late 1960's to less than 20% today.  Oh - and the company went bankrupt in the interim.

If we had it to do over again, here is what we would do:

We would order a coach to be built and delivered to a dealer (not buy one that had been abused on a dealer's lot).

We would order the coach to be delivered to a dealer located very close to the manufacturer's factory, at a time of year where the weather would permit living in the coach, and at a time of year that was not at the peak of seasonal demand.

We would hire a professional inspector to go over every detail of the coach prior to taking delivery from the dealer, and would insist on all issues being corrected prior to paying for the coach,

We would then live in the coach for a period of time, try every system, and take it back to the factory for correction of all remaining issues.

Paul & Ann said:

From my experience buying a motorhome.  Once they have your money, they could care less about providing service, and that includes most dealers.  Once they have your money, they hope that you just go away.

In hind site, you should have probably told them that you wanted all items fixed by a certain date, or that you wouldnt buy the rig.

Good Luck,

Paul

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We agree.  See my subsequent post)

You discovered you bought an RV which is not engineered and manufactured like an automobile.  Good punch list, I kept one of those going for several months and went to factory service in Forest City where the tech knocked all of them out in five days.

BTW, Camping World doesn't have an anecdotally stellar performance reputation.

I feel your pain but don't ever think that you can buy an RV without multiple problems. You should visit one of the factories. many of them use colored masking tape in the final inspection to highlight areas that need attention. In some units there is more masking tape than walls ! QC is next to nonexistent. This is why many people buy used. I hope things get better for you!

If this was the only "brand new" delivery problem I'd ever heard I'd send you my sympathy and condolences. But, I've heard this story time after time after time. I have the punch lists from my rig and it's 3 visits back to the factory, which fortunately was nearby the original owner.

Little things were wrong with my rig that the guy in the factory new were wrong when he did them. Screws that were stripped, for example. But, the factory schedule doesnt' allow time to stop and fix it, so it gets sent on down the line. The soap bottle? It's in some other rig after somebody broke theirs. It was swapped out to make another customer happy, just like they did for you on the TV parts from the other new rig.

I'm not a patient guy. I know that. If the list hadn't been completed as promised in December we would have negotiated another date with the understanding that all items would be completed on that date or my deposit would be refunded. I would simply not have completed the sale until all the known items were fixed. There are always unknown items to be fixed, but the company being slow to fix the known ones is a sign.

Thank you for the documented timeline. It will make others aware of what can happen and serves as a good example of perseverance. It also reinforces my motto of always buying used. My rig was 3 years old and all those new rig repairs had been completed.

Ken

While I assume this was a new coach (you gave the year but never any history on the coach), having it brought in from another dealer is something I have done only once and that was with a car.  Never again.  In your case, I think you got a coach that was cannibalized for other coaches at the original dealer (and which your dealer resorted to in order to fix your problems).  I really wonder why you paid the full amount without the problems being corrected.  You were not in any particular hurry based on the amount of time you lived on the CW lot. It seems the TV problems constituted the large majority of your problems.  I only have a used coach but I have just about convinced myself to forget satellite TV.  Fine if there are some local stations where I happen to stop but I have a nice library of DVDs to watch.  My used coach has two satellite antennas - one a crankup and the other a dome.  Maybe sometime in the future I will try to learn something about them but the simple fact that there are two antennas tells me there were problems in the past.

I do hope you get all your problems ironed out because you sure put up with a lot of misery and seem to be ready to throw a lot of blame out there too.  But you are being coy about who to blame telling the reader to make their choice.  It may have been better use of your time to load up and head to Forest City, Iowa and get the problems sorted out once and for all.  But then, being winter in Iowa may have made that not practical.  I think the root of your problem was not recognized initially by you but having a coach brought in that you could not have fully wrung out before purchasing lead to a lot of misery.  I wish you well in the future.

Bill, the reason for the two satellite antennas on your motor home probably is that it came with the crank up and the owner wanted the convenience of pushing a button to get the TV working. Mine has a working crank up satellite antenna, but I like the easy one button dome and the ability to have two satellite receivers, one in living room and one in bedroom.

Roger, I suggest you attempt to contact Marcus Lemonis of Camping World with your issues.  He purports to be very proactive with such things and this will test him.  I agree with all that Camping World in general (and I can't figure out why) doesn't want to be a full service RV servicer (they will install what they sell, but it's tough as heck to get  them to repair things).  I take mine to a dealer  (30 miles away) who seems to want the business.  Having said that, Camping World has a great store of other things, just not service.

Apart from that, you have gone above and beyond to get a perfect RV.  Unfortunately, experience suggests that RVs are not perfect, although it should be more perfect for a new or late model RV.

From what I get from the OP's issues is that CW did not have Tech's trained in the new Winnebago A/V system they are using. Numerious mentions of CW's tech's spending hours one the ph with Dish, Winnebago, and the HDMI system mfgr. It seems from what I read of what the OP was trying to do with his A/V system was rather complicated and should have been done by an A/V systems installer not CW.  Also sort of sounds like typical CW service. Sorry the OP had such issues, but 1 bad experience shouldn't sour some one on a particular maker of a product. 

rvandrew said:

Roger, I suggest you attempt to contact Marcus Lemonis of Camping World with your issues.  He purports to be very proactive with such things and this will test him.  I agree with all that Camping World in general (and I can't figure out why) doesn't want to be a full service RV servicer (they will install what they sell, but it's tough as heck to get  them to repair things).  I take mine to a dealer  (30 miles away) who seems to want the business.  Having said that, Camping World has a great store of other things, just not service.

Apart from that, you have gone above and beyond to get a perfect RV.  Unfortunately, experience suggests that RVs are not perfect, although it should be more perfect for a new or late model RV.

Click to expand...

I agree wholeheartedly with rvandrew.  I had similar problems with the service department at CW of Bartow, Florida.  My problem was resolved after harassing the general manager there.  I threatened to contact Marcus Lemonis and that's when I got results.  However, be realistic because as rvandrew said, "...RVs are not perfect,...

Winnebago?s are not produced in the quantities; hundreds of Winnebago?s vs. millions of Hondas, so that flaws in the engineering process and manufacturing process can be engineered out.  You WILL have problems with these complicated vehicles.  If you cannot live with the fact that that RV?s are less reliable and not as well built as a Toyota, then I suggest you buy a new automobile each year and stay at motels during your travels, you will save both money and aggravation.

Re: Camping World, I am reluctant to buy toilet paper from that organization, I would never purchase an RV.

I certainly would agree on Camping World.  Actually, I just can't imagine anyone buying a motorhome from any Camping World based on my experiences with them.

However, I somewhat disagree that we have to just accept that since motorhomes are built in lower quantities than autos, any expectation of reasonable quality is unrealistic.  IMO, the reason many manufacturers continue to sell RV's with obvious defects that should never have left the factory, is that many RV buyers are blinded by the 'bling' and, frankly, don't do their homework.  Apparently those buyers are in sufficient numbers to limit pressure on the manufacturers to really do some true QC in their build process.

I believe Entegra is paving the way to take more of the class A market from Winnebago and Tiffin especially and perhaps some of Newmar's business.  They seem to have a solidly built coach with fewer out-of-the-box quality issues than others.  And their customer service is reported to be absolutely stellar.  The main complaint is their somewhat limited floor plan selection.  However, their decision to limit floor plans and customization allows them to eliminate variables in their build process.  Variation is often the enemy of quality (except maybe very expensive custom rigs like Newells, Prevost conversions...).

Very good points Gary.  There is an old saying that the dealer is the last 50 feet of the assembly line, but some of the dealer's service departments (like CW) don't have a lot going for them.  I actually like to contrast a motorhome to a stick house, for those who have bought a brand new house (or had one built), was everything exactly the way you expected it to be on the walk-through?  Hello punch list.  This is the same for middle-class house to a mansion (my brother-in-law has one (mansion) with appropriate horror stories.)

John Canfield wrote:  ?You discovered you bought an RV which is not engineered and manufactured like an automobile.?

Quite true ? but there is no reason why they cannot and should not be.  I spent the first 30 years of my career learning how to do so, and the past 16 years teaching others.  Winnebago and the other RV manufacturers are spending a huge amount of money to compensate dealers for fixing problems that they could correct at the source for a fraction of the amount that they are spending to fix them in the field.  This does not make sense from cost/profit standpoint, nor does it make sense from a customer satisfaction standpoint. 

Bill N. wrote:  ?I really wonder why you paid the full amount without the problems being corrected. ?

We had already sold our house and were ready to move into the coach for full time traveling.  We took the General Manager at his word that the problems that we knew about with the coach would be corrected in a timely manner, which they were not.  Many additional problems that we were not aware of became apparent once we moved into the coach. 

Bill N. wrote:  ?But you are being coy about who to blame telling the reader to make their choice.?

Not being coy at all.  I simply stated what our experience was in the hope that others who are thinking about going down the same path that we did would be well informed.

Cant Wait wrote:  ?It seems from what I read of what the OP was trying to do with his A/V system was rather complicated and should have been done by an A/V systems installer not CW.?

We had a Satellite TV antenna and two receivers installed by Camping World.  Winnebago uses a factory installed HDMI Matrix box and factory installed wiring to route the signals from the input devices (DVD player, satellite receivers, etc.) to the televisions.  All we wanted to do was to be able to turn on the TV and watch television.  And in my humble opinion that is not and should not be ?complicated?. 

Tomnnva wrote:  ?If you cannot live with the fact that that RV?s are less reliable and not as well built as a Toyota, then I suggest you buy a new automobile each year and stay at motels during your travels, you will save both money and aggravation.?

My point is that none of us should need to live with inferior quality and workmanship.  I doubt if the RV industry will ever reach the level of quality and reliability that Toyota and other automakers have, because there don?t seem to be any market forces (either in the form of competitors who make better products or customers who demand better products) to drive them in that direction.  The truth is that the manufacturers are content to offer products that are not as good as they should be, and customers are willing to accept these products.  We bought the motorhome because we did NOT want to travel by car and did NOT want to stay in motels.

John Canfield wrote:  ?I actually like to contrast a motorhome to a stick house, for those who have bought a brand new house (or had one built), was everything exactly the way you expected it to be on the walk-through??

We have had four brand new homes built under contract over the years.  Were there problems?  Yes.  Were they easily and promptly corrected?  In almost all cases, yes.  We had one issue with water leakage around a window in the last of the four that required a lot of time and effort to resolve, but it was eventually resolved.  Were some of them things that were simply poor workmanship?  Yes.