Norcold 'Almost' Fire

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TurtleKent

TurtleKent

Active member
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Posts
42
Location
Cincinnati, OH
Here's the Norcold 'Almost' Fire I discovered in my previous 2004 Itasca Horizon. Since I posted the photo on an active Norcold thread on iRV2, I thought I should include it here as well.  My Norcold 1201 was installed in the slide(two side vents) apparently installed with baffling as specified by Norcold.  I don't see whether it was a side vent or top vent would have changed the scorching of the plywood.  The stack was 2" from the plywood. Unknown when the 'Almost' fire occurred. Do you suppose Winnebago treats their lauan plywood with a flame retardant??
 

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TurtleKent said:
..Do you suppose Winnebago treats their lauan plywood with a flame retardant??
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I have no idea.  If your fridge was on a slide, it was side vented.

So glad my Nocold is in a landfill somewhere in Virginia  :).
 
Very much like mine removed last week ...lots of scorched wood, a little charred, and a significant chunk of the roof styrofoam at the end of the roof vent was melted/gone. The chimney was very close AND a deflector on the top of the chimney directed the exhaust heat into that area. The roof vents are centered over the refrigerator rather than the chimney stack. If the vent went further past the stack end my damage would not have happened.
 
As the cooling unit approaches the ultimate failure point, operating temperatures go up dramatically and can reach nearly 800 degrees F. before it shuts down permanently. That's sufficient to char most wood and maybe make it burst into flame spontaneously.

I observed how close the wood was to the boiler and flue in my own American Coach and decided to add a layer of insulation under a piece of flashing along side the boiler. Just in case. Your photo has convinced me I was right (might I say prescient?) to do so!
 
Looking at Kent's pic, I see the same problem as in my rig. It isn't proximity to the cooling unit/boiler ...it is chimney exhaust heat being DIRECTED at combustible materials!!  This is not a Norcold problem ...it is a design/build error by the builder. I am linking two pics ... one of the damage to the end of the ceiling vent in my coach, and the other the Norcold chimney. Note the heat deflector cap on top of the chimney ...look at Kent's pic and you will see something very similar. With his sidewall vent I can see his needing something like that, but mine has a roof vent. Had it not been for the chimney cap, the chimney heat would have gone straight up in my rig (and perhaps melted the roof vent?). Directing it toward the open area behind the fridge ...as one side of the cap did in my rig ...helps it dissipate w/o causing damage, but directing it into wood, etc ...as the other side of the cap did in my rig ...is just asking for trouble. http://www.pjrider.com/NorcoldHeatDamage.jpg http://www.pjrider.com/NorcoldChimney.jpg
 
I added an Oatey Flame Protector cloth(?) (under $20. at Lowes and Home Depot) over the burned area of plywood.  Better than nothing. 

As I recall the stack temps I measured were just over 200? whether operating on LP or electric.  That temp is not a problem, but obviously at one time it got a lot hotter, and charred the plywood. I'd say fault with design/installation would depend on whether Winnie or Norcold supplied/specified the deflector, and how it was installed.  I could rotate the deflector easily(design problem) but I didn't see that my changing the rotation would deflect heat to a 'safer' direction.  The safest way would be to extend the stack thru the roof(cannot be done with a slide install) so that excessive heat/flame is vented beyond any flammable material.  I suspect that would pose drafting problems when operating the refrig while driving.  Just my 2 cents.


http://www.oatey.com/products/copper-installation/cleaning-tools/flame-protector
 
We found similar scorched wood near our Norcold 1211 vent stack. After looking at the Norcold installation manual, we could not determine that Winnebago had failed to follow instructions, so we designed a flashing between the paneling and the vent exhaust that would leave an air space between the flashing & paneling, so as to work something on the order of a double wall vent pipe. We hope this was sufficient to eliminate any danger. We also run the frig off the inverter when driving. My thinking is the exhaust temp might be a little less on elect.
At the time, we did take a lot of temperature readings & researched at what temps the wood begins to scorch, but we no longer remember the results of that research.
 
I disconnected my gas line to the unit. Just use the a/c gen between RV parks to keep the thing cool because of all the posts showing the burnt areas. Much rather pay extra gas for gen then fire from fridge. Art
 
Art In Mobile said:
I disconnected my gas line to the unit. Just use the a/c gen between RV parks to keep the thing cool because of all the posts showing the burnt areas. Much rather pay extra gas for gen then fire from fridge. Art
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The only problem with that is that even on electricity the boiler still gets hot and can cause the same problem. The problem is not the fuel source itself but seems to be the manner in which the units were installed without protection or too near a flammable surface.
 
I disconnected my gas line to the unit. Just use the a/c gen between RV parks to keep the thing cool because of all the posts showing the burnt areas. Much rather pay extra gas for gen then fire from fridge.
Click to expand...

Wishful thinking, Art. The fire issue has nothing to do with gas vs electric. In fact, nearly all the Norcold 1200 fires occurred while operating in the 120vac mode.  There was another one in Foley, AL, last week.
 
My thinking is if the hydrogen gas which is also present in the tubes gets out I don't want an open flame right there to ignite the hydrogen. I was not aware that the A/C heater elements which should be wound tightly around the tubes they are heating would be making enough heat to burn wood. Is there any insulation around the heater elements? I have not taken one apart to look. If on gas & a/c they are catching on fire we don't have much of a chance.  I better look into RR.
 
The electric heater elements are laid alongside the boiler and the gas flame is underneath. Both produce pretty much the same amount of heat, since both have to drive the same process. In the typical failure mode, the metal in the boiler and adjacent tubing is hot enough (near 800 F.) to cause the ammonia-based coolant to burst into flame all by itself.

Logic says the open gas flame probably has a slightly higher chance of igniting something that comes near it, and escaping hydrogen gas, if any, is surely a candidate. However, the gas flame does not seem to be the common source of fire that many people think, and 120vac mode produces at least its proportional share of fridge fires.
 
When I was troubleshooting my last Nocold problem (two years ago), a factory tech told me the fridge will run a little cooler on propane due to more heat being generated vs the electric element.
 
In fact, when we were checking to see if our Norcold fridge was included in the recall, (previous motorhome), the recall notice said the fridge had to be unplugged until the repairs were made - not disconnected from propane. It's been a few years and I don't remember why they needed to be unplugged, but it was in big bold print.

Kev
 
herekittykitty said:
Anybody have this unit?

http://www.arprv.com/

I just read about it in Escapees magazine.
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Several of us here have the ARP control, on both Dometic and Norcold refrigerators.  It works as advertised.
 
Kevin Means said:
In fact, when we were checking to see if our Norcold fridge was included in the recall, (previous motorhome), the recall notice said the fridge had to be unplugged until the repairs were made - not disconnected from propane. ..
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The reason is because at that moment you notified Nocold and they said to unplug/turn off, they absolved themselves of any liability due to a fire from that moment forward.
 
If it's installed correctly, it will shut off the refrigerator before the boiler temperature gets too high to cause failure. 
 
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