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Author Topic: Form 8840 for Canadians visiting the U.S.  (Read 5046 times)

leapfrog

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Form 8840 for Canadians visiting the U.S.
« on: July 03, 2014, 09:30:21 PM »
I have been filing Form 8840 for years, but not separate ones for my husband and I. I hope this is proper. Leapfrog

Tom

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Re: Form 8840 for Canadians visiting the U.S.
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2014, 09:49:32 PM »
Steve hasn't been here for some time, and so may not see your message.
Tom.  Need help? Click the Help button in the toolbar above.

Alfa38User

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Re: Form 8840 for Canadians visiting the U.S.
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2014, 10:04:08 PM »
I will take a crack at it in Steve's stead...  Form 8840 has to be filed for each person who meets the requirements according to the instructions. If you have been filing for only one person while both travelled together and met the requirements, you have been filing incorrectly (but at least one was filed). Many Canadians I have spoken with have never even heard about this form and they have been snowbirding for years.

I was  filling mine out online and then printing it, and mailing both together. (They could not be filed on line unfortunately.) However checking this out just now, it appears that the filling out is no longer supported but a blank form can be still printed. This made it very easy as the only thing you had to change for the second person was the Name, SIN,  and Passport number before printing the second one. The other questions/answers required likely remained the same.

But not filling out this form may catch up with the 'unbelievers' shortly as both the Canadian and American boarder systems will be tied together and they will share all this nice data (entry/departure, time in country etc) automagically. The implementation date was to be this June 31 30 but has been delayed pending the required legislation. Even though the F8840 is a US IRS form, the new system will undoubtedly give them a leg up on discovering more aliens as potential taxpayers.

You can read all about this new initiative here courtesy of the Canadian Snowbirds Association:
http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?ca=e8eb7aab-23ea-4e12-be41-4819ee988452&c=ef5c8b00-4260-11e3-966b-d4ae527548e1&ch=ef611ee0-4260-11e3-966b-d4ae527548e1
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 09:58:39 PM by Alfa38User »
Stu
Montréal, Canada 🍁
Snowbird, Naples Florida
Alfa Gold 38 (2000) 5ver (parked!)

"Of course I talk to myself, sometimes I need expert advise!!!"

bucks2

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Re: Form 8840 for Canadians visiting the U.S.
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2014, 12:16:45 PM »
June 31?  ::)

Ken

buchanan

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Re: Form 8840 for Canadians visiting the U.S.
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2014, 02:58:56 PM »
I have been filing Form 8840 for years, but not separate ones for my husband and I. I hope this is proper. Leapfrog

why file anything? If your a CDN with a CDN passport, NO us income and stay less tan 183 days its pointless to fill this form out
and my opinion is  its a invastion of privacy by the US authoritys

Hfx_Cdn

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Re: Form 8840 for Canadians visiting the U.S.
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2014, 05:27:08 PM »
     Nevertheless it is the Law in the US and we enter as a privilege not a right.  So, I guess we all have to submit the form if we meet the criteria, and it is not as simple as 183 days in any given year.  It is a compilation of certain percentages for each of the last 3 years, plus the IRS laws significantly differ in interpretation from tourist entry laws.
    Plus as I said in another string, and Stu said here, there is now free flow of information from both Canada & the US.
    So, like it or not, we all have to start thinking about submitting the form once we exceed around 4 months in the US.

Ed
Ed & Donna
Winter-Pinellas Park FL, Summer- Maritime Canada
2000 Coachmen Catalina 34' DP (owned 2004 to 2015)
2006 Jeep Liberty Toad

buchanan

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Re: Form 8840 for Canadians visiting the U.S.
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2014, 05:44:04 PM »
     Nevertheless it is the Law in the US and we enter as a privilege not a right.  So, I guess we all have to submit the form if we meet the criteria, and it is not as simple as 183 days in any given year.  It is a compilation of certain percentages for each of the last 3 years, plus the IRS laws significantly differ in interpretation from tourist entry laws.
    Plus as I said in another string, and Stu said here, there is now free flow of information from both Canada & the US.
    So, like it or not, we all have to start thinking about submitting the form once we exceed around 4 months in the US.

Ed
could be your right and could be your misinturpeting this form. I personally see no need to fill out this form and never have.I know many many people whom simply snowbird in the US and under the 183 day rule and no one fills out this form. If your CDN, simply holidaying and don't and never have done business in the us why would u have to fill out this form.it is  just dumb. my take on it.In my 40 years of crossing I have never been asked to or if I have already filled out this form

Alfa38User

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Re: Form 8840 for Canadians visiting the U.S.
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2014, 10:57:46 PM »
Well, that is certainly  your decision to make but..... 

Mine is and always has been to follow the law and avoid difficulties which will permit me to continue to spend my winter in the warmth and avoid any hassles at the border. I believe it has been very much an honour system up to now but with the new collaboration, my feeling is that it will make it much easier for the IRS to look around even though it is not the primary purpose of the new collaborative effort, border security and the enforcement of the legal length of stay are. Everyone should understand by now what a problem illegal immigration has been for both Canada and the USA.

It took us 3 years  before we met the criteria for filing the first time.

Misinterpreting the form?? I don't think so and the Canadian Snowbird Association would probably agree as they send each member a sheet yearly detailing step by step exactly how to complete the necessary calculations to determine if you meet the criteria or not, along with a blank form should you need it.

BTW, It is an IRS form, it is not filled out at the border nor asked about when crossing but it is to be submitted by mail to the IRS by April 30(?)  of each year only if you meet the criteria. The full title of the form is: Closer Connection Exception Statement for Aliens and simply states that we have a closer connection to Canada than the USA and supplies proof of that. As Canadians, we are exempt from paying taxes to the IRS as we pay them in Canada, despite our long term stays south of the border. Nothing to get uptight about!!!

FWIW....
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 10:13:44 AM by Alfa38User »
Stu
Montréal, Canada 🍁
Snowbird, Naples Florida
Alfa Gold 38 (2000) 5ver (parked!)

"Of course I talk to myself, sometimes I need expert advise!!!"

buchanan

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Re: Form 8840 for Canadians visiting the U.S.
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2014, 11:13:51 PM »
like I say a lot to do about nothing. If your simply going to usa for a visit and have no income connections this form does not need to be addressed
I have been going for years and have only heard about this form here today of any great length.if it was mandatory iam sure the border guards would be warning us at one point or another

Hfx_Cdn

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Re: Form 8840 for Canadians visiting the U.S.
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2014, 05:50:29 AM »
    As Stu said, do what you will, but one last word, the USA is one of 2 countries in the world that considers income earned anywhere in the world as taxable.  While there are treaties that say you will not be required to pay double taxes, there are several differences between our tax systems, such things as TFSA, RESP and similar instruments are not tax exempt in the US, so could be claimed by the IRS, plus it could cost you thousands to prove you do not owe them taxes.
   The bottom line is, do what you want, but be forewarned, you are not dealing with border services, it is the IRS.

Ed
Ed & Donna
Winter-Pinellas Park FL, Summer- Maritime Canada
2000 Coachmen Catalina 34' DP (owned 2004 to 2015)
2006 Jeep Liberty Toad

buchanan

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Re: Form 8840 for Canadians visiting the U.S.
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2014, 08:25:29 AM »
    As Stu said, do what you will, but one last word, the USA is one of 2 countries in the world that considers income earned anywhere in the world as taxable.  While there are treaties that say you will not be required to pay double taxes, there are several differences between our tax systems, such things as TFSA, RESP and similar instruments are not tax exempt in the US, so could be claimed by the IRS, plus it could cost you thousands to prove you do not owe them taxes.
   The bottom line is, do what you want, but be forewarned, you are not dealing with border services, it is the IRS.

Ed
.If a person owned a house + property and lived in it down there for 6 months and has a US bank account etc etc
I can see the wisdom of filing out this form but that would be the only reason. just because u take your Rv and travel the USA for a few weeks or months there would no reasonable reason to fill out such a form
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 08:31:49 AM by buchanan »

Ned

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Re: Form 8840 for Canadians visiting the U.S.
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2014, 08:40:39 AM »
If you are required to file the form and fail to do so, you will eventually find yourself in a prolonged discussion at a border crossing, and it won't be a friendly conservation.
-- Ned -- Fulltimer 1997-2013
1997 Holiday Rambler Endeavor LE
2007 GMC Canyon

Alfa38User

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Re: Form 8840 for Canadians visiting the U.S.
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2014, 08:45:13 AM »
What you do not seem to understand is that the IRS and Border Services/Immigration are two different entities. Neither play in the others sandbox just as it is in Canada. The IRS is a law unto itself.

There would be very good reason for them to contact you if they even suspect there may be money owed. It will be up to YOU to prove otherwise unlike the criminal legal system where the prosecution has to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.  'Guilty until proven innocent' in  all cases where taxes are involved is the standard. Revenue Canada is NO different BTW.

It is already mandated whether you choose to believe/accept it or not. I am not sure what drives the enforcement at this stage but they may have one more tool in the tool box very shortly.


Believe what you wish and act accordingly!!

This post will end my participation in this discussion.......

« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 10:08:10 AM by Alfa38User »
Stu
Montréal, Canada 🍁
Snowbird, Naples Florida
Alfa Gold 38 (2000) 5ver (parked!)

"Of course I talk to myself, sometimes I need expert advise!!!"

buchanan

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Re: Form 8840 for Canadians visiting the U.S.
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2014, 09:00:56 AM »
If you are required to file the form and fail to do so, you will eventually find yourself in a prolonged discussion at a border crossing, and it won't be a friendly conservation.

that's the point your not required to fill out the form and the border guard will never ask you if you have I seriously doubt they even know this form exists

there is a lot of needless fear mongering here regarding this form. end of story

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Form 8840 for Canadians visiting the U.S.
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2014, 09:06:32 AM »
My only comment on this will be that odds are good that the lack of this required form will never be noticed, but IF it ever does get noticed, you definitely do NOT want to go head-to-head with the US Internal Revenue Service. Terms like "reasonable reason" are not in their vocabulary, and the have the power to confiscate your possessions until you can prove they have no cause. And failure to fill out a form they feel is required is considered due cause.
Gary
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Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

buchanan

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Re: Form 8840 for Canadians visiting the U.S.
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2014, 09:11:19 AM »
My only comment on this will be that odds are good that the lack of this required form will never be noticed, but IF it ever does get noticed, you definitely do NOT want to go head-to-head with the US Internal Revenue Service. Terms like "reasonable reason" are not in their vocabulary, and the have the power to confiscate your possessions until you can prove they have no cause. And failure to fill out a form they feel is required is considered due cause.
Found this and explains it pretty clear;
(a) you were in the U.S. for at least 31 days in 2013, and (b) you get a total of 183 or greater when you add i) the number of days you were in the U.S. in 2013 (ii) one-third of the number of days you were in the U.S. in 2012, and iii) one-sixth of the number of days you were in the U.S. in 2011

 If you meet the Substantial Presence Test, you are taxable in the U.S. as a resident, unless you establish, in a manner set out in the rules, that you have a closer connection to a foreign country, in your case, Canada. The manner set out in the rules is to file a Form 8840 by the 15th of June in the year following the tax year. If you do not meet the Substantial Presence Test, you do not need to file anything.

so no its not mandatory as I said and one should file one if you do I will agree with that.HOWEVER one can clearly see its not going to be required to cross as you have SIX momths by law AFTER the tax tear ends to file a form 8840

Alfa38User

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Re: Form 8840 for Canadians visiting the U.S.
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2014, 09:25:41 AM »
Yes It is very Clear, and always has been to us who file!!!

Did you try it with your numbers? If so, did you exceed the magic number (183) -AKA The "Substantial Presence Test"??  Did you need to file??

Did you learn anything from our discussion???, I hope so 8) 

" Here endeth the lesson"!!!

Good luck.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 10:22:37 AM by Alfa38User »
Stu
Montréal, Canada 🍁
Snowbird, Naples Florida
Alfa Gold 38 (2000) 5ver (parked!)

"Of course I talk to myself, sometimes I need expert advise!!!"

Tom

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Re: Form 8840 for Canadians visiting the U.S.
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2014, 09:57:49 AM »
I split this discussion on form 8840 from the prior topic.
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buchanan

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Re: Form 8840 for Canadians visiting the U.S.
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2014, 10:23:07 AM »
Yes It is very Clear!!!

Did you try it with your numbers? If so, did you exceed the magic number (183) -The "Substantial Presence Test"??  Did you need to file??

Did you learn anything from our discussion???, I hope so 8) 

Good luck.
I said it voluntary, its not mandatory. they also say that if u don't file one you "MAY" be subjected to further questions regarding your residence etc

 

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