The Day the Music Died: Where did all of the music go! ??

I've seen them more than once.  I believe some of the current members went over from Norm Benners band when he and Janice moved out of the area.  I played with the Benners for several years.  Norm's son David is one of the hottest bass players around and Janice's son Kevin is a physician/musician/crazy man extraordinaire - the founder of 'Burning Uke', AKA Dr. Sparkles.

Small world.  Where are you now?

Aye, definitely a small world. The other 'founder' I mentioned was Roger Levinson; He still plays trumpet with them, and is in the videos.

Where are you now?

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We moved out to the California Delta when we retired. Bought this house as our "future retirement home" while we were still working. We'd boated on the Delta since the 80's and, having this house (while we still worked) made it too easy to extend our weekends by staying over on Sunday night.

Tom said:

Stan, maybe some "opposing views" and some curiosity ...

Help me out here; What's "wrong" with Andrew Lloyd Weber's work? I enjoy most of his music, and wish I had a small fraction of his composition/creative abilities.

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Gary is suggesting pretty much the same thing when he says:"Andrew Lloyd Weber? I think he has written as much good stuff as Rogers & Hammerstein or the Gershwin brothers" just when I was about to use Rogers & Hammerstein as the antithesis of Andrew Lloyd Webber! Webber sounds sort of low key ho hum from beginning to end: nothing new or different within a show, or even from show-to-show. It just totally lacks any kind of musical originality or genius.

Lloyd Webber's genius is probably best summed up amongst many accusations of plagiarism by  Dutch composer Louis Andriessen: "There are two sorts of stealing (in music) - taking something and doing nothing with it, or going to work on what you've stolen. The first is plagiarism. Andrew Lloyd Webber has yet to think up a single note; in fact, the poor guy's never invented one note by himself!".

I have studied Rogers' music in depth, and never cease to be amazed by his absolute genius: originality, diversity, and awesomely complex chord structures.

So . . . how do the critics compare the two:

Academy Awards: Rogers 15; Webber 1;

Tony Awards: Rogers 35; Webber 7

Emmy Awards: Rogers 2; Webber 0

Pulitzer Prize: Rogers 2; Webber 0 (Oklahoma! and South Pacific)

Tom said:

One of the older players in our uke band perceives that post-40's music is "rock and roll", and she dislikes rock & roll. It makes for some interesting discussion when we introduce "new" numbers to our portfolio.

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I started to play some of the old rock and roll standards from the 50s, over ten years ago after getting a Yamaha keyboard; and speaking of I, IV, V, I was amazed at how simple it all was; an observation shared with MuddyPaws who agrees: "The 50's was all about the 3 chord song."

Tom said:

Interesting observation Stan. I grew up attending one of the numerous Welsh chapels in our village  (three times on Sunday). The hymn singing was indescribable, and the pipe organ (see photo) was an incredible instrument. Once a year the congregations of the various chapels (different denominations) got together for a "gymanfa ganu" (festival of hymn singing).

Aye, but we try. While being interviewed by a Bay Area news organization, I was asked what playing (strumming) the ukulele had brought to me. My reply: "I've sung a cappella all my life, and now I'm finally able to accompany myself on an instrument".

Edit: FWIW that's me in the photo with Ozzie Morris, the organist. My Dad snapped the pic from the balcony, and I scanned the print years later.

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I cannot sing a cappella! I was given a voice left over from a cigarette-smoking bull frog. So that is why I am so dependant upon musical instruments.

When I was a young fellow, just recently married I played a tenor ukulele, which was pretty much useless, because I cannot sing. So I got a guitar and learned to play it in a manner that some thought was pretty good. I know that must have been totally awesome, because my wife took my precious instrument to the next door neighbour who was conducting a garage sale, and in exchange, proudly presented me a big wad of cash: $7.00!! That was 40 years ago. Lesson learned: NEVER mess with she who must be obeyed. ;D

Interesting perspective on Andrew Lloyd Weber. I hadn't heard/seen the stuff about plagiarism.

Gary is suggesting pretty much the same thing ...

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I must have read it wrong or maybe misunderstood; I thought that you and Gary had opposing views of Lloyd Weber  ???

... speaking of I, IV, V, I was amazed at how simple it all was;

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There's nowt wrong with 3-chord songs per se, although there's a big difference across the wide range of wide 3-chord songs written. As for simple, that suits me fine with my lack of music theory and limited playing ability.

... I played a tenor ukulele, which was pretty much useless, because I cannot sing.

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I assume that means you were strumming (chords on) the uke and therefore, without your voice, you were missing the melody. The lead guitar player for a local rock group joined our uke band last year. At the end of the first practice, I asked him how it went, and he said "I can't figure this out, and have no idea how to play this thing". The following week was quite different and, within a few weeks, he was playing stuff I didn't know could be played on a uke. He's one of the few folks in the band who can and does pick notes, and he has some solo parts in our concerts; Our Music Director and I look at each other in disbelief at what he can do picking the uke. I don't believe I've heard him sing in the band, but he has no problem picking the melody.

I didn't take "I,IV, V strumming" as a damnation of any and all music that uses a I, IV,V chord base. Rather, a comment on the many so-called musicians who mindlessly strum the basic three-chord sequence and mumble some all-but-meaningless lyrics.  Purely a qualitative statement.  The three chord sequence is inherent in nearly all western hemisphere music - that's why oriental or Indian music sounds so strange to us European-Americans.

While their certainly is a lot of trivial music around (e.g. the I, IV, V strumming stuff)

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I didn't take "I,IV, V strumming" as a damnation of any and all music that uses a I, IV,V chord base.

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Thanks for the clarification. Hope you can see why I was confused by the first quote above.

The three chord sequence is inherent in nearly all western hemisphere music ...

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Nearly all? I play almost no rock & roll, and I'm still learning to play blues, both genres using 3-chord progressions. I play a lot of 4-chord progressions such as I-vi-IV-V7 and I-ii-IV-V which were used in 1,000's of songs. Some of our musical experts might call these 5-chord progressions I-vi-IV-V7-I and I-ii-IV-V-I because they often return to the first chord. But, as I've said numerous times, I lack the music theory to speak with any authority; It's just what my ears tell me.

Time to return to my online music theory class.

The three chord sequence is inherent in nearly all western hemisphere music - that's why oriental or Indian music sounds so strange to us European-Americans.

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An interesting comparison of Western and Indian music suggests a different reason for the latter sounding "strange" to westerners:

"Indian classical music has 7 basic notes (Sa Re Ga Ma Pa Dha Ni), with five interspersed half-notes, resulting in a 12-note scale. Unlike the 12-note scale in Western music, the base frequency of the scale is not fixed, and inter-tonal gaps may also vary."

I find this mind boggling  ???

.... the base frequency of the scale is not fixed, and inter-tonal gaps may also vary."

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I'm reminded of one of the many parties we held at our prior home, where a rule of the house was that you didn't leave until you'd sung a song of your choice. One of my Indian-born colleagues burst into song, and his wife stared at him as if she'd never heard this stuff come out of his mouth before. It sounded really strange to me, and I put it down to too much booze. We'd already hid his car keys and decided he wasn't driving home. In retrospect, I'm wondering if he was actually singing "in tune"  ???

8Muddypaws,

I'd love to come and just hang out with you for awhile.  I'm sure I would learn a lot.

Tom said:

I must have read it wrong or maybe misunderstood; I thought that you and Gary had opposing views of Lloyd Weber  ???

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Perhaps . . . but no one is beyond hope. 

Tom said:

There's nothing wrong with 3-chord songs per se, although there's a big difference across the range of wide 3-chord songs written. As for simple, that suits me fine with my lack of music theory and limited playing ability.

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What's wrong with 3-cord songs?? How jealousy, envy, and all that kind of stuff??

Ever been to one of those high end restaurants that have an accomplished resident piano player?? They play songs that are ever so familiar, but they play the songs with awesome chord structures I have perhaps never heard before, but could neither duplicate nor write then down.

Can your speak Russian?? Nope. You can only speak the language you were raised in from the womb. Music is also a language; and what you can play, has a whole lot to do with the environment in which you were raised from the womb. Can I play jazz?? Nope!! I don't even understand it. At the outset, to be able to play jazz, you have to be black, and raised in Louisiana !! If you grew up in that kind of environment, you don't even need to take music lessons. Jazz just tends to pour from your fingertips from the outset.

Example: Boris Brott, conductor of the Hamilton Symphony Orchestra tells the endearing story of one day playing a piece of music he had never heard before, but he didn't know it's name. In his quest to solve the mystery, his mother revealed to him, the title of the composition, as well as the name of the composer: "That is the piece I practiced for the best part of the year while you were still in the womb"!!

In the same manner, having been raised in a liturgical music environment, I understand, and have learned to not only accept, but enjoy my destiny. While I might not be able to play jazz, or some of that awesome piano lounge music, I've learned that the things we seem to want most, are those things which are unattainable; and to that end, I have learned to enjoy the talent I have been given: to improvise so well and so effortlessly within my limited familiar musical environs.
Then there are the exceptions like Diana Krall, who can do anything!! Love her; love her music! She is absolutely amazing!![/quote]

Tom said:

The following week was quite different and, within a few weeks, he was playing stuff I didn't know could be played on a uke.

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Do you not find people like that, at least a little bit annoying.  ;D

LOL, I'll take that as a compliment, I guess.

I know hundreds of better musicians than I.  One of them is fairly close to you In Wisconsin.  (I assume the MN is Minnesota.....right next door, right?)

His name is John Smith.  Really!  Www.johnsmithmusic.com.  My favorite johnsmith song is 'Find Hope', followed by 'From His Window'.  Both are on his first CD.

I've met John several times and he's listened to my little songs and tells me I have an unusually cruel muse.  (I think it was the one about SIDS that got him)

I use his songs for teaching all the time.

Ever been to one of those high end restaurants that have an accomplished resident piano player??

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Yes, and I've been known to spend the entire visit looking over the pianist's shoulder, wishing I could play like that. One time I did this, I missed the meal, and my wife and guest had left the restaurant before I was done watching the pianist.

Do you not find people like that, at least a little bit annoying.

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Not in the least. In fact, the guitar/uke player in question is one of the most modest people I've come across.

Yeah, a guy walked up to my desk one day and said he heard I played.  I asked him the same question and he said 'a little'.

Well, his 'little' was being one of Joe Passes primer students and having started playing professionally at the age of 12.  It took him all of 15 seconds to analyze the alternate tuning fingerstyle rip I had been working on for weeks and wrest it out of my hands & run with it.  This guy is nuts!  I've seen him play heavy metal touch system with jazz scales through a guitar synth behind a Celtic band.  (Yeah, wrap your music theory around that!) And nobody can figure out where all that sound is coming from.  It just sounds so wicked awesome! 

So much music, so little time.

So much music, so little time.

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Isn't that a fact!

Tom said:

An interesting comparison of Western and Indian music suggests a different reason for the latter sounding "strange" to westerners:

"Indian classical music has 7 basic notes (Sa Re Ga Ma Pa Dha Ni), with five interspersed half-notes, resulting in a 12-note scale. Unlike the 12-note scale in Western music, the base frequency of the scale is not fixed, and inter-tonal gaps may also vary."

I find this mind boggling  ???

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If you really want mind boggling then check out tuning a sitar. The frets are moveable.

http://www.joerizzo.com/sitar/

Aye, I've read about tuning a sitar before.

The frets are moveable.

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Yes, they'd have to be movable to achieve the explanation of their scale I posted

Reading that article brings home the need to re-tune every time you change key. That would make it tough to change key on the fly.

"Let's play this in the key of x instead".

"OK, give me 20 minutes to re-tune; The audience will have to wait. Did you hand out the ear plugs?"

Tom said:

Reading that article brings home the need to re-tune every time you change key. That would make it tough to change key on the fly.

"Let's play this in the key of x instead".

"OK, give me 20 minutes to re-tune; The audience will have to wait. Did you hand out the ear plugs?"

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You obviously missed the Concert for Bangla Desh. Ravi and friends finished tuning up and got a large round of applause. Ravi said "Thank you. If you appreciate the tuning so much I hope you will enjoy the playing more."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9azolYtJhI

I heard of the concert, but didn't watch.

Looking at different video of Ravi playing the sitar, he appears to be playing "slack key" and bending the notes. I'm intrigued enough to want to try, but the sitar is one instrument I won't be buying. In any event, I can't assume the recommended playing position; Cross legged with the sound box against the sole of one foot.

My guitar lessons start in 2 weeks; That should keep me busy practicing, in between practicing for our next uke season.

How about a duet for Sitar and Bagpipes?