True four season travel trailers

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https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/28614134.cfm
 
Greeting fellow winter campers.  the Mrs. and I have been lurking here for a long time, and I know feel the urge to post on this topic.  We are Ski Patrollers in the North East US, and we live several hundred miles from our home mountain.

Se we decided to find a campground and try winter camping.  We found a place near the mountain we ski at that for the first time decided to give a go at staying open year round.  They left about 24 sites open, offered electric only, no water or sewer, and they had bath houses with hot water, as well as a camp store that served a great hot breakfast for a reasonable price.    Now on to our story.

2013 ft TT Gulfstream Conquest.  Not exactly suited for -11 degrees in February, but it is what we had.

We did a ton of insulation with foil around the slide out, and the electric cable and any other spot we thought air would get in....  We rented a 100 gallon propane tank to run the heater.. and we duct taped and sealed the area around the slide where we thought water/snow/ice could accumulate, and thaw and seep in, and we were ready to try it. 

Parked up there in late November on opening day, and left the trailer in place until late March ...  We went up multiple times to get our days in and camped in all kinds of weather.  30" of snow, sleet, freezing rain, negative 11 degrees. 

We would arrive at the camper, fire off the propane heater, get the interior to about 65 degrees, and then turn off the propane and use the electric space heater to maintain the temp.  We had 3 electric space heaters one the traditional kind stand up with oil in it, the other 2 small plug in models.  One was just a plug with a box that we plugged into the wall above our bed, the other was a small floor model we used to heat the bathroom.

We had ZERO problems other than a little bit of seepage from melting snow into slide track, which we think we trouble shot and fixed.  We also insulated the bathroom, jamming foil insulation above and below the door and taping it in place. 

We camped with a 1 year old and we were always cozy and warm.  During the 40+ inches of blizzard that blew through we did lose power and had to go with propane back up heater. 

We are continuing to look for a "true four season, because winterizing was a bit of a pain, took several hours to plug and seal slide. we also left the slide out all winter long, this may decrease the lifespan of the slide, but we were concerned about it freezing in place and not being able to open it, hence the reason. 

I'd like to hear from others about their experiences, how they insulated travel trailers, and what worked well for them in some sub zero camping weather... 

Thanks


 
Stina said:
Hi; I live in Winnipeg Manitoba, from my experience, the best true four season travel trailers out there are the "roughneck" trailers built in Alberta, Canada.  We bought our 2007 30ft NT30b unit for under $20,000.  They're designed to operate without issue from -40F to well over +100F (-40C to +40C).  I don't believe they come with slide outs but have 6" thick roofs, 6" vented floors, and 3" walls with double glazing.  They have 2-40K btu furnaces, AC with a heat strip, oversized shower, 9 or 10 cu ft fridge, central vac, TV etc... they are also wired as an office, with, computer desk, phone, and satellite jacks.  The frames and axles are way oversized; ours is a 14" HSS frame and 2-8,000lb axles for a 30' unit, because they're always taken to remote places that other trailers just don't go, such as the oil patch in Alberta and BC, or northern Saskatchewan, or Manitoba.  The tanks are also oversized, and enclosed in an insulated area within the steel frame, with a 3/4" plywood bottom, that is spray foamed underneath to seal the tank cavity.  The tanks, are all heat traced, and some of the furnace heat is vented into the tank cavity and the gate valve area to aid in preventing the tanks from freezing.  The roughnecks are a heavier animal, you need a one ton to pull them because of the tongue weight, but you don't even know they're behind you, and they're basically bulletproof.  There is nothing light duty about these units. 

Hope the comments help, they are from experience. 

Thanks, Stina.
Very good info!
My class A is built in Manitoba and I love it.
I have tried to find info on the Roughneck but can't seem to find anything,could you maybe post a link?
 
Winter RV'ers,

I would like to add a little to this subject.  Something to avoid.  I often make assumptions and later regret.  I bought a 2018 Kodiak Cub 20 ft travel trailer I now regret. 

I searched widely for a travel trailer new or used using a list of requirements.  I found some that met all but one criteria.  Being easy to tow setup and take down was a requirement.  We make short trips or move frequently on long trips. An excellent view outside from the living space (dinette area in small trailers).  We are not able to walk far anymore.  Being useful in below freezing weather was the one I had trouble with.  Any that promised plumbing function in freezing weather cost three times what I could justify.  Walking through the snow in the middle of the night to a pit toilet is becoming a serious issue with us.

Then I found the specs for the Kodiak Cub.  The advertising promised a heated underbelly.  I drove 150 miles just to see it.  The underbelly was covered.  The view from inside was excellent. Three big windows surrounded the U-dinette. Toilet and shower were there and as a bonus, it was a dry bath.  It was heavy.  I would need a bigger tow vehicle.  It had square corners.  It would suck power to tow.

The lure of winter camping was too much.  I went home found a good used tow vehicle and bought them both.

The Keystone/Dutchman/Kodiak representative said (after I bought it and found the plumbing froze at 29 degrees F) the Cub was not intended to be a 4 season trailer.  It was intended to extend the season.  The plumbing should not be used in temperatures below 32 degrees F.  Of course none of this was explained in the advertising brochure or in the User Manual or anywhere on their website.  What does extending the season mean?  What does having a heated underbelly mean?  How much does a heated underbelly extend the season if it can't handle 29 degrees F?  Obviously I had assumed too much.

In fact, the underbelly is not heated.  It is covered with a corrugated plastic sheet.  There is no insulation in the underbelly.  There is a 2" duct from the furnace to the floor, but no heat flows through the duct.  There is not the slightest airflow through the totally inadequate duct.

So these brands are all suspect because they are all part of the same company:
Keystone, Dutchman, and Kodiak.  I think there is another brand in the group, but I don't remember it.

Regards,
Paul Bristol
 
  If you are looking at travel trailers and not 5th wheels check out Excel (also recently out of business). I think (and may be wrong), that their TT’s were warranted to -20 F (I know their 5er’s were) The later year models had a lot of storage (basement similar to some 5er’s), much more than most TT’s. They were heavy units, but well made.

  If your looking at 5er’s, there are several that are good 4 season units. We wouldn’t hesitate to use our old (2004 model) Teton in temps -20 F and below. We lived in our 1990 model for two Wyoming winters, seeing a few -30 F and a little cooler, and never froze a water line. But, as Gary said....they’ve been out of business since around 2007.
 
vmyoung61 said:
Try Sundance by Heartland.

I wouldn't stay in ours in freezing weather. Not enough insulation and the furnace isn't powerful enough to push air into the living area......
 
So these brands are all suspect because they are all part of the same company:
Keystone, Dutchman, and Kodiak.  I think there is another brand in the group, but I don't remember it.

Actually, Keystone is part of Thor Industries, as is Dutchmen and several other major RV manufacturers (e.g. Jayco, KZ, Airstream, & Heartland).  Kodiak is a Dutchmen brand.
 
OldLittleFoot said:
Then I found the specs for the Kodiak Cub.  The advertising promised a heated underbelly.  I drove 150 miles just to see it.  The underbelly was covered.  The view from inside was excellent. Three big windows surrounded the U-dinette. Toilet and shower were there and as a bonus, it was a dry bath.  It was heavy.  I would need a bigger tow vehicle.  It had square corners.  It would suck power to tow.

The Keystone/Dutchman/Kodiak representative said (after I bought it and found the plumbing froze at 29 degrees F) the Cub was not intended to be a 4 season trailer.  It was intended to extend the season.  The plumbing should not be used in temperatures below 32 degrees F.  Of course none of this was explained in the advertising brochure or in the User Manual or anywhere on their website.  What does extending the season mean?  What does having a heated underbelly mean?  How much does a heated underbelly extend the season if it can't handle 29 degrees F?  Obviously I had assumed too much.

In fact, the underbelly is not heated.  It is covered with a corrugated plastic sheet.  There is no insulation in the underbelly.  There is a 2" duct from the furnace to the floor, but no heat flows through the duct.  There is not the slightest airflow through the totally inadequate duct.

Paul, My thinking of a heated underbelly is just enough warm air going into that space to keep things from freezing if temps got down to lets say 10 degrees. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find RV's which will not freeze up in colder temps. This is only my opinion.
You mention the 2" duct. That has to be your problem. What's the sense of a manufacturer going to the trouble of drilling a hole in the floor, run a 2" duct into that hole and not have any warm air come out of that duct. You need to get that fixed. 
 
"You mention the 2" duct. That has to be your problem. What's the sense of a manufacturer going to the trouble of drilling a hole in the floor, run a 2" duct into that hole and not have any warm air come out of that duct. You need to get that fixed.  "
My point exactly!  Not only that, but they drilled a 4" hole in the floor and cut a 4" hole in the furnace.  Then they installed a 2" duct.
To be fair, the trailer company and Suburban, the furnace company, are evaluating the issue.  Suburban has said the furnace has an optional 4" knock out for ducted heat.  Why the furnace does not blow air through the hole Kodiak cut at the knock out spot is strange.

However, I did further testing of the Kodiak design.  I attached a hair dryer to the 2" duct and blew warm air into it for several hours.  The temperature under the floor 8 feet away at the dry bath and fresh water tank location did not change. 

Looking through the holes into the underbelly as best I could, I could not see ANY insulation.  I could see the bare plastic underbelly cover.  With out at least minimal insulation one would need the entire output of the furnace to raise the temperature in the underbelly much.  There is no hope for a 2" duct to extend the camping season at all.  Even a 4" duct is not going to make a significant difference.
 
I've been caught in Arkansas through this polar blast.  Our temps have been in the high single/low double digits.  My coach has a heat duct into the basement that dumps somewhere in the vicinity of the wet bay(what a joke).
In addition to the heated water supply hose I added a couple of clamp lamps with 60watt bulbs.  One in the wet bay, and one in the compartment with the water pump.  Also added a $15 Walmart heater in the storage compartment where most of the water lines run.
I've also got the Stay-a-while Tee setup so I can run external propane bottles.  Only problem I have is I should have gotten 30lb bottles instead of 20lb.
 
OldLittleFoot said:
Winter RV'ers,

I bought a 2018 Kodiak Cub 20 ft travel trailer I now regret. 
?

The lure of winter camping was too much.  I went home found a good used tow vehicle and bought them both.
...

The Keystone/Dutchman/Kodiak representative said (after I bought it and found the plumbing froze at 29 degrees F) the Cub was not intended to be a 4 season trailer. 
...

Here is the resolution to the 2018 Kodiak Cub KD176RD18 4 season failure.
After carefully documenting the issue and all communications with Kodiak/Keystone/Dutchman, about two dozen lawyers failed to call me back.  Two who did refused to help.
The Wisconsin Department of Consumer Protection took two months to write a letter to Kodiak.  Kodiak wrote back that they would do nothing.  WDCP wrote me saying Kodiak would do nothing.
I contacted the Wisconsin State Journal SOS journalist Chris Rickert.  He call Sunny Island RV where I bought the trailer.  Within 24 hours, Sunny Island RV manager Jeff Tegner called me back and asked me to bring the trailer back.  They would make it right. 
It took more the $2000 and 4 weeks to seal, insulate, and install tank heaters.  Sunny Island RV covered most of the cost.  Kodiak paid $300 because the heat drop from the furnace was not cut through to floor to heat the belly.
On March 1 I tested the trailer in my driveway.  It worked.  The temperature outside dropped to 20 degrees F.  The temperature in the belly remained a constant 45 degrees.
Two weeks later we made our first winter trip in the trailer.  We camped in the best campsite at Wisconsin?s Wyalusing State Park for 5 days.  From the bluff campsite we watched the eagles soar below us.
Conclusion:  The pen is mightier than the law.  Don?t buy Kodiak, Keystone, or Dutchman.  They are lying, cheating, frauds.
 
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