RV community needs a revolution?

There are two common themes that I don't get. And it bothers me because I have genuinely enjoyed the give and take in these forums.

Apparently, 1) the mfg quality control across the spectrum is pretty bad and relies on after service fixes. 2) a lot of new buyers do a PDI, then, I guess because they want to get on the road, sign off and take their unit on the assumption that the dealer will remedy these issues within a reasonable time.

These units cost a lot of money, heh, probably more money then most rvers ever spent on a car, yet why not just stop accepting these units? Don't sign off until the items on the list are fixed? Defer your desires to get on the road. Keep your money and your leverage until the unit is acceptable. Or simple say keep the unit and go buy another? I know this is asking a lot of you as buyers, but...moaning about the new rv quality control issues is not doing it.

How else are you, as customers, going to force the industry to take notice?

Isn't it time for a quality control performance revolution?

RodgerS said:

These units cost a lot of money, heh, probably more money then most rvers ever spent on a car, yet why not just stop accepting these units? Don't sign off until the items on the list are fixed? Defer your desires to get on the road. Keep your money and your leverage until the unit is acceptable. Or simple say keep the unit and go buy another? I know this is asking a lot of you as buyers, but...bitchin and moaning about the new rv quality control issues is not doing it.

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That will never work. The vast majority of the problems don't show up until the RV has been driven down the road for a few hundred miles. Vibration finds the problems.

And then there's stuff like this....

We bought our Palomino in May of 2012.  The furnace had a shorted harness that kept popping fuses....which, of course we didn't discover until we used the furnace....which was October of 2012.  Should we have tried it during the walk through?  Probably....it wasn't a "in a hurry to get on the road" thing as much as a "too much info at one time" thing.....and we're old hands at this.

The dealer fixed it under warranty, and the unit has been very good since.  And really, like the bird said, stuff will show up after the rig has gone down the road a few miles and been exposed to earthquake like conditions for a while.

Could they be better quality?  Of course....but let's face it, most RV's are built to a price, not a quality standard.  Build it to a quality standard, and you've eliminated half your customer base because the damn thing costs so much now.

You pays your money and you takes your choices....

Add in that RVs are largely hand built, unlike cars, and low volume to boot (making margins have to be high). Granted QC should be better, but as Frizlefrak says, that would cost more.

You could make the same argument about buying a new house. Those too are hand made and often take a year to debug. And hidden defects may show up months or even years later.

But the basic problem with your suggestion is that they are all alike in "quality". You can choose to not buy an RV, or not, but most buyers would rather have something than nothing.

Gary RV Roamer said:

You could make the same argument about buying a new house. Those too are hand made and often take a year to debug. And hidden defects may show up months or even years later.

But the basic problem with your suggestion is that they are all alike in "quality". You can choose to not buy an RV, or not, but most buyers would rather have something than nothing.

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Just to be clear, although I enjoy camping, we both do, as a matter of fact, before I plunked down $$ 6 Figures for a NEW RV, which is what many of them cost new, i'd keep my sticks and bricks house, which I've owned for the last 17 years, is paid for, and a great "home base", I'd give up camping, and stay in hotels whenever I vacation.  I did it before my RVing days, do it occasionally now, and can do it again.

I can buy a lot of hotel rooms for $100,000+, which BTW is more than I paid for my first house in a Boston Suburb in the 70's (without the headaches of mechanical breakdowns, leaky roofs, the RV rattling apart as you travel from place to place at 7mpg).  That house has appreciated in price, as has every house I've ever owned.  Try to find a 70's vintage RV that has appreciated in price, or is even still on the road, being lived in full time!

Rebelsun,

there is also another idea that is pretty good. Take Thailand where a couple can live on a sandy beach for $1,650 a month including rent?swap that for a beach in Ecuador and it?s $1,800. Up the budget to $2,200 and you can kick back in old-world Europe?Guatemala $1,500, Cambodia $1,250 to $1,500, Nicaragua $1,445. Panama, which is top of the list within that range.

Right, $150,000 divided by say $2,000 a month (ignoring such things as a round trip flight ticket) thats 75 months, say 3 months a year = well the math gets interesting.

So Sunbirding internationally is an idea. Also suggests a much smaller and nimble motorhome to travel to say Alaska, rent an apartment, and come back. Basically, luggage and temporary lodging while on the move.

So yes, Rving can take many forms.

Vacation homes were never a great draw to me as you had only one place to basically go on vacations. Like a ski lodge - beautiful, but with limits and yes a $ eater.

Anyway, one advantage of not buying an RV, quite yet, is being able to work the combinations and imagine other ways to do things.

Sure would like to visit the slot canyons in Arizona. Mix it up???

I actually believe that production motor home manufacturers such as Winnebago, Thor, etc. do a pretty good job considering what it is they manufacture and the end result, and the associated cost. I have purchased two motor homes now. My 2010 Fleetwood Bounder 33U was new when I purchased it, but had sat on the dealer's lot for over 900 days in the desert sun. The coach was a great unit, but had dozens and dozens of little issues that took me the better part of 9-months to get corrected, I paid 78.5k for a coach that listed for 134k, so I knew going in I would have some issues. My current coach, a 2014 Winnebago Aspect 30J has had its own issues, from improper sealant installation in the roof, to screws coming out of mysterious places.

Through it all I have never lost confidence in one thing. That when I am out in a campsite I am happy. When I am on the road I am exhilarated, I cannot get enough. Sadly my circumstances do not allow me more time on the road in a beautiful motor home, albeit slightly defective.

In reading all of the posts dealing with the finding, purchasing, and "consequences" of buying a defective motor home by the OP, I have determined that I am completely satisfied with my chosen recreational pursuit...in spite of the potential for problems some of which can cause anxiety, and can cost some money.

Nothing in this world is perfect and when you can purchase a recreational vehicle that looks as good as my Aspect, or Bounder for under 100k, and the enjoyment I/we get from these rolling houses, driving, parked in the driveway at home, and especially when parked in a campsite/RV site it is worth the headache of maintaining and fixing the issues that crop up.

I am going to buy another motor home in the future, and when I do I'll look for the floor plan I love knowing that I will have to deal with some QC issues, my solace will be when I am sitting in the driver's seat, or sitting under the awning sipping an iced tea.

I view RV's the same way I used to view my boat....
I enjoyed the heck out of it.  It was a "pleasure craft".
When the maintenance issues, and the anxiety of taking it out, and not knowing what was going to break this time, and whether I was going to be towed in by Sea Tow AGAIN, I decided my "pleasure craft" was no longer pleasurable any more, so I sold it.  And as we all know, the best two days of a boat owners life, is the day he buys it, and the day he sells it!

I went from boating to camping.....

.....BUT.....

I'm getting the same impression of RVing, by a lot of what I've read on this thread, and the various other threads on this and other forums, as well as what I've also experienced as an RV owner, that the best two days of an RV owners life, are the day he purchases these overpriced vehicles, that lack QC and apparently warranties that last beyond the initial walk through, after the vehicle is purchased, and driven off the lot, and the day he sells it, and continues to travel in a car, that gets 30 mpg, has great QC, and a 3 yr. manufacturers warranty, and then stays in hotels, where he doesn't have to worry about any of the maintenance issues that WILL crop up.

rebelsun said:

that the best two days of an RV owners life, are the day he purchases these overpriced vehicles, that lack QC, and the days he sells it, and continues to travel in a vehicle that gets 30 mpg, has great QC and a 3 yr. manufacturers warranty, and stays in hotels, which he doesn't have to worry about any of the maintenance issues that might crop up.

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What you say has a ring of truth, but the reality is...some folks take to bowling, softball, Boy Scouts, and some folks take to RVing. I have never found a cheap hobby. From building cars (high 5-digits to 6-digits easy), to camping (expenses never end, and the equipment is never ever forever), all of my hobbies have been expensive. From your perspective traveling and staying in a hotel is an option, not for me. My tastes in hotels is far too rich for my budget, but an RV is a good fit for my limited means. If I am going to stay in hotels in isn't going to be at a Motel 6 that's for sure and for certain.

If I am going to travel by car I might have a fine automobile (Cadillac CTS-V comes to mind) but I am not saving any money. So it's all in how you wish to live your life and spend your resources. I chose RVing with all of its nuances.

RodgerS said:

Rebelsun,

there is also another idea that is pretty good. Take Thailand where a couple can live on a sandy beach for $1,650 a month including rent?swap that for a beach in Ecuador and it?s $1,800. Up the budget to $2,200 and you can kick back in old-world Europe?Guatemala $1,500, Cambodia $1,250 to $1,500, Nicaragua $1,445. Panama, which is top of the list within that range.

Right, $150,000 divided by say $2,000 a month (ignoring such things as a round trip flight ticket) thats 75 months, say 3 months a year = well the math gets interesting.

So Sunbirding internationally is an idea. Also suggests a much smaller and nimble motorhome to travel to say Alaska, rent an apartment, and come back. Basically, luggage and temporary lodging while on the move.

So yes, Rving can take many forms.

Vacation homes were never a great draw to me as you had only one place to basically go on vacations. Like a ski lodge - beautiful, but with limits and yes a $ eater.

Anyway, one advantage of not buying an RV, quite yet, is being able to work the combinations and imagine other ways to do things.

Sure would like to visit the slot canyons in Arizona. Mix it up???

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There's another option, once you decide where you want to vacation, look on line for a furnished vacation rental home, either with or without a lease.  Long or short term, they're available everywhere.  When you want to move on, and you walk out the door, just pull it shut, and walk away.  No muss, no fuss.  Whatever happens to the property after that, isn't your problem.  If the pipes freeze, the roof leaks, the hot water heater, refrigerator, or A/C needs replacement, a hurricane or tornado comes through and blows it down, a wildfire burns it up, it's not your problem.  You don't have to bear the financial burden, or do the work yourself.  Then for your next vacation, just rent one where you want to go next.

I have enough work keeping my sticks and bricks house and land maintained.  I don't need the additional responsibility of maintaining a second vacation home, boat, or RV home.

Oscar Mike said:

What you say has a ring of truth, but the reality is...some folks take to bowling, softball, Boy Scouts, and some folks take to RVing. I have never found a cheap hobby. From building cars (high 5-digits to 6-digits easy), to camping (expenses never end, and the equipment is never ever forever), all of my hobbies have been expensive. From your perspective traveling and staying in a hotel is an option, not for me. My tastes in hotels is far too rich for my budget, but an RV is a good fit for my limited means. If I am going to stay in hotels in isn't going to be at a Motel 6 that's for sure and for certain.

If I am going to travel by car I might have a fine automobile (Cadillac CTS-V comes to mind) but I am not saving any money. So it's all in how you wish to live your life and spend your resources. I chose RVing with all of its nuances.

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If you're going to look at it as an all or nothing thing, then the RV is probably your best alternative.

But for those of us that can't afford a Provost, or don't want to have the additional cost or work required to maintain a substandard RV, built with a lack of QC, and can be happy driving a Honda instead of a Cadillac STS, or staying in a Hilton for $100 a night, rather than the Ritz for $500 a night, we might be better off maintaining our sticks and bricks house, which appreciates in value, rather than pouring money and work into a depreciating asset, like a Motorhome.

There once was a time in this country when products were made with pride,, Workman were proud to say I MADE THAT.

But due to the abuses of said workers by management, things like 16 hour days without over time,  And a long list of other things, workers banded together to form unions.  And won legal protections for those unions.. Then the unions grew in power to the point where it was hard to get a worker fired once he completed probation, even if he came to work drunk.. And in fact in some factories instead of a Cola machine (Coke or Pepsi) it was a BEER machine.... 

Then the pendulum started swinging the other way, Unions started to loose power so bosses once again asserted themselves,,, Crying about Losses and No money they cut worker wages and benefits (While giving middle managers a holiday bonus check that woudl have paid for my house, and my motor home, and my car, and my daughters tuition all in one year) .

Worker pride, followed worker wages (DOWN DOWN DOWN) and today

The Original poster described many industries here in the US.

John From Detroit said:

There once was a time in this country when products were made with pride,, Workman were proud to say I MADE THAT.

But due to the abuses of said workers by management, things like 16 hour days without over time,  And a long list of other things, workers banded together to form unions.  And won legal protections for those unions.. Then the unions grew in power to the point where it was hard to get a worker fired once he completed probation, even if he came to work drunk.. And in fact in some factories instead of a Cola machine (Coke or Pepsi) it was a BEER machine.... 

Then the pendulum started swinging the other way, Unions started to loose power so bosses once again asserted themselves,,, Crying about Losses and No money they cut worker wages and benefits (While giving middle managers a holiday bonus check that woudl have paid for my house, and my motor home, and my car, and my daughters tuition all in one year) .

Worker pride, followed worker wages (DOWN DOWN DOWN) and today

The Original poster described many industries here in the US.

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I don't agree with your analysis. Worker pride is not tied to wages for the most part, worker pride is tied to something far deeper than that..at least I hope it is. I remember as a young Carpenter Apprentice making slave wages, working puke jobs, enduring daily hazings and yet having a deep sense of pride in my work. When I made Journeyman Carpenter, and later Master Carpenter I worked union and non-union and I still maintained a high degree of professionalism. Even today as we own and operate a General Contracting firm, who is in stiff competition with those who do not have pride of workmanship instilled in them, and yet my sons (who run the company these days) also have a deep sense of pride in their work...it is because that is how they were raised. 

I know full fledged Journeyman Carpenters today, both union and non-union, who have no sense of ownership whatsoever which reflects in their poor work...an example is the Harmon Tower in Las Vegas that is being dismantled piece by piece today because of poor workmanship performed by the highest paid union construction workers.

No, worker pride is NOT a condition of remuneration but is something that you learn in you life...

End of rant. 

You're right that worker's pride is not really tied to their wages, but it is tied to how they are treated by their employer. When the employers are taking home 5 and 6 figure bonuses, while cutting health benefits, lowering the salary cap etc, and basically treating their employees as liability rather than an asset, its hard to have any semblance of pride in your work.

To the point that you often don't know what's wrong until you get out on the road,,,, that may be true for individuals with their new coach, but if the manufacturers kept a list of things they fixed on each coach and then compared it to all the other coaches, their lists would probably be very similar from one coach to the next. Maybe if they addressed those issues in the manufacturing, it would shorten the list of after delivery problems the customers have to deal with.


Caryl

cadee2c said:

To the point that you often don't know what's wrong until you get out on the road,,,, that may be true for individuals with their new coach, but if the manufacturers kept a list of things they fixed on each coach and then compared it to all the other coaches, their lists would probably be very similar from one coach to the next. Maybe if they addressed those issues in the manufacturing, it would shorten the list of after delivery problems the customers have to deal with.
Caryl

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I was told by a Service Manager that it is less expensive to fix "reported problems" than to implement strict quality control at the factory. How many do-it-yourself types just fix all those minor problems themselves?

John From Detroit said:

There once was a time in this country when products were made with pride,, Workman were proud to say I MADE THAT.

But due to the abuses of said workers by management, things like 16 hour days without over time,  And a long list of other things, workers banded together to form unions.  And won legal protections for those unions.. Then the unions grew in power to the point where it was hard to get a worker fired once he completed probation, even if he came to work drunk.. And in fact in some factories instead of a Cola machine (Coke or Pepsi) it was a BEER machine.... 

Then the pendulum started swinging the other way, Unions started to loose power so bosses once again asserted themselves,,, Crying about Losses and No money they cut worker wages and benefits (While giving middle managers a holiday bonus check that woudl have paid for my house, and my motor home, and my car, and my daughters tuition all in one year) .

Worker pride, followed worker wages (DOWN DOWN DOWN) and today

The Original poster described many industries here in the US.

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Yes, there once was a time when worker pride was prevalent, even when they worked 60 hour workweeks at straight time.  The unions changed all that. 

There also was a time when we led the world in manufacturing, and employers provided their employees with company housing, recreational venues, living wages, and benefits such as health and life insurance, and pensions.

Then came a time when employees became expendable, it was all about the bottom line, the execs pay, bonuses, and golden parachutes, and to hell with the workers.

And yes, I was around when my father and his WW2 generation worked 60 hrs. a wk. as Police and Firefighters.  Then in the 60's came unions, which was preceded by Civil Service, and conditions improved.
When I went on the job in the early 70's, it was like as you described, once a person was off probation, they had to murder someone, and be caught with the smoking gun in their hand, to be fired. 
And yes we had a soda machine in the station, with two rows of beer inside, as did the Fire Station.  But we also had vodka in the bottle on top of the water cooler!
Those were the days when the bus drivers, trolley and subway motormen, at the Transit Authority, worked a split shift, 4 hrs. during morning rush hr., and 4 hrs. during the afternoon rush.  Some of them were "on call" during the hrs. between am and pm rush hrs., and would go across the street from the car barn, to a bar, drink and play cards, until a runner was sent over, or a phone call was made to the bar, so send over the drivers and motormen, because they were needed to run routes.
Can you imagine that happening today?  A drunk bus driver, or drunk motorman operating a multi-ton bus or train, full of passengers, as a matter of routine business.

But we did have fun back then.  The job isn't fun anymore.  Too full of rules and regulations, and the  camaraderie is gone.

Oscar Mike,
Enjoyed your post about your RV choices. I think that under 100k is a sweet spot for quite a variety of people, particularly if you are not a full-timer. I looked over the floor plan of your current rig and the specs, and could see that as a good choice for how you indicate you use it. The real bottom line, is, as you say, how you feel about your out there experiences.

Oscar Mike said:

I was told by a Service Manager that it is less expensive to fix "reported problems" than to implement strict quality control at the factory. How many do-it-yourself types just fix all those minor problems themselves?

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How long would you have stayed in business, if you built houses, or renovated kitchens, bathrooms, or entire gut jobs on old tired homes, with the lack of fit and finish, and the lack of overall Quality Control, that RV builders exhibit in their finished product?

Rebelsun

There is an element to all this that is very personal. My father, despite the frustrations of ownership, when finally parked at the campground of his choice, where he stayed for three months at a time, had a fishing stream 15 seconds away from his camper door and the satisfaction of ownership that seemed quite enough for him and the problems. Therein lies something that no amount of logic or quality control can disrupt.