1/2 ton 5th Wheel Towing Delima - Old Topic-New Numbers

I'm new to the site and very much appreciate the voluminous discussion that has been posted in the past. However, like others I am wrestling with the dilemma of the torque, towing and payload capacities of the new 1/2 ton pick-ups. Coupled with a trend towards light 5th wheelers I am perplexed as to why I wouldn't pair a Ford F150 Eco-Boost with one of the 5th wheels noted on the attached spreadsheets. For the record I have owned Ford, Dodge and Chevy Trucks and respect the biases in favor of the Cummins I6 Diesel over the lighter weight aluminum components. I also appreciate the new lighter weight aluminum F150 bodies and would like to note that my 2005 Chevy Tahoe has sported aluminum hood and trunk for a decade now. Nothing new there and about time manuf. adopted aluminum for all body parts IOP. Hopefully this discussion will escalate beyond brand favoritism and focus on the numbers and real world conditions. I repeat I am a newbie to the 5th wheeler scene having owned only smaller travel trailers. Our hope and dream is to travel the four corners of  our beautiful country with a comfortable 5th wheeler (26-27 ft) towed by a truck that I can also use as a primary vehicle.

The Summary spreadsheet attached calculates the % of of the manufacturer's specified load ratings for 5 different Tow Vehicles with various 5th Wheels and TT. I have included the referenced numbers for anyone that may be interested. I would love it if someone would shoot holes in my calculations. I was trying to gauge what the max I could load and tow, safely with at least a 10-15% margin in capacity. I have assumed that the 5th Wheel  tankage would only be filled to 50% of its max. As I see it the only vehicle capable of pulling the 5th wheelers listed is the Ford F150 Super Crew with the HD Payload and Towing Package...UNLESS of course I went to a Ram 3500 (or Ford Super Duty models). Somewhat impractical for my daily use. Is the 10-15% too narrow a margin? I welcome any and all comments.  Thanks for all guidance.

99% of the fifth wheels on the market just dont pen out for any of the 1500 types of trucks.  Yes, they have better GVWR numbers, but they also weight considerably more so the bottom line is anout the same.  Couple that with soft ride, semi floating rear end, passanger car tires and there is just too many things against them.  Not to mention no resale value.
It still all boils down to one simple thing.............GET THE RIGHT TOOL FOR THE JOB!

To get a 5er light enough to be hauled by a half ton truck you sacrifice durability. The weight has to come from somewhere and that usually means structure since you will still want comfortable furnishings. By the time you factor in fuel, passengers and such you will have a pretty limited cargo weight remaining and since the pin weight should be roughly 20% of the total trailer weight there will not be many that will be light enough. Not to mention ability to pull mountain passes. I would purchase the trailer you want and then purchase a truck capable of hauling it without going close to max.

I'll start by saying it's good to see someone who does their homework.  I like those spreadsheets.

I lean toward the 3/4 ton if for no other reason than I wouldn't expect a very big difference in mileage while towing, since most of the hit there is wind resistance and not weight.  Yes, you'll get better mileage when not towing, but if you're going to the four corners of the country, most of your fuel consumption will be while towing.  We use our 1-ton as a primary vehicle when we travel and it hasn't been a problem.  Assuming the 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton are the same length, I'm not thinking there would be a big difference in use as a primary vehicle.  (If you're thinking of getting a shorter 1/2 ton, be wary of the tail wagging the dog.  A longer wheelbase will give you a more stable tow configuration)

Your comment about the tankage assumption being 50% of capacity suggests to me you may not be using trailer GVWR for your calculations.  If you didn't, I encourage you to try that and find what it does to the results.  The last thing you want is to buy a truck and trailer and find that you can't put everything in the trailer you want simply because of the truck.

Nice organized start on this.

Really appreciate the thoughtful responses...

The 27ft 5th wheelers we're considering (i.e. Grand Design, Jayco, Cougar, Heartland) compute to be 14,000-15,000 lbs GCWR (assumes: tanks 50% full (600-700 lbs)+ 1,000 lbs gear + passengers (435 lbs) + trailer Dry Weight + truck Base Curb Weight = 8,700 - 9,700 lbs). Assuming 20% tongue weight (approx. 2,000 lbs) it all adds up to 90% of the F150 max capacity (11,000 lbs max towing, 2,650 lbs max payload for the super crew cab long WB with HD Towing & Payload package) ... so I should be ok I guess if I don't plan on racing up the mountain passes. Mileage is likely to be worse than the diesels. None of the other trucks (Ram 2500 Diesel) are matching this capacity unless I am missing something.

I'd probably drain the tanks the days we plan to cross the passes to reduce weight.

The Achilles Heel of most half tons when towing a 5W is the payload rather than the GCWR. If you can configure one with a 2650 lb payload rating, you can tow a decent size 5W, say 8500 lbs or so and still carry the usual passengers and gear.

Small displacement engines have to use RPMs to make up for the relatively low torque (Horsepower is Torque x RPMS/5252).  That ECO V6 is going to have to spend a lot of time at higher RPMs to generate the necessary HP, but it's designed for that. Just don't be surprised, and of course the mpg drops dramatically when the engine is working hard. If you don't tow often, it's a reasonable trade-off, but if you tow a lot the larger engines may actually be cheaper to operate.

The normal F150 suspension is on the soft side and maybe a bit wishy-washy for heavier trailers, but it seems likely the Heavy Duty option puts it more on a par with the F250. It will probably work out OK.

I recently saw a F150 hooked up to any unloaded 7500lb trailer.  It was aiming for the sky.  I'm not sure how they figure that a f150 could handle that big a trailer, but I'd do a lot of research before I'd commit to such a thing.  Most will tell you that for a large trailer, you'll need 3/4 ton.  The manufacturers tend to overrate their trucks towing capacity, so beware. 

I also would not trust that Ecoboost engine.  The engine, just the way it runs, in normal operations destroys the valves.  From what I've read, you'll have to periodically take the engine in to be serviced, and its not cheap.  IMHO, I'd avoid the Ecoboost till they proved it's reliability over years of service.

From someone who towed a very small 5th wheel with a Ford F-150 with the small 4.6 V-8 for three years including a trip to Alaska and back, I can tell you it is a strain and mileage will suffer. I recently upgraded to a F-250 with the V-10 and the difference is amazing - hardly know it is back there...mileage went from 6-8 on the F-150 to 10-12 on the F-250....

Plus bigger brakes, longer bed in the truck and a more comfortable ride and the safety factor of a larger truck that is not under powered and stops way better!

I am shopping for a larger 5er and looking hard at several of the 1/2 towables even though I will be towing with a 3/4 ton!

Good Luck in your search, but my vote would be for a bigger truck.

Jim

I assume your picked 1/2 ton trucks for your use are new models only (1-2-3 years) ??
As we have several '00s era GM /Dodge 1500 trucks out here with more payload carrying ability than any F150 from Ford.

I say buy the right truck for the job. 3/4 ton or larger. Highly suggest diesel for heavy 5th wheels.

ok...so if I don't want to be pushing a turbo engine to its max most of the time towing then I'll need a 3/4 tn. My question now is: If the loads fall well within the towing and GCVW capacities for the 3/4 tn truck I select but exceed the payload capacity (such as in the examples I've shown for the Ram 2500) what's the best solution? Can I increase the payload capacity with air bags or is there a better method? Am I legal to modify the payload capacity to handle it provided I stay within the manufacturer's GCVW? Is there an issue with axle weights if I do this?

I just traded my 2011 F150 SuperCrew Eco with the max tow package for a SuperDuty.  I suggest you check out the truck at the dealer, open the driver's door and look at the payload on the sticker.  The manufacturer's sites will list the payload based on little or no options but when the truck is built the true payload is posted on the sticker.  I have found it's always less than the website.

The Eco will turn the highest torque and HP at about 2500 rpm (I personally measured this with an analyzer).  It has all the power you need to tow a FW but the payload will be near or at max.  I got 9 mpg towing my 9000 TT (DOT weighed) and 19 mpg empty on the highway.  On trade, the motor had over 50,000 miles and was trouble-free during my ownership.  I had my mechanic check for unusual wear on the valves before trading and he found nothing wrong in the motor.

Great truck, but under rated for what they tell you on their websites for towing!!

long ride said:

ok...so if I don't want to be pushing a turbo engine to its max most of the time towing then I'll need a 3/4 tn. My question now is: If the loads fall well within the towing and GCVW capacities for the 3/4 tn truck I select but exceed the payload capacity (such as in the examples I've shown for the Ram 2500) what's the best solution? Can I increase the payload capacity with air bags or is there a better method? Am I legal to modify the payload capacity to handle it provided I stay within the manufacturer's GCVW? Is there an issue with axle weights if I do this?

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One option to consider to increase the payload capacity would be to upgrade to a 3500.  Speaking strictly off the top of my balding head, I would think the cost difference would be negligible.  I'm not sure about the new Dodge trucks, but on my 2003, the only difference between the 2500 and the 3500 was the extra rear springs to increase payload capacity.  So, instead of adding options (such as airbags) to a 2500, get one ready to go from the factory in the form of a 3500.

I will admit that I am biased, since I have a Dodge Ram 3500 with the Cummins....  it's a hard working tough pickup truck.

Christopher

Is there anybody else out there towing a 26-27 ft 5th wheel with a 1/2 tn truck set-up legally with the HD towing and payload package? If so how's it working for ya?

I think some of the responses are missing the fact that long ride is talking about an F150 with the Heavy Duty Tow/Payload package. That makes a considerable difference in the basic capability - it's not just a trailer hitch and a few band aids on the suspension. However, I don't have any experience wit it to know just how much it really improves things. The report from Close to Retirement seems to be good input, though, and pretty much what I would have expected from a truck equipped like that.

Can I increase the payload capacity with air bags or is there a better method? Am I legal to modify the payload capacity to handle it provided I stay within the manufacturer's GCVW? Is there an issue with axle weights if I do this?

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The answers are Maybe, Yes and Yes.  You can possibly increase payload with suspensions mods or add-ons, but it is very dependent on axle and tire capacities. 5W towing places nearly all its load right over the rear axle, so the axle & tires have to be capable of the full load. Usually they are not on trucks that are lower rated - it's one of the major component cost factors in the truck. Brakes, for example, are constrained by the size of the axle hubs and are usually spec'ed to match the axle weight rating. Tire load raings too.

Most 3/4 tons have a greater payload and GVWR than most half tons, but specific truck component configurations will overlap, possible a lot. Whatever model and size you choose, it is necessary to consider all the configuration options and not just "half ton" vs "3/4 ton".

I am pulling a Jayco eagle ht 27.5 RLTS with a Silverado 1500 5.3 v8 3.42 rear gcwr 14,500 towing gcwr of truck 15,000 get 10 to12 mpg

In your spread sheet analysis you were using trailer dry weights and published curb weights of the trucks. Both of those are pipe dream numbers. You need to use trailer gross weight rating since that includes all the accessories and options as well as the stuff you carry in the trailer. Dry weight does not include many items such as air conditioner and appliances and some do not even include certain furnishings so dry weight can be several hundred pounds lighter than the true empty trailer weight. Same is true for published curb weights of trucks. It will not include certain options and equipment and is often a couple hundred pounds lighter than the actual empty truck.

Using trailer gross weight allows you to carry all the gear you need without worrying if you are overloading. Imagine telling the wife she cannot take her favorite chaise lounge and wading pool for soaking her feet because you are too heavy for the truck. Also, trailers get heavier with age because we find more stuff we might want to use and seldom remove them once we have them stowed. and then there is 2 years from now when you decide to get just a bit bigger trailer. Much cheaper to buy the bigger truck now than be pushing the limit from the very start. These are lessons many of us have learned the hard, expensive way and hope you can avoid them. Since a TT has a tongue weight of 13% verses a 5er at 20% you may want to think about going that direction if you are set on a 1/2 ton truck.

long ride said:

Is there anybody else out there towing a 26-27 ft 5th wheel with a 1/2 tn truck set-up legally with the HD towing and payload package? If so how's it working for ya?

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I am....it works well ....I am sure I am not overweight. Trailer weighs about 5500lbs....Its an older truck and trailer, gets 10+ mpg usually.

There is one thing here that isn't mentioned among the posters yet.  The question is, where do you plan to travel?  If you plan to spend time in the Rockies or Sierras, you've got some steep grades going up and down.  Brakes can wear fast on a truck with a heavy load.  A 3/4 ton is going to have bigger brakes to handle the extra load.  Personally it scares the hell out of me thinking of losing brakes in the mountains with my family aboard.  If you buy it right, the 3/4 isn't going to cost a lot more than the 1/2 ton.  Cut down on bells and whistles if price is a problem.  The dealerships load them up with a lot of crap. 

Interesting Article from Trailer Life. It doesn't address the durability issue though. The second link does but seems to be a promotional by Ford and the mpg's when towing are a mystery. Promising though.

http://www.trailerlife.com/trailer-how-to/trailer-towing-tips/half-ton-towing-fact-or-fiction/

http://www.full-race.com/articles/what-is-ecoboost.html