Heat Pump, Furnace, Cold weather - Hows it Works

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RGrimm

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 30, 2010
Posts
121
Location
Yulee, FL
(Ref - 2006 Journey with basement AC/Heat Pump)

We are in Brunswick, GA with our local (Jacksonville, FL) Winnebago Chapter for a weekend get together.

It is supposed to drop to 28 tonight and even colder Friday morning.  So my question -

If I leave the heat system in Electric Heat (Heat Pump) will the system automatically switch over to the Furnace once the outside temp drops to a certain temp? If so, does anyone know at what temp that switch over takes place?

If it does automatically switch over Heat Pump to Furnace, will it automatically switch back to the heat pump tomorrow once the outside temp raises?

This will be my first time dealing with this type of cold situation.

Thanks,

Russ
 
Russ - if you leave it in electric heat (heat pump mode), the thermostat will call for the propane furnace if the room temperature drops five degrees below set temperature.  If you can stand your coach getting five degrees cooler, leave it in electric heat.  No need to touch the thermostat - it will switch back and forth as needed.
 
John - I was hoping that was how it worked. I was afraid that perhaps if it switched to Furnace (because it fell 5 degrees behind the set temp) that it may lock-out the heat pump until I actually shut the thermostat off and then back on to reset it.

Thanks,
Russ
 
Is there an outside temperature that when it drops to it that system automatically switched to the Furnace? I know my home Heat Pumps would always run no matter the outside temps, but if it couldn't 'keep up' with maintaining the set temp that the backup heat work come on (heat strips at home). But I thought on the 5th wheel I had that once the outside temps dropped below like 38, the HP disabled and the furnace became the primary heat until the outside temp went back up and above 38.

Russ
 
The heat pump probably has an anti-freeze-up sensor that will shut down the compressor if it gets too extreme, but I doubt if that will also cause the furnace to kick in (until that 5 degree threshold kicks in). Do your self a favor and switch the thermostat over to furnace and turn off the heat pump somewhere around 38 degrees (outside temperature). At that point, or a bit lower, it will simply run continuously and produce little or no heat while you get colder and colder. It just wastes energy, makes noise and wears the compressor out.
 
Gary is right. Some where around 38-40 degrees I will switch mine over to the furnace.
 
RGrimm said:
Is there an outside temperature that when it drops to it that system automatically switched to the Furnace? ..
No, there is no "set" temperature where the heat pump is locked out - it all depends on the humidity - mine has frozen up at 40 degrees and sometimes will operate down to 32 degrees.  There are two freeze "switches" that interface with the smart thermostat that drive an algorithm about whether to switch to the furnace or return to the heat pump.  I try to minimize the furnace use because it will use an amazing amount of propane if you run it for a few days.
 
This is just an update on my recent trip to Brunswick, GA and how my heating systems functioned during the two coldest days/nights.
We had two days where the daytime high only reached 43 and two nights when the outside temps got down to 27 degrees at daybreak. While mild temps in comparsion to many places across the USA I know, but these are not typical temps for the southeast (Georgia/Florida line).

How my Heat Pump worked:

The first nite I knew it was going below freezing, I went to bed with the heat set for Electric Heat (Heat Pump) and had a 1500 watt Heater running in the LR/Kitchen area. It seemed that once the outside temps reached about 38 the Furnace began to work as the secondary heat and then eventually seemed to become the primary system.

The next day by late morning when the outsides temps reach 40, I thought the heat pump would start working again, but it didn't.  The Furnace seemed to be the primary heat source, firing up on calls for heat. I did some research and came up with this operation chart (see below) that seemed to explain what was going on - it appeared that there is a 'three strike and your out' rule on the Heat Pump. The 'strikes' is a secondary stage heat (Furnace) counter. When in electric heat (Heat Pump), each time the temperature differiential (set temp to actual room temp) reaches 5 degrees and the Furnace (2nd Stage heat) comes on the counter is incremented by one. The next time heat is called for the Heat Pump comes on and if it again can not keep up and the temperture differential reaches 5 degrees the Furnace (second stage heat) comes on again to satisfy the set temperture, the counter increments again. Once the second stage heat counter hits 3, the Heat Pump is locked out and the Furnace becomes the Primary Heat for an hour and 45 minutes. During the first night, with the heat set to electric heat (Heat Pump) and the outside temperatures below 38, my heat pump could not keep up and called for the Furnace. By morning this senerio (call for  second stage heat)  had happened at least 3 times and at that point, even though the outside temperture was up to 40 degrees the Heat Pump was in lock-out mode. My heat pump works well with outside temps at 40 or above.  To get out of the Lock Out, since the outsides temps were above 40, I killed the 12 volts to the coach (master switch on dash) for a few minutes to reset the AC/Heat Pump's logic board and the second stage counter.

On the second night while watching some TV the outside temp dropped below 38 by 10:00pm the Heat Pump came on. It never felt like the temperture in the coach was getting colder as the heat pump was running, but I realized that the HP had been running for quite a while and then all of a sudden the furnace fired up and with in minutes the set temperture was satisfied and both systems shut down. I do not believe the inside temperature dropped 5 degrees below the set temp to cause the Furnace to fire up. It seemed like the furnace came on becuase the Heat Pump had been running too long without satisfing the thermostat, like there was also a 'run-time' setting that would cause the second stage heat to come on. Like I said, once the Furnace came on it only ran a few minutes before both systems shut down, not long enough to bring the temperture up 5 degrees. Before going to bed on the  second night, knowing it was going to be even colder, I switch to the Furnace (LP) heat and ran the space heater.

The cold weather did cause some low voltage problems at the Campground because of the increased demand from the many people using  electric space heaters. My voltage had dropped to 110 volts on the two coldest mornings. In the afternoons when it warmed up the line voltage was 120 vac.
While colder than I liked for camping, we had a great weekend with our Local Winnebago Chapter - the Du-Bol Winnies.

Stay warm!
Safe Travels!

-Russ
 

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Thanks Russ for attaching the operational algorithm - I had forgotten about the three tries and then lock-out.  I like having my Ecobee smart thermostat since I basically configure the operational characteristics of the system.  How the stock C-M thermostat worked always drove me crazy.
 
John Canfield said:
Thanks Russ for attaching the operational algorithm - I had forgotten about the three tries and then lock-out.  I like having my Ecobee smart thermostat since I basically configure the operational characteristics of the system.  How the stock C-M thermostat worked always drove me crazy.

John,
I do not like the OEM thermostat either and I have looked through your Ecobee installation. I will eventually change mine out to get away from the mechanical switches and better control.

Because of the weather (cold) and the low line voltage it seemed to cause at the campground there were a number of people there who had some issues. Around dinner time on Thursday while my wife was cooking dinner (running the Microwave, a Foreman Grille and had a space heater on) and all of a sudden all my outlets (110 vac) when out. The EMS indicated I was on 50amp service and none of the AC circuit breakers or ground faults were tripped, I was baffled. It ended up being the 30 amp breaker on the dimension Inverter had popped. A am still a bit confused why the draw went thru the inverter while plugged in to 50 amp. My thoughts later was that the CG lost their power for an instant or a big dip in the voltage caused the coach to switch to inverter power and of course I had some heavy draw appliances plugged into some of the outlets at that point. Never had a problem with it after that.

-Russ
 
Even though you were on 50A power, those outlets are powered via the output of the inverter and the internal transfer switch passes the shore power through to them. But they're still limited by teh 30A breaker on the inverter, whether the power is from shore power or the inverter itself.
 
Ned said:
Even though you were on 50A power, those outlets are powered via the output of the inverter and the internal transfer switch passes the shore power through to them. But they're still limited by teh 30A breaker on the inverter, whether the power is from shore power or the inverter itself.

Ned,

Thanks for your information. I guess I am just not use to having basically all the 110v outlets running through the inverter. And my circumstance this trip were different. I generally don't need or use the 1500 watt space heater when traveling. So that plugged in and the Forman Grille certainly would put me over the 30 amp draw. So I learned a lot on this trip and that is a good thing!

-Russ
 
I added an outlet off of the block heater circuit to use for an electric space heater on the theory that both would not be needed at the same time.  This keeps that big load off of the inverter so you can run the microwave and the George Foreman at the same time.
 
Ned said:
I added an outlet off of the block heater circuit to use for an electric space heater on the theory that both would not be needed at the same time.  This keeps that big load off of the inverter so you can run the microwave and the George Foreman at the same time.

Good idea. Thanks.
 
If you have a W/D installed, the simplex receptacle does not go thru the Demented Inv/Chrgr.

In our coach 'Bago wired the engine block heater thru the Inv/Chrgr. Dumb! I have the fix drawn up but have not implemented same.
 
NoMoreAZ said:
If you have a W/D installed, the simplex receptacle does not go thru the Demented Inv/Chrgr.

In our coach 'Bago wired the engine block heater thru the Inv/Chrgr. Dumb! I have the fix drawn up but have not implemented same.

I looked at the wiring for my 34H and as yours, my Engine Heater receptacle is also wired through the inverter breaker panel. Not something I would have expected. I do have washer/dryer prep (no w/d) so I can use that receptacle in the future if I need to use a space heater.

Thanks
Russ
 
Gary RV Roamer said:
The heat pump probably has an anti-freeze-up sensor that will shut down the compressor if it gets too extreme, but I doubt if that will also cause the furnace to kick in (until that 5 degree threshold kicks in). Do your self a favor and switch the thermostat over to furnace and turn off the heat pump somewhere around 38 degrees (outside temperature). At that point, or a bit lower, it will simply run continuously and produce little or no heat while you get colder and colder. It just wastes energy, makes noise and wears the compressor out.

I learned this the hard way when we first got the rig, attempting to save my propane and let the heat pump do the job. The heat pump seems to be good for taking a slight chill out, but as Gary states anything below around 40 just ices up my fins and doesn't work very efficiently.
 

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