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Author Topic: View or Trend?  (Read 4051 times)

UpToSpeed

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View or Trend?
« on: August 12, 2015, 07:17:15 PM »
Hi, Iím new to the forum. My wife and I are planning to move from our truck camper to a B+ or Class-C RV in the near future. As much as I like the comfort and spaciousness of the View/Navion, I think we could be comfortable in a Trend/Viva. Both are still on the short list. We have narrowed down to Winnebago because we want the fiberglass roof that they use on these models.

I have some concerns about the Sprinter vs Promaster platforms. I like the power and torque of the Mercedes diesel, and I regard the Sprinter as a generally reliable vehicle. I am worried about availability of service and repairs while on the road since we often travel in remote areas and tend to avoid large metro areas where all the Mercedes dealers and diesel techs seem to be.

On the other hand, even though the Pentastar engine in the Promaster is a proven, and capable power plant, I wonder if the transmission will be reliable over time. It is a beefed up version of the Chryslerís mini van trans. Also, the whole platform is new and relatively untested in the USA. It seems that Ram truck dealers are plentiful across the country.

If we were to choose the View/Navion, we would buy used because they are a good value. If it is the Trend/Viva we would buy new because Winnebago is continuously updating wit each production run.

I would be interested in knowing what others who have experienced these chassis have to say. Iíd also like to know about experiences with the house portion of the Trend/Viva. Thanks.
Gary and Anna
2013 Phoenix PULSE SC Truck Camper
2012 Ford F250 Lariat

John Canfield

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Re: View or Trend?
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2015, 07:49:16 AM »
The Sprinter chassis is everywhere and well proven, can't say the same about the Promaster.  We have a fairly new VW Passat and live 50 miles away from the closest dealer, it's not convenient when we need service but the advantages of the Passat easily overcome the hassle of the drive.  We only let two service shops touch our Freightliner chassis, they are 1,000 miles away in different directions, so my point is don't let proximity of service dealers necessarily dictate what you purchase.
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2006 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited
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UpToSpeed

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Re: View or Trend?
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2015, 08:11:51 AM »
John, I agree with you as far as local (near home) services are concerned. We also own a diesel VW (Jetta Sportwagen) and have to drive an hour to get service, and I drive nearly that long for the truck and our other car. I can deal with this because I'm at home and always have something else to drive. On the road in an RV (we won't be towing a car) I can envision being stranded hundreds of miles from a qualified Mercedes tech. I assume by the lack of responses that this hasn't been a problem for members of this forum.
Gary and Anna
2013 Phoenix PULSE SC Truck Camper
2012 Ford F250 Lariat

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: View or Trend?
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2015, 08:20:16 AM »
I don't think the chances of being stranded due to a major chassis problem are all that great, so probably would not let it stand in my way if that was my preferred coach. And even if you are stranded, you still have your "house" to live in!  Even for a severe problem, chances are somebody local could get you going well enough to get to a Mercedes shop.  There are independent "foreign car specialist" shops too, but chassis warranty may be a sticking point on a new coach.

The larger problem may be that once they take your vehicle for repair, they probably aren't going to let you use it while at the shop. RV dealers often do, but not automobile dealers.
Gary
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Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

John Canfield

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Re: View or Trend?
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2015, 08:45:43 AM »
..I can envision being stranded hundreds of miles from a qualified Mercedes tech. ..
That is certainly a possibility but I think the odds of having a catastrophic failure that would strand you are very low.  We have Coachnet road service and they will have us towed to the nearest qualified service facility which could be a long way away.  Even if you are in for service while on the road, you should be able to sleep in the rig if they have to keep you overnight.  Only one time in ten years did we have to get a motel room and that was because we were having tile added to the salon (the tile is now gone and replaced with engineered wood.)

In any case, don't overthink this and buy the rig you really want.
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2006 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited
Our Horizon projects
Our weather

UpToSpeed

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Re: View or Trend?
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2015, 09:38:52 AM »
Gary, If we buy a View, it would be used so warranty wouldn't be an issue. John, You're probably correct about over thinking the issue. I'm so used to traveling with our camper on the F250, and everywhere we go there is a Ford dealer. When we need an oil change or tire rotation, I just go to dealerrater.com and find the one with best reviews. I keep all my equipment well maintained and never really have problems so I guess I should expect the same from a Sprinter. Thanks for the hand holding, I feel better now.
Gary and Anna
2013 Phoenix PULSE SC Truck Camper
2012 Ford F250 Lariat

Skiberry

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Re: View or Trend?
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2015, 12:42:59 PM »
Gary and Anna:
I'm probably weighing in late on this. I don't visit here often enough.
Last year, we traded in our 92 Ford F250 and Bigfoot camper with 270,000 miles on it for a pre-owned '14 Navion IQ with 6,400 miles. It now has a little over 18,000 miles and still purrs like a kitten.
We looked at the Trend/Viva and liked the idea of a FWD, but in the end, went with the bigger and I believe stronger Sprinter chassis. I am certain you wouldn't be disappointed with the View/Navion.
The only difference I've noticed from the camper vs. Navion is that I'm reluctant to take the Navion to some of the places we visited in the camper. Don't want to scratch up all that shiny new paint. Wouldn't it be great if the 2016 View/Navions came with a 4wd option?

Mfreyder

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Re: View or Trend?
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2015, 10:38:17 AM »
I own a 2014 Trend 23B.  Not sure what your preferences are on the Trend floor plan, but if I had it to do over again I would choose the 23L.  My wife liked the 23B for the galley, and as we discussed the sleeping options we decided that if the sofa was too hard I would sleep in the loft bed, and she on the dinette bed.  Well the sofa is too hard, and that goes for making a king bed as well.  So she added a cushion to the dinette cushions and I tied to sleep in the loft.

The loft bed has been broken which is a problem across Trend owners, not just mine.  Many have had no issues, many have nothing but issues.  2014 and 2015 L and B models have a loft bed that is poorly designed.  The 2016 got an entirely new designed loft bed, but it still has some design flaws.

Everyone with the Promaster chassis loves it, I have not heard one bad comment, and that carries across the Dynamax as well as the WGO owners.  I have 13K miles on mine and no issues except squealing brakes intermittently.  There is a bulletin out on the brakes that will correct the squeal.  TPMS needed new software as well, but no mechanical engine issues at all.

The Sprinter Mercedes Benz chassis for the View and Navion owners is a nightmare.  Check out the YahooGroups for View Navion info.  One Sprinter owner describes $100 oil changes, $100 fuel filter, and other have had front end problems with only 65K miles, like $2500 front end problems.  EGR problems that put the engine in limp home mode.  Others talk about $4500 drive train repairs from the xmsn rearward with less than 100K miles.  All this drove me away from the Sprinter as an option.

I'm of the mind set that I will have to take my Trend to the mother ship in Forest City to get the new 2016 bed correctly installed, my dealer installed it but not in the correct place on the wall.  We will either gut everything foward of the galley and make a custom floor plan or sell it after the bed is corrected.  Looking at the Thor Axis with twin beds, but I hated my 2007 E450 chassis, so I'll have to eat crow if I go back to a Ford chassis. 

Maybe I'll tow the Axis with my Ram Promaster!!! just kidding...

Mike
« Last Edit: September 19, 2015, 10:40:39 AM by Mfreyder »

John Canfield

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Re: View or Trend?
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2015, 12:32:56 PM »
..The loft bed has been broken which is a problem across Trend owners, not just mine.  Many have had no issues, many have nothing but issues.  2014 and 2015 L and B models have a loft bed that is poorly designed.  The 2016 got an entirely new designed loft bed, but it still has some design flaws.
Yikes!  Looks like Winnie designers stumbled on the loft bed.  What were the problems with the original design and then the re-design, I'm very curious.

Quote
The Sprinter Mercedes Benz chassis for the View and Navion owners is a nightmare.  Check out the YahooGroups for View Navion info.  One Sprinter owner describes $100 oil changes, $100 fuel filter, and other have had front end problems with only 65K miles, like $2500 front end problems.  EGR problems that put the engine in limp home mode.  Others talk about $4500 drive train repairs from the xmsn rearward with less than 100K miles.
I remember a routine service on our Mercedes E320 wagon would run about $300-400  :o, an oil change on my Ford F-250 diesel truck is about $125 at a quickie lube place - it takes 14 quarts of oil and the oil filter is about 2/3rds the size of a liter coke bottle.

If you want to talk about an expensive repair, two years ago we were using oil in our Cummins ISL (400HP/1200 ft. lbs) and took it to our favorite Freightliner dealer and he checked the crankcase pressure and it was way over spec.  Long story shortened, the head had to be pulled and rebuilt (worn valve guides at 85K miles!)  That plus routine maintenance on the chassis and a generator service cost us about $10,000.

(We were luckier than the Allegro Bus parked next to us, his engine was 'dusted' when he bought it - the story is that Camping World installed the air filter backwards and the engine ingested dust and ruined the turbo, intercooler, piston rings, cylinder sleeves, etc. That rebuild cost him or maybe CW $35,000.)

Quote
I'm of the mind set that I will have to take my Trend to the mother ship in Forest City to get the new 2016 bed correctly installed, my dealer installed it but not in the correct place on the wall. 
That's always my first choice for service.  Thanks for the detailed information about the chassis' and models Mike.
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2006 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited
Our Horizon projects
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Mfreyder

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Re: View or Trend?
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2015, 11:07:12 AM »
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Viva-Trend/photos/photostream/lightbox/501661895?orderBy=mtime&sortOrder=desc&photoFilter=ALL#zax/501661895

Hi John

If the above link works you will see the two designs side by side.  I could not download the pix.  It was taken by a 2016 owner who put the two, mine, and his, side by side.  The jack screw in both designs connects to a rod or arm that is then connected to a lifting arm.  In the 14, and 15 design, that arm is a thin maybe 1/8" thick by 1 1/4" flat piece of metal, and as you can see in the pix on the left side, bent where the jack screw nut connects to it.  The pix on the right shows that piece to be a rectangular channel, superior in capability to handle the load.  This this is a real improvement.

Now on the new design, they connected that jack screw to the motor shaft by drilling out the jack screw and inserting the motor shaft into the screw, secured with a roll pin.  Well they only left 1/32" of metal in the wall thickness of the jack screw there they drilled it out.  In my case when I climbed into the bed both jack screws snapped off right at the point where the end of the motor shaft was.  See pix.  WGO has stated up to this point it was because I did not lower the bed to the stops, and therefore the entire weight of the bed and myself was on the jack screw.  Well....  No where did they caution against not lowering the bed all the way to the stops, and in my case the dealer had installed the bed in the wrong location on the walls, and if I had lowered it to the stops it would have hit the dinette table.  In fact when the screws snapped it did come to rest on the table.  WGO should have left the jack screw alone and used a coupling to connect the motor to the screw.  Nothing would have been compromised.

Diesel equals expense, so I'm staying away from a diesel, because I can.  Those that like or need the torque, GOD bless you.  I'm into "camping" more than touring, but the wife needs more comfort than a tent.  So, we are where we are.  At almost 61 I need to not sleep on the ground.

Mike

 

Mfreyder

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Re: View or Trend?
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2015, 11:08:01 AM »
more

Mfreyder

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Re: View or Trend?
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2015, 11:08:31 AM »
more

John Canfield

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Re: View or Trend?
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2015, 12:40:45 PM »
You can add multiple photos to one post - just click on more attachments text link.  I discovered the Yahoo photo album doesn't work in Firefox but I could see the picture in Internet Explorer.

I'm trying to get the big picture here.  The loft bed design was improved from 2014/15 model years to the 2016 model year but it could still be improved in your opinion.  You had the 2016 mechanism retrofitted in your unit but the dealer installed it wrong and you can't lower it all the way because it would hit your table.  You broke the mechanism due to bed not being installed properly and you weren't aware to lower it all the way.  Does this summarize the situation?
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2006 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited
Our Horizon projects
Our weather

Mfreyder

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Re: View or Trend?
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2015, 05:43:10 PM »
You got it.  The 2016 design jack screws, according to WGO, are not made to carry the weight of the bed and a person.  So when I lowered it as the dealer told me to, I climbed in and the jack screws popped one at a time.  The diameter of the screws with threads is almost 1/2", should be able to pull the weight of your diesel, unless one drills out the center mass of the screw leaving 1/32" wall thickness.  I'm not all knowing but I wasn't born yesterday either.  I'm more than a little tied of the BS.  Also I'm sure that I saw the jack screw wobbling on the opposite end from the motor.  I didn't think much of it at the time, in my mind I thought that the nut it was running through was floating so no big deal.  Well the only reason for the wobble was if the hole drilled for the motor shaft was not square to the center line of the screw.  With all the weight applied the screw was most likely work hardening right at the very point it snapped.

When I first asked WGO when they were going to redesign the bed mechanism so it would work, I got the "you're the first person to ever complain" answer.  Then when it was obvious they had redesigned it already for a later year model, and it was working, why did they redesign?  Nothing else to do?  They decided to replace mine, which was the correct decision, and one finally in a customer facing direction.  So this begs the question, what about all those other 2014 and 2015 units?

OK so now again when I brought up the lack of meat in the jack screw on the 2016, they once again commented, "we haven't had a single problem".  Well guess what, you just did.  "Well it wasn't installed properly", well it should be able to handle that load especially since there is nothing in the manual that says to lower it to the stops!

You see there are cabinets hanging from the bottom of the bed.  Left and right sides.  If someone is sleeping on the dinette or sofa, and the loft it is beneficial not to lower the loft all the way as to allow the bottom sleepers more room.  This is done all the time I would bet, especially since there is noting that says otherwise!

We'll go back to with WGO tomorrow, since they failed to answer emails on Friday.

Mike

Mfreyder

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Re: View or Trend?
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2015, 11:00:04 PM »
Update to the loft bed issue.  Got back from a trip to WGO in Forest City last week.  They took the coach in on the date agreed before I left.  They returned it to me at the end of the day, with only one side of the bed resting on the stop.  That would have put half the weight on the bed on the jack screw they claimed was not up to that task.  The lead tech came out and inspected and agreed they failed to inspect both stops and that I should bring it back in the next day.

I did as asked, and it took all day again but it was resting on both stops at the end of the following day.

The jack screws and motors are pretty much a joke, the motors installed at this repair are worse than the originals that the screws snapped off of.  I was told an engineer looked at the motors and made the statement that they were ok.  As the bed is being raised, one can hear the wobble in the motors strain on and off to raise the bed to the ceiling.  We have not slept on the bed since repaired, I did lower it to the stops, and climbed in after the first day, that was when it was obvious it was not resting on the right hand side stop, it bounced.

So the out come?  It is repaired after two full days in the WGO shop, one failed delivery, one success, but these motors are going to be an issue down the road.  There is also no adjustment to the so called stops.  You have to look at this monster to realize that it is very difficult to get the two brackets on the walls so the bed that swings between them is perfectly located on the walls and rest on both stops correctly.  I suggested an adjustable stop which they took into consideration.  I'd be interested in finding out if they do anything more with my suggestion. 

Imagine the production line taking two days to get this bed aligned correctly.  It is my guess that not a single unit leaving the factory is done correctly, or as they say resting on both stops when lowered.  There is also no mention of this warning in the manuals.  So still some one might lower the bed to a comfortable level and climb in.  Putting all the weight on the jack screws.

Once delivered I found metal drill shavings and excess screws under my sofa.  The curtain torn (which they have since replaced), and the bed is lower on one side than the other so the motors are not in sync.  All easy to clear up, but it should not be my job to inspect the work once completed.

Quite disappointed.  If WGO is the best the RV industry has to offer, it is in a sad state.

Mike Freyder
2014 Trend 23B

John Canfield

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Re: View or Trend?
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2015, 08:03:40 AM »
Interesting situation.  Winnie produces a bunch of those units so I'm surprised we don't have more reports of the problem like the Schwintek slides.  My buddy had a Safari Trek with a loft bed that rode up and down on slotted rails, I remember him having a problem with the gear drive getting out of sync once in a while.
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2006 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited
Our Horizon projects
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Mfreyder

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Re: View or Trend?
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2015, 10:04:56 AM »
To the original post, I wish WGO made a View twin bed floor plan on a Promaster chassis, no slides.  There are up sides to the Trend, cabinets are of a good quality, nice side shower and bathroom in general, the video/audio interface is done well.  We just got back from a OKC quick trip, the PM chassis performed great again, drove through Noah class rain and no water issues and the chassis did well on the wet roads.  Looking at web reports on the 62TE xmsn the future looks good, looks like they learned from the 63TE.  We own a 2011 T&C as well, and have had good performance from the engine xmsn combination.  The only issue as far as the PM chassis that I see is tho there are plenty of Ram dealers, not all will work on the PM chassis, yet.

I installed a second battery, and it made a world of difference on dry camping.  Given the options of only a diesel chassis for the View, I would choose the Trend again, but the L floorplan as the loft bed is not so important with a rear corner bed.

In fact I think the L is the more popular model, and could be the reason there are not more complaints on the loft bed, it is not used as much for L model owners. The 23B loft bed is a two fold, the 2014, 2015 design fail was corrected but with poor designed motors.  Contrary to my story, one FL owner of a B (2014 bed) has made a run to Alaska and used his loft bed without complaints.  Maybe I should play the lottery i'm so lucky.  :P

I'm going to make the best of the Trend and enjoy camping and touring, but will make the Trend custom to our needs, which will not include using the loft bed.  My wife is now afraid to sleep under it, with someone on it since the jack screws snapped.  I will not be jumping on the WGO happy bus, they had a chance to put their best foot forward two weeks ago and failed to impress.  Loft bed aside, the chassis is great.

Mike Freyder

AlLeeShaw

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Re: View or Trend?
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2017, 03:36:31 AM »
Great stuff, folks... we just bought a 2014 with only 3,600 miles (today's date is 4-20-17) and after 2 short outings we've had no issues with the loft bed (fingers crossed!). On another subject, 'Wondering if any of you know where I may buy OEM seam caulk... for future use. T
Thanks in advance...

John Canfield

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Re: View or Trend?
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2017, 07:05:37 AM »
... 'Wondering if any of you know where I may buy OEM seam caulk... for future use. T..
Question answered in a new thread.
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2006 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited
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Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: View or Trend?
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2017, 07:17:30 AM »
Any RV store and most hardware & home stores will have a suitable caulk. Amazon & Ebay too. Geocel Proflex is a good choice, as is Dicor Lap Sealant, but most any caulk rated for exterior use, e.g. windows and doors, would be fine.  If using a lap sealant, make sure it is NOT the self-leveling type. The "self-leveling" sealants are too runny for vertical seams. 3M also makes an excellent seam sealer called 3M Flexiclear Body Seam Seal, usually found in automotive stores or on Amazon. A little pricey but a great product.

https://www.amazon.com/Geocel-28100V-Crystal-Flexible-Sealant/dp/B001FC98X2
https://www.amazon.com/3M-08405-Flexiclear-Sealer-Cartridge/dp/B0015PKNDI
Gary
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Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

 

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