RV Quality ?

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In discussions about RV quality people often wonder why RVs can't be of the same quality as automobiles.  Well, I was just reading the December 2015 issue of Consumer Reports and the article on p.81 "Biggest New Car Gripes" is enlightening.  They surveyed OWNERS of more than 740,000 vehicles and asked them about troubles with their new cars.  The five primary complaints relating to reliability were:

Power Accessories (keyless entry, lights, gauges, tire-pressure monitor, windshield wipers)
In-Car Electronics (backup cameras, stereo system, telephone pairing, displayscree, navigation system)
Climate Systems (automatic climate controo, A/C compressor, evaporator, heater, refrigerant leaks)
Noises/Leaks (air or water leaks, weather stripping, squeaks or rattles, wind noise)
Paint and Trim (loose trim or moldings, paint fading, chalking, cracking or peeling)

Other complaints include hatch/trunk, engine computer, engine knock or ping, engine rebuild, brake rotors, brake squeaking, shocks/struts, steering linkage, steering vibration, dual-clutch transmission.  And of course we all know about the Takata airbags that need to be replaced in many thousands of cars across many brands.  And then there's the latest Volkswagen problem with their emission systems not meeting government requirements because they cheated on testing.

These are just cars!  Now add in all the things that can go wrong in an RV "house" and it's a wonder anything works in our motorhomes.

ArdraF 
 
Paint and Trim (loose trim or moldings, paint fading, chalking, cracking or peeling)
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Interesting Ardra, thanks. In the mid 90's I attended a "quality" symposium hosted by the "Big 3" at a college in Detroit. At one point, I put my hand up and related my story with paint issues on my 1984 Ford Bronco and again, after listening to the jingle "At Ford, Quality is Job 1" for 10 years, on a Lincoln Town Car in the 90's. Both vehicles were purchased new.

The Ford guy jumped up, pointed at me, and yelled to the entire room "we've heard that story a million times, and we need to do something about it". Sounds like they didn't  ???
 
Yup!  Jerry and I tried to explain the concept of Zero Defects to some RV manufacturers and we never felt we got the point across to them.  In fact the entire concept of Quality Control was lost on them.  We had the same thing as our house was being built.  We would point out an obvious defect and were told they would fix it later.  Of course, you know Jerry - these defects got fixed NOW.  One was the cover that goes on top of the chimney to keep out rain water.  The edges were just a tad too small so the cover was put on with the edges inside the chimney instead of outside to deflect water to the outside of the chimney.  Every house was that way until Jerry pushed the builder.  We thought it was common sense to put the edges outside but I think that's another human quality that has gone by the wayside.

ArdraF

 
Ardra, your "house" stories parallel what I went through when we did an extensive ($$$) remodel on this house. Jerry probably sounded like me  ;D

One industry that beats RVs for lack of quality disciplines is the boating industry. We paid several times the cost of our coach for our boat (both new), but the boat had more/bigger issues, and I had numerous discussions with the manufacturer. At one point I volunteered to go into their factories and help them.

Meanwhile, Chris has a business remodeling boats/yachts and you wouldn't believe the stuff we find on these expensive vessels. I take photos to document what we find for the owners before proceeding with any repairs.

Having run manufacturing operations at several companies, and having toured countless supplier factories around the world, I know where the skeletons are hidden. Touring a couple of Monaco factories and an "expensive" boat factory quickly told me why we see what we see in the finished product.
 
In 1977 I worked at the Kenworth factory in Seattle. I was a mechanic in the Final Test and Engineering Department. At that time a team of 2 inspectors went over each rig with a fine tooth comb to find anything that was out of spec. Wiring bundles that weren't far enough from exhaust pipes, screw heads that were stripped out, scratches in upholstery, white marks in the overhead plastic liner from being creased during installation, a hole in the frame that didn't have a bolt in it (every frame was custom drilled to that rig. If a change order came after the print for that frame was finished, it might have a hole that wasn't used, we plugged it with a bolt, lockwasher and nut) air pressure gauges that didn't match each other, doors misaligned, any leak after the water test, vibrations, rattles, wind leaks, (each rig was test driven on the road) wrinkles in carpet, etc, etc, etc.

Each rig was as perfect as possible before it left our facility. If the paint had been scratched it went next door to our shop for touch up or repaint at the factory paint shop, not the dealer. (as a side note, Gary Ridgeway, the Green River Killer worked in the paint shop next door to our shop. We ate lunch together many times.) If the clutch chattered, the driveline clanked, or the fuel tank was at the wrong angle it was replaced or adjusted before it left the factory.

If was common to have 20 to 40 write ups on each rig. The assembly line moved at a set pace, each part of the rig was attached to the chain in the floor, and woe be to the guy who pulled the emergency stop cord. The fellow that installed the dash board and connected the individual wires to each gauge, shuffled his feet along with the movement of the cab as he hooked things up. There were no floor boards or seats in the rig at that part of the line. If the regular guy was out that day a "raider" took his place. He may not know the job as well as the regular guy, so we'd get a rig with a couple of gauges not wired up, or not wired correctly.

Quality control can be done. But it costs money. At the time I was there we had 14 mechanics, and 6 inspectors to fix 21 complete rigs built each day. The 2 gliders made each day didn't go thru our shop. A glider is a chassis and body with no rear axle, engine or transmission. A trucker who has a good drive train can save money by moving his good parts to a new chassis. Typically done after an accident, fire, etc.

Some rigs came thru with only 6 or 8 gigs. Some had over 100. The mechanics did not like to get assigned to those rigs. Typically those were the ones that had a major equipment snafu. The correct transmission wasn't in stock and the rig got bumped out of line. Therefore every other part downstream was "set aside" waiting for that truck to come thru. Wouldn't you know it, somebody wouldn't notice that an assembly number was out of sequence and put the wrong seats in the wrong truck. Or the dash guy would attempt to put the wrong dash in, find his mistake too late to fix it and 3/4 of the dash wasn't hooked up. And it just cascaded from there. Remember the chain keeps plodding along no matter what.

Ken
 
run26 said:
My wife and I are so looking forward to RVing in a couple of years. I have done lots of research!  I am continually confronted with POOR quality ratings and complaints I am very confused and discouraged. How do I get to the bottom of this and get a QUALITY RV or if you want to RV do you just have to settle for poor quality. Thanks for your help with this frustrating issue.
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Anyone notice that run26 hasn't been back since original post 124 replies ago?  :'(
Wonder if he is satisfied with our responses?

Guess the long and short of it is "quality is in the eye of the beholder" then again... ???

Keith
 
It's common for discussions to take on a life of their own. One of our longest discussions was on the subject of T.P.  ;D but I have no idea if the OP stuck around that long  ???
 
bucks2 said:
2 inspectors went over each rig with a fine tooth comb to find anything that was out of spec. ........
Each rig was as perfect as possible before it left our facility.
Ken
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Can not speak or reference Kenworth quality, but more of a general statement.  Actually I worked in a department for a major steel company back in the day when the automotive industry began the big push for quality.  This was the time when they were implementing many of Dr. Deming's statistical methodology.  If I remember correctly, he stated that 100% inspection was only 80% effective.  Guess who gets to find the rest!  :p  Nature of the beast.  Do not think the RV industry has fully embraced the same quality levels.
 
Ken - Interesting description of the production line.  Like I said earlier, it's a miracle we get as good as we do!

ArdraF
 
Gary Ridgeway painted motorcycles at home when he wasn't busy killing young women. He stole the paint from work. When exiting the plant each night you were required to open your lunchbox to show the guard that you weren't stealing a Kenworth one piece at a time, Johnny Cash style. Gary figured out that a one quart canning jar fit perfectly inside a widemouth thermos bottle housing. Take out the thermos lining and slide the jar in. So at lunch you never saw him have soup or coffee or anything out of his thermos.

Ken
 
bucks2, I can relate to that level of quality control. I was working in the last station of final assembly on the F-35 line. Like you we had to prove that all the different systems on the aircraft worked and sell them to the customer rep. I think it is had to explain the level of scrutiny involve. Every thing had to be perfect. The amount of dust on your screen right now would have failed an area like a wheel well. Go ahead and wipe your finger across the screen and see.
I was also involved in programs where we worked with the company to improve quality.
We got an Atta boy one time for 5 0 defect delivery's that is no write-ups on delivery to the flight line, after first flight and after the ferry flight to the receiving base. I  would like to see someone in the RV industry do that just once.   
The RV industry could do a lot by adopting some of the basic practices.
Back in reply #47 I talked about the lack of pressure on the industry to change. The only hope is to get management to understand that starting with good quality and good quality material will cost a little more up front but reduce cost when it comes to warranty work and the bad press that brings.
I am hoping that the changes at Allied Specialty Vehicles which has changed their name to REV Group Inc. Will include changes to overall quality.
Head is a link to a press release video about the change
http://www.revgroup.com/video/
Bill

 
WILDEBILL308 said:
I  would like to see someone in the RV industry do that just once.  The RV industry could do a lot by adopting some of the basic practices.
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Give me half of what a F-35 costs and I'll build you a zero defect RV. :)
 
Molaker said:
Give me half of what a F-35 costs and I'll build you a zero defect RV. :)
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I still don't think you could. The culture of the business has to change. You find the same problems in a million+ coach that you find in a coach costing a hundred thousand. Throwing money at it won't solve the underlying problem.
Bill
 
WILDEBILL308 said:
I still don't think you could. The culture of the business has to change. You find the same problems in a million+ coach that you find in a coach costing a hundred thousand. Throwing money at it won't solve the underlying problem.
Bill
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I said I'll built it.  Of course, I'm not sure I'd live long enough. :)
 
Molaker said:
Give me half of what a F-35 costs and I'll build you a zero defect RV. :)
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most RV's don't have those same costly radar/weapon systems......but what does a business jet cost as compared to a nice Provost ? 
 
TonyDtorch said:
most RV's don't have those same costly radar/weapon systems......but what does a business jet cost as compared to a nice Provost ?
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About 4 to 5 times as much.  Prevosts don't have to take off and land.
 
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