House battery fire

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Were the new batteries the exact size dimension as the ones they replaced?
 
Is it possible that the cable (s) could have gotten between one of the terminals and the top of the enclosure?
 
Were all six new batteries exactly the same physical size as each other?

Were all six new batteries electrically the same?

Any evidence at this late stage that any tools or other loose parts were left in the battery compartment after the install, then 'relocated themselves' to where they were not supposed to be?

FWIW
 
This is still a guess but could a left behind tool, used to install the batteries have been bouncing around in the battery compartment and sit at a tipping point then made a short while entering (or walking in) the coach? That tool could have been traveling around for a while without a problem until it moved to a different position. Is all the debris at the fire site been investigated and identified?
 
If the battery were hook up wrong they would have started shorting immediately.  The cause would be internal or one of the pos wires grounded to another cable, battery, or ground.  Either way the company should be held responsible for it. If one of the cables came loose they would arc where it was grounding . Inspect the end of the cables for arcing. the ends will look like it was cut through or grind flat. Also check any area in reach of the cables to a ground source. I have seen in the past were techs wire up the cables by hand and forget to tighten them down snug. Customer would come back later complaining of poor battery performance and i would see the battery cables on but not tighten down. The only way this could not be the shops fault is if your charger or alternator is over charging. I would have them both tested and if they are fine then the shop is responsible. I worked as a licensed tech for 20 years. If this happen to the shop I worked for the boss would have us inspect the RV to see if we could find a cause for the fire.. I would check for bad alternator, bad charger, signs that the customer may have installed something after we worked on it. Signs that the fire started close to the battery area and not at the battery. If I found nothing my report to the boss would be tech error like leaving something loose or leaving a metal tool in the battery tray or a battery defect. The problem is its easier for the shop to play dumb than admit it is there fault. If you let the shop know that this can only be a battery defect and you just want the battery replaced they probably will do that. The shop will have the battery company eat the cost on the batteries and the shop would eat the labour and the cost for a couple of cables but if you are looking for damages to the RV to be repaired it will be a uphill battle.
 
Interesting discussion.

Lots of great guesses and suppositions, none of it particularly useful except for the advice of deciding whether or not to pay for an expert to formulate an opinion. Without an expert opinion, you really can't go forward.

And true, different experts can have different opinions.

It is totally irrelevant regarding timing. Any experienced RVer knows you can inspect a rig, ok it, drive it out the door, and wham something goes wrong. Not really fair to play the timing game.

Another option is to split the repair cost with the original installer if the cost to get an expert opinion is not worth it to you. Sounds like your installer is a decent guy, so give him a fair shake and suggest an agreed to "joint expert" at a joint cost if he will go for it.

Try to avoid becoming aggressive or getting an attorney.

Some so-called experts are simply corrupt and provide biased opinions, so if you hire one by yourself, depending on how it goes, the integrity of the expert could come under question.

But, really, stop with all the supposition stuff.
 
RodgerS said:
It is totally irrelevant regarding timing. Any experienced RVer knows you can inspect a rig, ok it, drive it out the door, and wham something goes wrong. Not really fair to play the timing game.

But, really, stop with all the supposition stuff.

I don't suppose you could give us an example of where timing isn't relevant could you? I've been deposed any number of times on fires where roofers were working 3 hours prior to the fire. Some where plumbers were working shortly before the fire. All the attorneys present seemed to agree that events prior to the loss were relevant. I even had a telephone interview where the insurance company was balking about paying for a wheel and tire assembly that came off a pickup, apparently from the lug nuts not being tightened at the tire store. They seemed to think that the new tires 5 days earlier were pertinent to the tire coming off, bouncing down the freeway and hitting another car.

Part of my job was determining why fires started unless it met certain parameters (over $10,000 damage, public official involved, loss of life or serious injury requiring hospitalization, or sign of arson) in which case we'd call for a full time investigator. We got regular training regarding what to look for and it always included what was happening when the fire started and what had happened prior. One of the prime questions for a car fire, typically starting under the hood, was when was it worked on last? For a battery compartment fire it would certainly be pertinent when and what was done in that compartment.

I know you've been a repair technician for almost a year now, and will soon buy an RV to get some experience being an RV'r. I was a firefighter for 31 years, 26 as an officer. I'll bet I have a more knowledge on this than you do. Timing is important.

Ken
 
bucks2 said:
One of the prime questions for a car fire, typically starting under the hood, was when was it worked on last? For a battery compartment fire it would certainly be pertinent when and what was done in that compartment.
I'm with Ken totally!
I was in law enforcement for 26 years and a crime scene investigator (in the Netherlands) for 10 years. We also investigated fires and always started with looking at what happened before the fire. If there was work done or something had been changed before the fire (no matter if it was a house, a car or a building) there was a very good chance we or our crime-lab could prove it was related to why the fire had started. In case we could not prove a relationship between the before circumstances and the fire it was because the evidence was probably destroyed by accident or on purpose. Our success rate of solving a case was about 75% of all cases, way higher then many of you might have guessed. To solve a case the evidence gathering must be done by trained personnel and the scene must be documented very precise.

So my point is that what happened before the fire is VERY relevant! This was also the reason I asked in a post before this one if all material at the scene was identified.

Last week we had a oil change for one of our cars. Four days later we discovered some oil on the garage floor.... Guess if that had something to do with the oil change? 
 
RodgerS said:
...But, really, stop with all the supposition stuff.
I do find the supposition offerings informative - not for us at long distance to analyze what actually caused the fire but to be aware of what not to do with a battery installation/replacement.
 
Hello all. Just wanted to give you an update as to the progress in our investigation of the battery burning. To answer some of your great questions... Yes the batteries were all the same brand and they were the same size as the old ones. They are holding on to the old batteries until all this is finalized. We all inspected the cables and we really did not see any arching in the cables, surroundings area, cover, etc. Two batteries that were not to each other are melted and the others look as though they were burnt from the two. We didn't find any "extra" things in the compartment but if that was the scenario, it could have been left on the ground in the confusion although everything else was taken back.

The thermal runaway research was interesting reading. I shared this with the service manager also as he had never heard of it before.

Someone had brought up over charging as a possible cause. He put in two new batteries and plugged it in to check the charging voltage. Came in at 14.4 volts which he said was high but didn't think it was enough to cause this. Any opinions on this would be appreciated.

The batteries were purchased through a local distributed and wasn't much help as they are just the middle man without much knowledge. At our last conversation the service manager was going to contact the battery manufacturer directly, I think in Pennsylvania. He was going to push for answers based on what we have tried to rule out and see if they can provide further direction for investigation or give some information about their batteries.

Regarding the "who will pay for this" question, we haven't even gone there yet. They are a reputable company and my expectation is for them to be fair as I will. Let the chips fall as they will. The important thing is to feel safe that this will not happen again if new batteries are installed.

Thank you all again for your input. It has been very valuable. Hiring an expert to investigate and disearn the cause is something we hope to avoid by all involved being open through this process as everyone has so far.
 
14.4 is not excessive unless the battery is already fully charged and only needs "float" charging to maintain that level. In fact, for a flooded cell battery, 14.4v is the recommended voltage for the bulk and absorption charging stages.

You need to measure the state-of-charge to determine whether the charger is acting properly at that voltage or not. A specific gravity measurement  with a common battery hydrometer should be close enough, even though it is not laboratory-grade accurate.
 
There is one more charge situation - some smart chargers will enter into an equalization charge mode every 30 days (or whatever period) or as selected by the user.  The charger will pump 15.5V into the bank for a length of time, if yours got 'stuck' in this mode the bank would be overcharged and I assume can trigger thermal runaway.
 
looking at your battery pictures, is the screw terminal on the left of the badly melted battery burnt up? I don't see it in the picture. If the terminal is missing or melted, my guess is the problem started there. loose connection started arcing there possibly.
 
John Canfield said:
There is one more charge situation - some smart chargers will enter into an equalization charge mode every 30 days (or whatever period) or as selected by the user.  The charger will pump 15.5V into the bank for a length of time, if yours got 'stuck' in this mode the bank would be overcharged and I assume can trigger thermal runaway.
If the OP had his house-batteries replaced with the same type that came with the coach (AGMs), the equalization feature in his Magnum converter would have been disabled. Of course, I suppose someone could have inadvertantly turned it on.

Kev
 
You are being so nice and polite about this.

I give you an AAA+++ for civility, something we desperately need more of.

I do believe the service center owes you for all repairs and a replacement extinguisher. But you may want to alert your insurance company too. They might sort it out for you, who owes what where.

I find the one little fire extinguisher to be woefully inadequate. So I travel with 3. Um, well actually 2 now, I need to go buy a new 3rd one.

I accidentally discharged one in my basement, and brother that was a mess, it's like having 5 pounds of super fine talcum powder dumped into your carpeted basement.

Shame on me for not installing that extinguisher in a timely manner that would have prevented this expensive gaffe.  ::)
 
Update... The batteries are being shipped to the manufacturer for analysis. I have many pictures and such but they have experts that said they can determine the failure.

Our insurance company has been contacted when this first happened and is standing by in case if needed based on determination.

As far as civility, I learned a long time ago most people try to do their best in their jobs everyday. If given the opportunity, most and I really mean most will do the right thing and admit mistakes and wrong doing if approached in a positive, trusted and open way. Yes I have been burned but with business we employees and suppliers and life in general, this is not only the right thing to do but pays off in the long run. Also, this is how I want to be treated. Life is too short. IMHO.
 
Back again finally.... Just picked up our motorhomes this afternoon after being fixed. Feels good to have it back again although we don't have any trips planned in the near future.

Six brand new batteries and all new cables. The house battery cover is still on back order from Winnebago but I needed to pick it up and get it in a heated storage area because it's suppose to freeze this weekend and it's not winterized. They steam cleaned the carpet in the whole bay are underneath where the fire was and the fire extinguisher was discharged. Looks great. The best news is there was no bill! The battery manufacturer provided them with six new batteries at no cost to them. They were still not able to determine what happened exactly because the firemen ripped everything out of there but my opinion is that a cable was left loose which caused at least two of the batteries to heat up and start a thermal runaway situation. The interesting thing is that all the batteries, even the two melted ones were still able to be load tested. My understanding is that these types of batteries don't create an open circuit inside even in these conditions.

The motorhome inverter, alternator or electrical system was determined not to have caused this situation. Another thing I learned is that the inverter has a battery overheating indicator device that is connected to one of the batteries that is suppose to stop charging the batteries if it detects an overheated battery. This indicator wire was burnt in half but probeably caused by laying on one of the burnt batteries.

This was not a good situation but I am thankful as it all could have been much worse, even tragic. Thank you again for all your input. It was very helpful.
 

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