Flat tow or toad?

garyb1st said:

Are there any downsides to lube pumps and drive shaft disconnects?  I'm thinking mechanical failures of related systems, not the inconvenience of connecting/disconnecting.

Click to expand...

Is the possiblility of a failure there, yes.  It is a mechanical and electrical system so there is not way to guarantee there won't be a failure.  Is it commone, no.  I will say that the driveshaft disconnect is a bit tempermental to reconnect.  We have a friend who had one installed on a Ford Explorer and when hooking up to tow, the disconneting was simply pulling a lever to disconnect the driveshaft and it was ready to go.  Upon disconnecting the toad and getting ready to drive the splines were a bit touchy getting lined up to re-engage the driveshaft coupler.  Sometimes this required me helping him to rock or push the vehicle to get it to re-connect.  Not a huge deal but I thought it worth mentioning.

Mike.

garyb1st said:

Blakduke, Do you have any info besides your friends experience to support your concern.  If we buy a Jeep it will only be so we can flat tow it behind our motorhome.  If this is a legit concern, I'll continue to tow the HHR or look into trailers and tow my old SUV.  Can't even use a dolly on that one.  It has good ground clearance and limited slip differential so, while not 4WD, it's a capable vehicle.  It's also a luxury SUV and a joy to drive.  Difference between pulling on a trailer and new Jeep, probably $35,000.   

As an aside, the transmission in my 2005 Ford F250 went south after 27,000 miles.  It's not towable and I never towed it.  I also never towed anything with it before its failure.  **** happens. 

Personally I think it's impossible to mass produce a defect free product.  Guess the tranny problem in my Ford was just dumb luck.  Unfortunately it was my dumb luck.  Thankfully, it was covered under warranty and served me well for the next 80,000 miles.  That's when I pulled a small trailer.

Click to expand...

You answered your own question there.  Your truck had a transmission problem and it was never towed.  Mechanical failures happen, plain and simple.

To respond to Blakduke's concern, if that is his concern no one will change his mind.  He has an opinion impressed in his mind based on someone close to him's experience.  None of us will change that because the experience is personal to him.  I get that.

That said, the fact that your friend had a transmission problem in a Jeep while towing tells me one thing, he did not put the transfer case into neutral properly because if he had the transmission would never have been turning in the first place.  The transfer case is what de-couples the transmission forward from the front and rear axles, period.

To base a decision to not flat tow (a Jeep of all vehicles) doesn't make any sense to me but again, we are not going to change someone's personal experience.  I have flat-towed Jeeps for well over 100k miles in the past 20+ years now of and probably another 40k in our trailers, never to have had any negative experience as well as any of the friends we have traveled with.

My uncle lost a transmission in his older Ford Bronco II but that was because he forgot to put the transfer case in neutral and headed down the highway.  Was it costly, yes.  Human error plain and simple and he didn't blame anyone or the vehicle, just himself.

I think you have gotten many sides of the proverbial coin in this discussion and there are many more discussion just like it.

Bottom line is there are some vehicles that are more easily flat-towed than others and your end goal on what you want in a toad needs to be taken into consideration before making a final decision.

Mike.

garyb1st said:

Are there any downsides to lube pumps and drive shaft disconnects?  I'm thinking mechanical failures of related systems, not the inconvenience of connecting/disconnecting. 

Click to expand...

Drive shaft disconnect problems are usually due to either dirt buildup or misadjustment, both relatively easy fixes usually. Transmission lube pumps are a one time installation, and require no additional hookup procedures beyond flipping a dash mounted switch in the coach. All power and control of the pump comes from the coach via a standard 6-pin cable that also feeds the brake/directional lights. The dash control also has indicator lights and an alarm that warn of any pump problems in the rare event they occur. In the unlikely event there is a pump related failure, the transmission does not instantly self-destruct, but you are instantly warned of the failure, allowing plenty of time to pull off the road and take any needed corrective action.

In the case of Jeeps with a manual transfer case, the trans is completely disconnected if you initialize it properly (tx case to neutral, trans to park). Not a concern!

Ernie

Wow - well said Mike!!

May also be worth noting that "Jeep" is the manufacturer - there was no mention of the model on which the tranny failure occurred.  I understand that the older Cherokee was also easy to tow four down (but have no experience).

Mike, Dutch and Ernie, thanks for the info.  Helps with the decision going forward.  I'll have to have my wife read this stuff if we get a Jeep.  My ADD and impatience usually gets me in trouble.  At 72, I should be beyond the impatience thing.  Unfortunately, my ADD seems to be getting worse with age.  That or Old-timers Disease.   

Gary, as a fellow "72'er", I know exactly what you mean! I think, well maybe, anyway, what were we talking about?  ;D

Gary, thanks for your input.  I am also in my 70's, 76 to be exact, and have a knee going south on me.  I could probably live with using the tow dolly, and get it down to 20 minutes or less change over.  I am more concerned about the times when I have to move the tow dolly by hand, it is heavy, and I have to lean over considerably as I can only lift the tongue so far or the ramps will drag on the ground.  Thanks again all, for the feed back, think I will try the flat tow on the T&C to see how that works out.  Realize that the base plate, wires, tow bars and lube pump plus installation will cost over $2,500.00, but once I found out that I didn't have to purchase another car, trading in a perfectly good Land Rover that I love, and would have taken a considerable hit on, feel this is the way I want to go.

Please post back afterwards as I think it would be helpful to anyone else reading this that goes through the thought and decision making process.  Many times people don't check back in and report after a major change and we never find out their true opinions.

Thank you.

Mike.

zmotorsports said:

Please post back afterwards as I think it would be helpful to anyone else reading this that goes through the thought and decision making process.  Many times people don't check back in and report after a major change and we never find out their true opinions.

Thank you.

Mike.

Click to expand...

X2, I'm thinking of doing that with our Infiniti SUV.  It's 15 years old but has a lot of life left in it. 

Another vote for tow dollies, Any front drive car you purchase, within the weight limit is towable, no additional expense! no new lube pump for a different application no new base plate. We all know the trailer plugs are prone to malfunction and you lose trailer lights or electric brakes or something, woe to the toad when the lube pump wire fails. Then there's the procedure that has to be followed for transmissions that can be flat towed, Pull this fuse, or flip that switch, start it cycle the gears just so, repeat every so many miles or hours. With a dolly drive it on, chain it down check chains 1/2 hour out and whenever you stretch your legs, I also thump all my tires at the same time. I spent the money once, less than what I've seen spent on a flat toad rig, and it will out last a couple different toads. If money wasn't part of the equation, I might go flat tow, but a dolly is way cheaper in the long run. As far as moving the dolly by hand I don't, one of my toads had a hitch so I parked it that way. I have no hitch on my current toad, drive thrus I pull in too far, drop the dolly and back up over it. For back in spots I just back it in drop it and back up a couple more feet. They aren't that hard to back up just don't let them jack around very far. I have been pulling trailers for many years so maybe it just seems easy to me.

Bill

driftless shifter said:

...woe to the toad when the lube pump wire fails...

Click to expand...

Just to be clear, there is no "woe" in the unlikely event of a lube pump failure. An alarm sounds and a red LED lights up instantly in the coach, and you have plenty time to safely pull off the road before any transmission damage occurs. If the problem is a simple loose plug, then the fix is obvious. If the fix is not obvious and easily done, you have two options; if a co-pilot is on board, just unhook the toad and have the co-pilot drive it normally until you reach a location where further diagnostics and repairs can be performed. Or if there's no co-pilot, just reach in, start the engine, and continue on to the location. I'll just add that in nearly 50,000 miles towing two different toads, I have never had to use either option.

What are the options when a tow dolly looses a wheel bearing? Or a basket strap fails? Or a platform pivot fails? I've seen all of those occur over the years, but I've never seen or even talked to anyone that has had a Remco lube pump fail.

If convenience and minimal physical effort is the top priority, then flat tow is the way to go. I don't think a dolly is a terrible pain, but it does involve some extra work and may be a nuisance is some campgrounds.

And the extra maintenance of packing wheel bearings, repainting chips, and two extra tires to buy, along with straps and the extra effort to check them at every stop. (like those terribly bothersome tag axles. I hear people that don't have one complain about how expensive the tag axles are to maintain every so often)

Really doesn't make a difference, if you want a dolly get one. You'll find a way to make it work or you'll not take your toad on some trips or maybe even stop travelling altogether. If you flat tow and have to eat ramen noodles for 2 months to pay for it you'll resent the cost and be unhappy with it. Find a method that works for you after you think about what you really want to do. Trying a dolly and then changing to flat tow is an expense you don't really need.

KEn

Toads can lose wheel bearings too. I use chains instead of straps. The pivot point is less likely to fail than an electric pump. The dolly would have to be very old or high mileage. A dolly is a one time expense that can tow multiple vehicles without added expense every time you obtain a new toad. A brand new dolly can be bought for less than most flat tow accessories, about $1500, you can find them used for half that. Most states you don't have to even register them. Like anything else mechanical take care of it and it will take care of you.

Here's a link to a blog that lays out pros and cons between the two quite nicely.
http://www.rvlove.com/2015/08/11/faq-pros-cons-tow-dolly-4-down/#sthash.8ykrLG4a.dpbs

This is a legitimate question, not a poke in the eye.
Will the warning light, for the pump, still work if the pig tail snags and fails?

Bill

driftless shifter said:

This is a legitimate question, not a poke in the eye.
Will the warning light, for the pump, still work if the pig tail snags and fails?

Bill

Click to expand...

Yes, Bill, the alarm does sound in that situation, just as it sounds if you switch on in the coach without plugging in the cable at all. And if the cable is connected, but you forget to turn on the control switch in the coach, the alarm also sounds when you turn on the ignition switch.

To the original poster:

Based on all of the posts in this thread, I think you have all of the major opinions from both sides of the discussion.  Each one is firmly convinced that their way is the right way to go. None of us can tell the absolute best way to go, you have to decide for yourself.
Good luck and let us know what you decide.

Well, I have gone 180 degrees after starting to add up what it would cost to flat tow the T & C. - $3,500.00, and at this time can't justify it.  Also, have a lifetime warranty on the drive train, and putting a external lube pump on the tranny may kill it, as the manual states "RECREATIONAL TOWING FOR THIS VEHICLE IS NOT RECOMMENDED".  "NOTE:  If the vehicle requires towing make sure all four wheels are off the ground."  Have been practicing more with the Rover towing the Tow Dolly in the driveway, and I can get it pretty much where I need it to expend very little physical effort to connect to the coach.  Also, have been practicing with loading/unloading the T & C on the Tow Dolly and feel that I'm down to 20 minutes or less. Will be going around the country come March, so should get a lot of practice and will probably rethink when the trip is over sometime in June.  Amazing what $3K + will do to your thinking.

Does flat towing reduce gas mileage on RV and increase tire wear on towed vehicle?
(newbie RV'r here)
Would love to have my little '08 Elantra w/me 

Yes to both questions. All towing reduces your mileage to the Rv somewhat and flat towing will increase tire wear as compared to what is on the odometer of the toad. I purchased a CRV like most because it is very simple to flat tow and I needed a vehicle for around town. I have now toed the CRV more miles than what is on the odometer and am considering tires this next season. My CRV causes a loss of app. 1 MPG vs. my 18' enclosed trlr I used to tow which would kill my MPG by 1-2 easy depending on my loaded weight. Everything has a price but I much prefer the CRV 4 down over anything else I have considered. I also found the best price for tow bars and Air Force one by asking for a package price through PPL  http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv_parts_rv_accessories.htm 
I did all the installation so can't compare labor on that, good luck.