Need replacement for Workhorse 8.1 L engine

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morefun said:
When I called ColawRV they only had one 8.1L Workhorse engine (65,000 miles).  I guess they don't update their web site very often as it showed several, and didn't show the one he was talking about.

I'm a bit nervous about having the local RV shop try to "fix" my engine.  There are so many stories about poor longblock remanufacturers that I don't know who to trust to rebuild it.  In addition, when the engine started acting up I was on I-81 in New York State on my way to Florida.  I was in the middle of nowhere and since the engine ran fine once I got the RV moving, I continued on to Florida - more than 1,200 miles.  As a result I am concerned about where all the bits and pieces might have gone - places that aren't so obvious like the bearings, so I am hesitant about the idea of "fixing it".  How far do I go - one new piston would not be enough, but how many other things would I have to replace?. 

However you make a good point that I should get an estimate on the cost to repair it, which will of course be higher in labor and lower in parts.

So it seems there are 4 possible solutions:
1) Repair my engine
2) Buy a used workhorse engine of approximately the same year.
3) Buy a used GM 8.1 L engine
4) Buy a longblock

I have time before I need the repair, but I am also living in the RV, which makes getting it fixed problematic.

Well I would assume of you have the Motor fixed you would have them replace the one piston that is bad and check that rod. Then you have the motor completely disassembled and have the parts checked for internal damage from debris.Have the block hot tanked then all new bearings and freeze plugs have the cylinders rehoned new rings and bearings motor would be 100% fresh and would still have less than a new one from dealer
 
Only Issue would be if you damaged a cylinder wall and would need to bore the motor which would require a new set of pistons
 
PCarillon said:
Well I would assume of you have the Motor fixed you would have them replace the one piston that is bad and check that rod. Then you have the motor completely disassembled and have the parts checked for internal damage from debris.Have the block hot tanked then all new bearings and freeze plugs have the cylinders rehoned new rings and bearings motor would be 100% fresh and would still have less than a new one from dealer

Totally agree. There are that many parts in the bottom end, and any competent engine builder is going to check each of them. The heads should be safe since the oil filter would prevent anything from the sump getting up there. Getting the bottom end right isn't rocket science - lots of details, but nothing difficult. Maybe the place servicing your RV isn't the right place to do this work - I'd buy into that - but surely there is a good engine shop in your town or near enough to engage for the job.
 
Unless I missed it, the one question I would have is what caused #2 to hole out? Sounds good to just replace the necessary parts and move on but not if there is some factor going to cause it to happen again, there or another cylinder.

44K+ on the clock tells me something had to cause it that is more recent and not just a part failure. JMO
 
Daffy said:
Unless I missed it, the one question I would have is what caused #2 to hole out? Sounds good to just replace the necessary parts and move on but not if there is some factor going to cause it to happen again, there or another cylinder.

44K+ on the clock tells me something had to cause it that is more recent and not just a part failure. JMO
My thoughts exactly.

I would have a reputable mechanic look at it.  You may not need an engine at all just a better mechanic.
 
Go on E-Bay and look at the 8.1's there  http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=8.1+chevy+engine
Depending on where you are at you can probably get one shipped to you for around $500.00 or less and it is out of a running vehicle. Check the mileage but all the dropouts come complete. Huge range of prices.
 
Going back to what I said before. Look in the bad cylinder with a Bore scope and see how bad the damage is. Unless you have a deeply scored cylinder wall it should be just pull that head and change that piston. Hone the cylinder walls and go camping. Any chunks that came off the piston will be in the pan.
I would do a analysis to determine why you holed a piston in the first place. Do you have a tuner?
Bill
 
You can't just pull a head and change a piston. The oil pan has to come off to disconnect the connecting rod in order to push pull the piston out of the bore. If you crawl under the rig and look you'll most likely see that there are obstructions making it necessary to undo motor mounts, probably transmission mounts, and lift the engine and that's if you have the clearance above the engine and tranny to lift high enough. A qualified mechanic is not going to want the job and an unqualified one will make a mess of it.

Bill
 
driftless shifter said:
You can't just pull a head and change a piston. The oil pan has to come off to disconnect the connecting rod in order to push pull the piston out of the bore. If you crawl under the rig and look you'll most likely see that there are obstructions making it necessary to undo motor mounts, probably transmission mounts, and lift the engine and that's if you have the clearance above the engine and tranny to lift high enough. A qualified mechanic is not going to want the job and an unqualified one will make a mess of it.

Bill
Yes of corse you have to pull the pan. I was just skimming over it. You forgot the intake and exhaust manifold on that side. Simple enough to take the front motor mount loose and jack the engine to get clearance.
Still easier, cheaper and faster than pulling the engine.
Like I said look and see how bad the damage looks. If it is bad you will have to pull it.
Bill 
 
As many have suggested, I'm going to the look into the possibility of repairing the engine.  Certainly the cost would be significantly lower than replacing it.  However there is some risk that we might miss something and the lifetime of the engine might be shorter than a replacement.  I'd like to keep it for another 2-3 years, which equates to another 25,000 miles.

To evaluate the condition of the engine the shop will scope all of the cylinders, do a compression test on all to make sure the valves and head gaskets are OK, and send an oil sample out to be tested to see what might have happened (I'm not sure what this can tell us).

I am of the opinion that excessive heat was the principle cause of the failure as the Holiday Rambler design of the coach around the engine gives very little room for air to flow directly onto it and also they force all the air through the radiator by blocking the gaps around it that would have allowed some cooler air to reach the engine (I'm unsure if this is a problem or is supposed to be a solution).  Last year I had the engine losing power and we found the the spark plugs and wires were burnt (others have commented on this) so we replaced both.

There are a number of other comments that could be related to my holed piston and overheating:
> Workhorse developed a "ventilation Kit" that directs outside air around the radiator to the exhaust manifolds ($483), and a number of people have installed their own ($25 from Lowe's).
> A number of people have experienced warped exhaust manifolds and broken manifold bolts.
> There are also many comments about engine deposits caused by the use of ethanol gasoline, and the use of TECHRON concentrate to clean the engine.
> Several comments about the inaccuracy of the engine temperature gauge and/or sensor.

I'll keep you posted.
 
"> There are also many comments about engine deposits caused by the use of ethanol gasoline, and the use of TECHRON concentrate to clean the engine."

Anyone who says this does not know what they are talking about.  Not only will ethanol blended gasoline not cause deposits, it will more than likely clean any existing deposits caused by running regular gasoline.

A burned piston is more often that not caused by the engine running "lean"
 
I agree running lean will make it run hot and cause damage. Perhaps a bad knock sensor?
You will want all the air to go through the radiator to make shure it runes cool. Adding cooling will help keep plug wires safe and manifolds from warping. Do a search there are many plans and wright ups about how to do it. One other component that is helped by good air flow is the alternator. Wrapping the exhaust manifolds will reduce under hood temperatures.
Let us know what you find out.
Bill
 
In the case of a single holed piston I would look at something like fuel injector or, if it's a piston at the end of the fuel rail fuel pressure. A clogged injector is quite likely IME.
 
I agree that a plugged fuel injector could be part or all of the problem, and I'll certainly replace it.  Maybe I should replace all of them?  The hole is in #2 piston, which is right at the front of the engine.  The temperature gauge has never moved from the middle position (when engine is hot), since I bought it 3 years ago.  So i don't think the engine internally was overheating in that sense.  However I have also read negative comments about the reliability of the gauge. 

I'm not familiar with the process of wrapping the exhaust manifolds to reduce the temperatures, I was only thinking of increasing the airflow. 

To clarify my comment about ethanol, it does clean existing deposits in the tank and fuel lines, however the gunk has to go somewhere an can end up plugging the fuel filter or the fuel injectors.  Since my RV is a 2004 model and has had two owners before me, I don't know the condition of the fuel system, except to note that I suspect the fuel filter has never been changed as it is one of the original Workhorse "special" designed filter.  I have a new filter (with adapter) that will be installed.

I am thinking of buying a ScanGauge II to get a better idea of what is going on in the engine in the future. 
 
Couple things:

You can send the injectors off to be tested/cleaned, which in light of circumstances would make sense. OTOH, if you have a friendly Ford dealer nearby you can typically source new Ford injectors for around $25ea. That's what I pay for 19# and 24# Ford Motorsport injectors in sets of eight. I'll bet the 8.1l actually uses one of those sizes, or something very close. But, even their 36# injectors are only $32, so not a big deal. Personally, I would be sorely tempted to have the injectors tested *anyway*, just to see if they could be the culprit. I don't deal well with unexplained failures. :)

I would personally not wrap your exhaust manifold. I know lots of people do it and don't have problems, but exhaust wraps don't last forever and I imagine replacing would be a pain. Exhaust wraps can cause manifold cracking under certain excessive heat circumstances, which is also rare but also a pain! Finally, they trap moisture and can lead to rust (not to mentioned premature wrap failure), which also would be a pain. If you'd like to reduce heat, I'd strongly encourage pulling the manifolds and sending them to Swain or Jethot et al for ceramic coating. It's typically about $150 per part and you get a coating that lasts pretty much forever. Additionally, the coating is applied *inside* the manifold, so unlike exhaust wrap the heat stays inside the manifold, rather than trapped inside the wrap, cooking the metal. On an installed engine, wrap is a convenience and there are pros and cons to weigh, but if the engine is out and manifolds off, there is zero reason not to coat them if you're looking for some thermal management.

I don't know much about the V10 electronics, but on a 2004 I would expect only one temp sensor for both the gauge and the ECM, so what you're seeing on the gauge is probably what the ECM is seeing. A Scanguage puts numbers to it, but 5 or 10 degrees variance just isn't going to make a difference... not the point you cause engine damage, anyway. It would be very quick to tell how close they are with a one-time read on an OBDII tool. All that isn't to say I wouldn't buy a Scangauge - they're super handy to be sure - just there may be other approaches too. :) If you're interested in a Scangauge, I'd personally recommend taking a hard look at the Ultragauge. I think it's an equal product and quite a bit cheaper. I use one in my Jag as the factory gauge only has three positions - cold, not cold, and too late. Rather annoying, especially when the cooling fan relay fails.

On the subject, once the motor is back in, you might want to monitor fuel pressure for a while. I'm not sure if the 2004 V10 has a fuel pressure sensor like most newer cars do, but I'd really suspect a fueling issue as the source of the failure. It's certainly possible low pressure just killed #2 first, randomly. I'd definitely want to keep my eye on that. You could of course use a mechanical gauge off the test port, but that's rather inconvenient. Installing a digital sensor while everything is apart would seem like a good investment to me.

 
Good thought about having the injector for cylinder #2 tested.  I agree completely with the need to find out why the piston burned.

As far as the ScanGauge II goes, unfortunately I just ordered one an hour ago.  However RVupgrade had a really good price of $80 (other sources were $155+), which is close to the price of the Ultragauge.  Apparently Ultragauge has a new wireless version that connects via Bluetooth to your cell phone, which would have been nice and it's the same price as the ScanGuage II I just bought.  By the way my engine is a 2004 chevy 8.1L V8.

I had never heard of the ceramic coating idea.  It sounds like an easy way to reduce the engine compartment temperatures, although if I go for a repair we may not have to pull the engine completely.  I'll definitely look into that too though.  I do plan to install the air duct system, which others have done with success.

You may be right about the temperature sensor feeding both the gauge and the ECM.  I am really suspicious about the reading on the temperature gauge as it never moves regardless of the outside temperature or the stress the engine is under.  I am hoping the "problem" is with the gauge rather than the ECM so that the ScanGauge could tell the truth.
 
ROFL - no idea where I pulled V10 out of. I think my mind wandered. :D

Could be your temp gauge is like a lot of modern cars where "normal" is a huge range from 160 degrees to 240 degrees. That's how it behaves on my Jag. You can tell when the engine is cold, and you can tell when not, but not much more. A lot of manufacturers do gauges this way to prevent hypochondriac cars owners from complaining "My car is running too hot." I totally get it, but it really messes up the folks that aren't looking at specific numbers but rather trends. Most vehicle owners aren't that attentive, but it sure could have saved me some grief if I saw the Jag's temp increasing steadily. :(

If you've got a setup like this, typically the ECM knows the correct engine temp as its used for mixture control. It's either communication to the gauge or construction of the gauge itself that registers a wide range of temps as a "middle gauge position." The ECM will definitely know the exact, precise temp and the OBDII reader will report it. That's why I bought the Ultragauge - it reads the ECM so I'll know if the fan relay has failed again. :|

Ceramic coating is super cool - I use it on all my turbo cars as it really reduces underhood temps and helps cast manifolds (got those pesky California smog laws!) deal with super-high EGTs. If you go shopping, be sure you read the fine print - lots of companies sells "high temp coatings" as ceramic, and they're not. I'm making this up, but just because it's called "ceracote" doesn't mean it's ceramic. Those high temp coatings look nice but offer no actual benefit. You're looking for an actual ceramic-type coating that is a heat reflector/barrier. Those are the only ones worth anything.

Speaking of, if you want to go nuts there are solutions for in-cylinder ceramic coatings. Like, coat your pistons, heads, and valve faces. Crazy stuff! :)
 
morefun said:
Good thought about having the injector for cylinder #2 tested.  I agree completely with the need to find out why the piston burned.

As far as the ScanGauge II goes, unfortunately I just ordered one an hour ago.  However RVupgrade had a really good price of $80 (other sources were $155+), which is close to the price of the Ultragauge.  Apparently Ultragauge has a new wireless version that connects via Bluetooth to your cell phone, which would have been nice and it's the same price as the ScanGuage II I just bought.  By the way my engine is a 2004 chevy 8.1L V8.

I had never heard of the ceramic coating idea.  It sounds like an easy way to reduce the engine compartment temperatures, although if I go for a repair we may not have to pull the engine completely.  I'll definitely look into that too though.  I do plan to install the air duct system, which others have done with success.

You may be right about the temperature sensor feeding both the gauge and the ECM.  I am really suspicious about the reading on the temperature gauge as it never moves regardless of the outside temperature or the stress the engine is under.  I am hoping the "problem" is with the gauge rather than the ECM so that the ScanGauge could tell the truth.

When I was bringing my coach home a few weeks ago, it was cold out and the temp gauge never went about 160. The heater was working marginally, was a cold trip home but I didn't want to run the furnace. After we got home I put my scan tool on the coach and the temp the ecm sees is different than what the gauge reads, by about 40 degrees. They may actually have 2 different sensors, not sure, but I'm not going to look in to it till spring. If the engine actually burned a hole in the piston, I would replace all the injectors, and the 02 sensors. If the 02 sensors weren't reading right, it may have leaned itself out too much, and that cylinder may have been leaner than the others. I too would rebuild the currant engine if that cylinder isn't damaged too badly. Is the hole in the center of the piston or on the side?
 
Paul & Ann said:
"> There are also many comments about engine deposits caused by the use of ethanol gasoline, and the use of TECHRON concentrate to clean the engine."

Anyone who says this does not know what they are talking about.  Not only will ethanol blended gasoline not cause deposits, it will more than likely clean any existing deposits caused by running regular gasoline.

A burned piston is more often that not caused by the engine running "lean"

I agree Paul. Ethanol didn't cause this burn down, unless he put E85 in it by mistake. To really find out what actually happened is going to just be a guess, unless he does find a plugged injector. Not to sure on a truck engine but my Corvette will even set a check engine light if it has a misfire, and it's a 99.
 
You are less likely to burn a piston with E-85 than you are with E-10 as alcohol burns cooler than gasoline, the higher percentage of alcohol you run, the cooler the engine runs.
 

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