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Author Topic: Why not to believe the sales staff  (Read 5716 times)

grashley

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Why not to believe the sales staff
« on: January 10, 2016, 09:35:24 PM »
You have often heard advise to not believe sales people at either the car lot or the RV lot.  Both have a vested interest in selling you something, and NO vested interest in making the weights safe or legal.  Here is a hypothetical example of what happens if you trust the sales staff.

DISCLAMER: I use a Ford Explorer and Keystone Bullet in this example.  THEY ARE FINE PRODUCTS WHOSE CAPACITIES FIT THIS EXAMPLE.  The point is what happens when these fine products are paired together.

Car Lot:  Sure, this Explorer with the Tow Package and 3.9L V6 FWD is a GREAT  tow vehicle!  It can EASILY handle a 5,000# travel trailer!  NO PROBLEM!!
FACT  This SUV, equipped as above is rated to tow 5,000#.  500# max tongue wt.  The curb wt is 4443#  and     GCVWR of 9950#  (GVWR not readily available)

RV lot:  Ignore the GVWR.  Nobody ever puts that much weight in their camper!  Just look at the dry or shipping weight.  You will be fine.
That Bullet  251RBSWE is a great camper!  Lots of room and UNDER 5000#!!  You will LOVE it!!
FACT   This TT has a Shipping wt of 4980#, dry tongue wt of 500# and Cargo Carrying Capacity is a generous 2520#

Your new Explorer CAN handle this Bullet - as long as you add nothing to the camper and leave the family at home.  GCVWR of empty camper plus a hitch and a SUV with just a driver and one passenger  is 9523#  Rated GCVW is 9950#.  You have 427# left.

Take the new TT and SUV home.  Add 2520# of propane, water, food, sheets, towels, clothing and a coffee pot to the camper.
GROSS CAMPER WEIGHT is now 7500#.

Pack the car with mom, dad and 4 kids (4 x 150#  +  2 x 100# = 800#) plus 300# of food, game systems, drinks, etc.  Add the WD hitch at 100#  Put the 750# tongue on the hitch.  READY TO GO CAMPING !!!!

The loaded SUV now weighs 6400#  The TT tongue weight of 750#  is 50% above rated capacity.  The loaded camper is now 7500#, or 50% above rated capacity.  The total weight of the SUV and TT is 13,150# which is 3200# over GCVWR, more than 30% above rated capacity.

HAPPY CAMPING!!
Preacher Gordon
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS - not yet received
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
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John From Detroit

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2016, 07:44:38 AM »
I have said this before, and I have been a salesman (though not cars, trucks or RVs)

To a salesman there is one, and only one problem... NO SALE.
Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business
My Home is where I park it.

Josh Griffith

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2016, 11:01:52 AM »
When we bought our trailer I had concerns with the available payload of my TV and the hitch weight of the trailer.  The salesman told me payload didn't matter and with the WD hitch I would be carrying zero weight from the trailer.  I was and still am new to towing but even at that time I knew he was full of it.

Frizlefrak

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2016, 01:32:24 PM »
Sooner or later, it's going to happen. 

There is going to be a fatality that can be traced to an overloaded tow vehicle and trailer.  The family of the deceased will go looking for answers, with the help of legal counsel.  The tow vehicle manufacturers lawyers will be quick to point out that the limitations of said vehicle (clearly spelled out on placards and literature) were intentionally exceeded.  The trailer manufacturers lawyers will be quick to point out that the tow vehicle was massively undersized based on the stated weights of the trailer (clearly printed on the placard).  It will come to light that a novice customer was told "NO PROBLEM" by the RV dealership....because somebody was "rolling tape" with their cell phone at the time the customer was told this.

A large settlement will be achieved, and a precedent will be set.
2014 Ram 2500 Cummins
2012 Palomino 30' TT

Frizlefrak

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2016, 01:32:57 PM »
When we bought our trailer I had concerns with the available payload of my TV and the hitch weight of the trailer.  The salesman told me payload didn't matter and with the WD hitch I would be carrying zero weight from the trailer.  I was and still am new to towing but even at that time I knew he was full of it.

That's bordering on criminally negligent.
2014 Ram 2500 Cummins
2012 Palomino 30' TT

Josh Griffith

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2016, 01:55:55 PM »
The salesman had one of the mechanics call me to explain the WD hitch and why payload didn't matter but the mechanic totally contradicted the salesman and said my understanding and interprutation of the weight ratings was correct. We were right at the max even with the WD hitch, which doesn't redistribute 100% of the weight back to the trailer just in case someone else hears that same line of BS.

Timster

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2016, 08:11:24 PM »
I have 2 RV sales lots where I am. One has 2 locations here in the southeast  Dick Gore's RV and the other is Camping World. We already owned our SUV for a number of years.

Dick Gore's Sales people where very helpful and made sure to locate and confirm the tow capacity ratings of our SUV and made it clear that they are in no way going to let us purchase something that would put our safety in jeopardy. They showed us our options which where well below towing capacity of our SUV.

Camping World salesman walked over and took one look at our SUV and without even researching our towing capacity closed the door in our face. Below is a exact quote from the salesman:
"There is no RV that you can pull with that vehicle. You will loose control easily. Your RV will flip over and so will your SUV."

In the end Dick Gore's sold us a very nice Aspen Trail 1400RB. That is a 14' RV rated at 3500lbs that our tow vehicle handles very nicely. Been on several trips even to the Appalachian Mountains. Tow vehicle is a Nissan Exterra v6. We knew we could not get a large RV because of the tow vehicle but we wanted to have something that was not a pop up. We are very happy with what we chose and Dick Gore's made sure we where going to be safe at the same time. I wish all RV sales companies had this mentality.

Here is a pic of our RV and tow vehicle
*2013 1400RB Aspen Trail Travel Trailer
*TV: Nissan Exterra
*Home: Savannah GA
http://www.TimsComputerFix.net
Love RV Adventures

Houston Remodeler

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2016, 08:59:01 PM »
I jokingly asked my local CW how many accidents there were when newbies pulled out of the driveway. He responded,

"They should park a tow truck down the block"
2015 Starcraft Launch 24RLS
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Kevin n Maggie

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2016, 11:15:04 AM »
Our local RV store told my husband and I that we would be perfectly fine, with sway bars, towing a Keystone Summerland 2980BHGS 32'7", weight 6328#, hitch 715#, CC 3187# with either our F150 4x4 Crew cab or our 2003 Chevy Tahoe. I didn't feel comfortable even if we were "right at our max" as the salesman tried to laugh it off, "but you'll be fine with sway bars" he added. We didn't make that purchase. We felt we needed a bigger tow vehicle for that size TT to feel safe.

A few years back, a close friend was pulling a 26ft TT with their 2002 Ford Explorer 2wd Sport. I always wondered if that vehicle was enough to tow their TT. They flipped it on I75 as a Semi merged onto the interstate beside them. Totaled the TT and Explorer both. Thankfully everyone was buckled and only had bumps and bruises. They bought another camper (smaller) and a F150.

Last year, a family pulled in to our local RV store to pick up their brand new 37' TT (not sure of the weight). The family had also just purchased a 2015 Chevy Tahoe. They were all packed up for camping, including (I believe it was six or seven) people in that Tahoe. Two miles down the interstate they flipped it. Two of the passengers ended up in the hospital. The young mother who came out with just bumps and bruises made a statement on the news about how the RV place didn't hook up the sway bars/brakes correctly. It was their first camper and relied on the RV store to get them hooked up correctly and told them that they were fine with their SUV with that size TT. Many people chimed in (online response to article) how they should never have pulled that big of a camper with that SUV. Luckily everyone got to leave the hospital within a week, but it ruined their brand new TT and Tahoe.

Since these things happened I've been trying to pay very close attention to those RV weights and limits as we shopped for our TT. I thank all of you here for posting information and giving advice on this.

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2016, 12:25:13 PM »
Those two examples are exactly the reason us members of "the weight police" advise owners to stay under the max weihgt ratings. Especially if inexperienced. You can hook at a max tow load and everything seems OK until something arises to push the rig beyond the usual, e.g. that truck's powerful wind patterns, or some emergency maneuver. Then a borderline OK changes swiftly to out-of-control and people get hurt. My wife and I survived one of those ourselves, so we are believers!
Gary
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Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

Frizlefrak

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2016, 02:08:10 PM »
Those two examples are exactly the reason us members of "the weight police" advise owners to stay under the max weihgt ratings. Especially if inexperienced.

Exactly.

And the people who wind up (unknowingly) in a overloaded scenario are usually newbies.  In two exact emergency scenarios, where an experienced RV'er might be able to gather up the rig and keep the shiny side up, an inexperienced person might not.  I'm a FIRM believer in "too much truck", especially for the novice at towing.  Having a tow vehicle with capabilities well beyond what you're towing gives you a cushion of safety.....a margin of error beyond what a marginal setup will.  The same trailer is a lot less likely to walk a 3500 all over the highway than a medium sized SUV.  Not saying you need an F350 dually to pull a 23' 5000 lbs trailer, but you should allow at least a 20% margin of safety below the maximum, and take every pound loaded into the tow vehicle into consideration and deduct it from the equation. 

Yes, I'm a lieutenant in the Weight Police.  In 25 years of towing, I've never wrecked one either.
2014 Ram 2500 Cummins
2012 Palomino 30' TT

Rancher Will

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2016, 01:54:35 PM »
I am not a salesman but am a Ranch, Trucking Business owner. I have also owned five RV's since 1960 along wit dozens of trucks, trailers, machinery, etc.

Over the years some of my employees, and numerous others have asked my opinion about their pending purchase of RV trucks and RV Trailers. My advice has always been, "you will never be sorry that you had too much power". so far none of them ever told me that my advice was not good.

Jennifercks

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2016, 02:13:54 PM »
Honestly, this is one of those instances where "there ought to be a law."

I don't know why people so frequently set aside their own common sense, go against their own best interests, and take off with a huge trailer behind a tiny truck (or SUV). I will never understand it.

The saddest story that I know of personally, not from the news, is a lady who insisted she could pull her two-horse trailer with her SUV. She went on a horse forum all the time and wrote things like, "If you listen to everyone on this forum, you will buy a one-horse trailer and pull it with an F350 dually. Not necessary! I pull my two-horse, fully loaded, with a Ford Explorer and have never had any problems."

Now mind you, this is a very nice lady and experienced horse person. She loved her horses, she really did. And my heart broke when she came online to tell us that she'd had an accident on the interstate when a semi blew by her and flipped her fully-loaded two-horse and lost both of her friends in a horrific manner right there on the highway. I could only imagine her pain and grief every time she went out to the barn and had to face those empty stalls. Those boys had no choice about the trailer or the tow vehicle -- they walked willingly on board, trusting that she would never put them in danger. She failed them, and they paid the gruesome price.

Why oh why do people take short cuts on something so very important? Why would you put yourself, your beloved spouse, your children and/or your friends in harm's way just to save some money? I know that salesmen give false information, but I also know that every one of us has a gut feeling and the sense enough to know better.
Traveling with Sherlock, the diva German Shepherd

2016 Forest River Wildwood 30KQBSS
& 2012 F350 with 6.7L diesel

AbdRahim

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2016, 07:20:30 PM »
Problem is newbie, doesn't know any of this stuff, and gets bamboozled.

grashley

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2016, 04:32:41 PM »
Problem is newbie, doesn't know any of this stuff, and gets bamboozled.

That is exactly why I wrote this!  Thanks for the confirmation.
Preacher Gordon
09 Grand Junction 35 TMS - not yet received
2013 F350 Lariat LB SRW Supercab diesel 4X4
Nimrod Series 70 popup (sold)
It's not a dumb question if you do not know the answer.

jackiemac

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2016, 09:42:04 AM »
That is exactly why I wrote this!  Thanks for the confirmation.

Thanks!  Everyone's help on here ensured we didn't make a mistake with our tow vehicle.
Jackie n Steve - Happy Scottish Travellers

2017 Heartland Sundance 288rls
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8th May to 30th October 2017 - Touring Western US

Bill N

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2016, 04:05:24 PM »
Actually the CW salesman did you a favor.  He did NOT try to sell you something that would be totally out of line with your weight limitations.  Usually the complaints are that someone was sold something that was unsafe.  Not sure if he had a TT that would fit your weight requirements and he did not pursue a sale when perhaps he could have made more of an effort to do so.
Bill & Joan N in Missouri
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flite

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2016, 12:32:24 AM »
Can someone help me figure out if we can tow the TT we're looking at? The trailer in question is a Coachmen Apex Ultra Lite 289TBSS with a weight of 5700#.

Here's some info I got off our 2011 Chevy Tahoe and the weight of the hitch was suggested on another post: http://www.towingplanner.com/Calculators/TowingPayloadEstimate/?ccc=1628&dw=250&pw=280&hw=80&tc=100&m=800&ct=TT

What other info do I need to get?
2013 F350 Super Duty Diesel
2016 Cougar 28RBS TT

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2016, 11:50:56 AM »
First of all, your weight is way off. A 289TBSS weighs in at more like 7600 lbs than 5700. It's 5720 only when it leaves the factory, and that's without any options. You don't tow an empty trailer, so you have to figure on towing the trailer gross weight (7600 fully loaded), not the dry or empty weight.

In that tow planner, is the 800# "miscellaneous" you entered supposed to be the trailer tongue weight estimate? If not, you aren't even close to being OK. Further, the brawniest 2007 Tahoe has a max trailer tow rating of 7700 lbs (5.3LV8, 4.10 rear axle, 4WD) and most are in the 6000-7000 lb range, so that trailer is marginal at best even if the payload works out. You need to get into a Suburban or Yukon XL to tow that size trailer.
Gary
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Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

flite

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2016, 04:02:23 AM »
Ok, so always use the max capacity weight of a fully loaded trailer, gotcha.

The 800# was tongue weight in my calculations.

It's a 2011 Tahoe, not 2007. It's definitely rated to tow 8200#. We're also adding airbag helpers in the back that supposedly add 1000# to your total towing capacity. So we'd be at 9200#.

So if we go with an 20% safety margin margin, that'd be 7360# of the 9200# available.

Am I now adding the weight of my family, the tow hitch and the tongue weight to the fully loaded trailer weight of 7600#?
2013 F350 Super Duty Diesel
2016 Cougar 28RBS TT

kdbgoat

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2016, 06:43:30 AM »
Airbags DO NOT increase towing or payload capacity, every air bag manufacturer states that in their literature. They only help carry the load that is within the vehicle manufacturers specifications. The only way to increase the carrying or towing capacity is have an engineer re-rate the complete vehicle after modifications. It would be cheaper to buy a trailer that meets the specs or buy a bigger truck.
I know you believe you understand what you think I said,
But I am not sure you realize what you heard is not what I meant


2016 Leprechaun 319DS

Skeeter!

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2016, 06:45:43 PM »
Airbags DO NOT increase towing or payload capacity, every air bag manufacturer states that in their literature. They only help carry the load that is within the vehicle manufacturers specifications. The only way to increase the carrying or towing capacity is have an engineer re-rate the complete vehicle after modifications. It would be cheaper to buy a trailer that meets the specs or buy a bigger truck.

Absolutely correct about adding airbags. They do nothing to increase your towing capacity. They will help you level out the tow vehicle once the tongue weight (or hitch weight of a 5'vr) is loaded onto the vehicle.
Michael & Cindy - RV Noobs!
2014 Ram 2500 6.4L HEMI

henkelphoto

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2016, 10:04:18 PM »
I had some fun a few days ago. I wanted to look at some trailers at a dealership and went in there as if I knew absolutely nothing about towing and trailers (not far from the truth actually!).

Anyway, the dealer asked me what truck I had and looked up the max towing weight, which is 9180 for my truck. He didn't ask any other questions about the truck such as what my payload was listed at, what and who would be in the truck, would I be boondocking, or anything else. Every trailer he showed me was about 26-28 feet, which is much longer than the 20-23 feet I suggested I was interested in. One that was actually very nice, was a 27 foot unit with one slide and a dry weight of 5600 lbs. GVW was about 7400 lbs. I guess I could pull it with my truck, but I wouldn't be comfortable with it. Of course, he said it would be no problem at all.
Dodge Ram 1500
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Russ+Chris

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2016, 10:21:23 PM »
Airbags DO NOT increase towing or payload capacity, every air bag manufacturer states that in their literature. They only help carry the load that is within the vehicle manufacturers specifications. The only way to increase the carrying or towing capacity is have an engineer re-rate the complete vehicle after modifications. It would be cheaper to buy a trailer that meets the specs or buy a bigger truck.
Agree! If you in an accident. And they weight you. You still have to be under on what the door sticker says. Air bags will not count for the extra weight you are carrying.
Russ and Chris (Both retired)
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glen54737

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2016, 07:04:02 AM »
Agree! If you in an accident. And they weight you. You still have to be under on what the door sticker says. Air bags will not count for the extra weight you are carrying.
Unlikely that they will weigh you or the pieces.
 
Bottom line is that the Driver is responsible for safe operation of the vehicle. Like ensuring that it is not overloaded.
This is the sole responsibility ovf the driver no one else, not the salesman or people on this forum or your neighbor.
You must do your own research and determine what is a safe load.
2018 Thor Miramar 35.2
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Glen,Nene
Mickey & Jayco (yorkies)

flite

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Re: Why not to believe the sales staff
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2016, 03:02:52 PM »
Oh boy, have we come a loooooong way from my original post.

We ended up buying a 2013 f350 super duty diesel and a 2016 cougar 28RBS. Yay! No worries about towing safety now :)
2013 F350 Super Duty Diesel
2016 Cougar 28RBS TT

 

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