Converting to Lithium Ion batteries ????

I'm seeing Roadtrek now offering a super boondocking RV with a load of Lithium Ion batteries and tons of solar.  The reference to being able to quickly charge the batteries from the van generator (if solar isn't enough) is also positive.

Can an older RV with standard lead acid batteries be converted to Lithium Ion?  What would it require?

I'm guessing there are plus and minuses.  Thoughts?

I didn't see an existing thread on this or related topic but point me if I've just cluttered the forum with a duplicate topic.

Thanks

Lithium charges faster, can be partially charged without damage, can withstand substantial discharge, and weigh a fraction of comparable lead acid. The only negative of which I'm aware is cost - big bucks.

Lithium Ion batteries have a much lower charging resistance so you have to more closely monitor the charging voltage and how much current is being stuffed into the pack.  When discharging, the batteries stay at an almost constant voltage until they're discharged then their voltage drops like a rock.  You have to monitor the individual cell voltages and disconnect the battery before the first cell drops to zero voltage or it will be damaged as the remaining cells continue pumping reverse current through it.

Fortunately, these conditions are handled by the controller that's included as part of the battery pack.  So it's just a matter of hooking it up and making sure the charging voltage is within spec.

Take a look at Technomadia's web site.  They're early adopters and have a couple of years experience with their lithium ion battery pack.

http://lithionicsbattery.com/portable-power/

These folks have also been in the field for a few years,  I almost became a sales rep for them.  There is no downside to the battery if you can afford them.

Too "rich" for my blood.

I agree they are pricy but a battery that compares to a 50 something pound DEKA Group 31 is only 30 pounds.

That (Less weight) could be a factor.    Still. as Denmarc said.. "Too rich for my budget"

But if Publisher's clearhing house rings my doorbell.... I'll look you up.

Bobtop46 said:

http://lithionicsbattery.com/portable-power/

These folks have also been in the field for a few years,  I almost became a sales rep for them.  There is no downside to the battery if you can afford them.

Click to expand...

Just had a nice chat with these folks, just a curiosity/info call.

Basic, they have a 12V, 480AH Lithium that sells for roughly $5K including battery management system. They have had this battery in the field in an RV for about 5 years, getting cycled down to about 5% routinely (so VERY heavy usage). After 5 years battery has degraded to about 80%; they figure they have about one more year of life.

These field users previously had AGMs which they were only getting two years out of (again, I think they are cycling the daylights out of them). Compared to Li-ion they're now getting triple the life, so from their perspective they might be close to breakeven.

Generator run times are substantially less as batteries can take a full charge almost until full. Even so, cost is still triple lead acid so seems like it will be quite awhile before Li-ion is tempting for those getting more life out of their lead acids.

Something I just thought of...

Isn't the battery in the Chevrolet Volt a Lithium Ion battery? GM has had a couple of their Volts catch fire while just sitting doing nothing.
I handle auto parts every night and I do know for a fact the Lithium Ion batteries I deliver all have a big sicker on the box stating not allowed on passenger airplanes. Cargo planes only.

Not sure I could get any sleep being in a RV on top a battery bank of these. At least until they convince me I won't get BBQ'ed. 

Don't hold that smart phone too close, cause it has lithium ion batteries too. Laptop computers too. And lead acid battery are known to catch fire or explode as well.

Any Lithium ion battery is susceptible to overcharging (excessive charge current) and that can result in overheating and a fire. The charge controller that Lou described is supposed to prevent that by managing the charge current properly.  I'm not saying that management technique has been perfected, though.  ???  Or that some people have not applied too much current in some other way. 

Pretty much all electric and hybrid vehicles use lithium ion batteries and Tesla is building a billion dollar factory to produce them in quantity.

Gary, not disputing anything. But my last post doesn't involve any charging voltage being applied. Flooded battery fires are typically caused by another ignition source if not being charged at the time. So why are the brand new Lithium batteries (even the tiny ones used in fobs) not allowed on passenger air liners?
I'm thinking insurance reasons.

BTW...I don't own a smart phone. Have a problem having a phone that's smarter than me.  ;D

Interesting conversation.  I took Lou's advice and went to Technomadia's site. I haven't dug in deep, but I skimmed some of their write-ups.  Looks like right now they wouldn't necessarily recommend the lithium product over a good AGM battery bank.

Any time you store a lot of power in a small area there are ways it can get loose and do bad things.  Don't forget what can happen if you short out or generate a spark near the lead acid batteries we've all been using for decades.  Not to mention the explosive potential in the gas, diesel and propane tanks we all carry.

Heck, I'm surprised anyone can get a good night's sleep in an RV.   

Lithium cells are no different, you have to be aware of their dangers and plan accordingly.

I'm waiting for used Tesla, Prius or Volt battery packs to become available in quantity.  Cull out the bad cells, rearrange for 12 or 24 volts and you're good to go.

There's a whole series of videos on YouTube made by a young guy who's making a career out of salvaging used 18650 laptop battery cells.  He's using hundreds of them to run his vintage VW bus conversion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQa5gn-7D74

He also describes how he built the equivalent of a Tesla Power Wall for $300.  4.4Kwh = 366 amp-hours at 12 volts.

The 6 amp per cell safety fuses he's using are the wire leads from a 1/4 watt resistor.  They are available in quantity for a couple of cents each and you get 2 fuses per resistor.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcMfCkN1juSa49DJFYltOTw

jagnweiner said:

Interesting conversation.  I took Lou's advice and went to Technomadia's site. I haven't dug in deep, but I skimmed some of their write-ups.  Looks like right now they wouldn't necessarily recommend the lithium product over a good AGM battery bank.

Click to expand...

Yes, they talked about the fact that their Li-ions have also cycled out much earlier than they had anticipated, which makes me feel much better about the fact that I can't afford them anyway 

The current battery charging system in your coach will not work with Lithium batteries. You must install a battery managementsystem that matchs your batteries.

Also you need lots of the green stuff.

George

CVRV. The phrase "your current charging system will not work" needs to be chaged to "Likely will not work" or "May not work"

As it happens I have two charging systems in my RV, the one I choose to use, cause I think it is better for the batteries I have, Your statement is dead on (Will not work)

The other is fully programmable for several types of batteries including LiON.

Howdy everyone,

I've been following the Lithium battery field for about an year now. I'm very interested in it, as the technology seems to offer a lot when compared to lead-acid.

Regarding fire safety, not all Lithium batteries are created equal: depending on the specific chemistry (ie, what other substances it uses, apart from lithium), it could be safer or riskier. In fact, Lithium-Cobalt batteries are much less safe (but also costs much less for the same capacity); it was those that caught fire in the Boeing Dreamliners. Lithium-iron-phosphate (aka LiFePO4) are much safer, and are  considered fire-proof as long as one doesn't do anything stupid (like shorting the battery terminals, and even so some reports tell us that the piece of metal/wire doing the short burned away but the battery itself didn't ignite), but then they are the most expensive in a dollar/Ah basis.

An interesting middle-ground is apparently offered by lithium-manganese oxide (aka spinel, or LiMnO4) batteries: safer than the cobalt batteries (although not as much as the LiFePO4 ones), but not much more expensive. These are the batteries being used in the Chevy Volt (with added compounds), and a DIYer can apparently get a good one from a wreck for about $2k and enjoy 12KWh of energy storage, which is an absolutely stupendous amount, and would be cheaper than even than lead-acid... this is one gentleman who is going that route: http://rvnerds.com/2016/01/18/new-project-installation-of-a-new-lithium-ion-house-battery-bank/

As for LiFePO4s, +1 for the Technomadia site: they have been using these batteries for almost 5 years and reporting on their experiences all along, so there's a lot of material there. For someone who just started down this route, I recommend watching the latest WheelingIt posts: http://wheelingit.us/2016/02/24/the-big-beastly-solarbattery-upgrade-part-i-why/

Me, I'm still about an year off having to make that decision, and I hope the situation becomes clearer so we can have lithium batteries in our  own rig right from the start.

Cheers,
--
Vall

I think golf cart batteries in multiples of two are still the sweet spot of proven performance / longevity / capacity.  Heavy though.  Tough to swallow the "lithium is more expensive but actually cheaper since it lasts so much longer" when the chargers are new and different, the tech is relatively new and different for this application, and there is not a lot of adoption yet.  Meaning you most likely have to buy everything new which raises the prices even more...

One of the big selling points was that you can discharge a Li-ion much deeper, but it's sounding as-if when you do, the batteries cycle out about as fast as lead acid. They do weigh much less for a given capacity, and the fast recharge sounds great.

It'll come, I'm counting on Elon to "make it so"

Regarding fires in Lithium batteries, Lithium is a very active element, being in the same period (on the periodic table) as Sodium, Potassium, and so on.  If exposed to air (oxygen, more specifically), it ignites on its own.  If you try to use water on a Lithium battery fire, it makes it worse.  Lead-acid batteries don't burn. 


However, Lithium ion batteries are a very good piece of technology with a very high charge density, and they keep discovering more about how to make them better all the time.  Lithium is also light, being on the top end of the periodic table,[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif] with lead, of course, being toward the bottom.  (Hydrogen, Helium, then Lithium).[/font]



[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]As others have noted, too expensive for me at the moment.  But expect technology to improve, and prices to come down as time goes on.[/font]

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Frank.[/font]