Young guy, First fifth wheel, Questions!?!?!

Hello All!!! This forum looks like a great place to learn a few things. First things first, I am a young guy looking to buy my first fifth wheel. I have been looking at Keystone Montanas. I will be doing extended trips (basically living in it full time here in CHILLY Colorado) for work. It seems that the Montanas have ducted heat to the tanks as opposed to the electric heaters that most four season campers have. Is this correct or am I missing something? Any thoughts on this as I will be spending winters in the trailer and am worried about frozen pipes etc

Also, I am looking at a 2013 Keystone Montana Mountaineer. I am slightly confused as to how Keystone named there trailer models. It seems that the mountaineer is their top of the line fifth wheel that year. Or am I incorrect? I have looked at several 2011 Keystone Montanas and they seem like the same model...

If you know anything about these trailers please comment. If you know anything about living in a fifth wheel in cold weather please comment.

Some RVs use ducted heat and others electric heat pads. Depends to some extent on whether they have enclosed storage bays or not. Ducted heat relies on heating the space around the plumbing, whereas tank heater pads work by contact. Motorhomes with basements typically have ducted heat, for example.

I thought Mountaineer was a trim level of the Montana, but RV model and submodel names come & go like the wind. I see in the Keystone Brochure Archive that they used Mountaineer as a separate model name in 2013, so you may be right. I'll leave it to you to compare specs and decide, but I see that the brochure calls it "Mountaineer by Montana", so it's really just a semantic change.
http://www.keystonerv.com/brochure-archive

you wont be able to winter in it in colorado

@ Gary, Thanks for the info. I will put the link to good use.

@Steveblonde, Im listening. Why cant I winter it in Colorado?

I have also looked at a few Heartland fifth wheels. The BigHorn and BigCountry... People seem to really like these for full time living. Any idea how they compare to the Montanas?

snailspace said:

@ Gary, Thanks for the info. I will put the link to good use.

@Steveblonde, Im listening. Why cant I winter it in Colorado?

I have also looked at a few Heartland fifth wheels. The BigHorn and BigCountry... People seem to really like these for full time living. Any idea how they compare to the Montanas?

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its not made for those climates - i have a 2015 Voltage with dual pane windows heated tanks epic 4 season package etc.etc.etc on a recent trip to Spokane at Easter with the temps hovering around the freezing mark and just above a 30lb tank of propane lasts 3 days - with the electric fireplace on 24/7 at minus 1 you will freeze to death - this topic has been beat to death that Montana is built for 1 1/2 seasons late spring summer and early fall not winter - sorry

steveblonde said:

its not made for those climates - i have a 2015 Voltage with dual pane windows heated tanks epic 4 season package etc.etc.etc on a recent trip to Spokane at Easter with the temps hovering around the freezing mark and just above a 30lb tank of propane lasts 3 days - with the electric fireplace on 24/7 at minus 1 you will freeze to death - this topic has been beat to death that Montana is built for 1 1/2 seasons late spring summer and early fall not winter - sorry

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Yikes... and I think your Voltage has close to the same R rating as the Montana. Any suggestions on a unit that would do better?

Arctic Fox and Open Range are two I can think of that at least advertise 4 season use.  I don't have any cold weather experience with either though, so take it FWIW.

MMW said:

Arctic Fox and Open Range are two I can think of that at least advertise 4 season use.  I don't have any cold weather experience with either though, so take it FWIW.

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Arctic Fox is only good to 15F Open range is no better than a Montana or Voltage the other option is a Roughneck designed to the oil guys

http://www.roughnecktrailers.com/

This is a frequently discussed topic.  The problem with ANY RV in winter (and summer high heat) is the heat loss  1. through windows      2. through sidewalls, especially slides      3. out the bottom.  Compared to a normal house, the amount of window space - the single biggest heat loss in most houses - is huge.  --> big heat loss.  The advertised R values sound good, but normally do not apply to slides - walls or floors or ceiling.  Slides make up a large portion of the walls.  To try to preserve some heat, underpinning of some sort is a must to stop the breeze under the camper.

Being single (I assume), it may be doable, but you better enjoy 55 deg indoor temps and sky high heat bills.

I am also curious how many RV camp grounds in Colorado are open year round??

grashley said:

I am also curious how many RV camp grounds in Colorado are open year round??

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There are at least three camp ground around Denver that allow open year camping that I know of. I need to look into the details of it as far as cost and availability though.

I honestly think that living in the Denver area in a camper wont be that hard... I have read through some of the cold weather camping threads and there are people up in ND and Canada doing it. Being a native of Colorado I really don't want to brag on the weather here in an attempt to keep transplants at bay but...... lol   Weather in Denver isn't that horrible in the winter. It gets cold but its no -20 degrees for extended periods of time...

Anyway, I was seriously looking at used Montanas but I am not finding many people use them. Heartland (the big horn, Big Country, Landmark) have more people vouching for them on these online forums.... Anyone have any experience with a Heartland? How is the underbelly insulated?

I am also looking at a couple Mobile Suites. Everyone swears by their insulation. Ill just have to go a few years older on the model in order to afford it. 

Could you winter in Denver area?  Sure.  The Dakota oil boom has proven that.  But those people insulate and skirt their trailers, and spend close to a hundred dollars a week on propane.  I assume you cant move to warm climate, so quit looking at cheap and go for a Teton.  Built using 2X4 construction with plenty of insulation.  Teton was built in WY for the oil and gas industry.  As an option Mobile Suites.

donn said:

Could you winter in Denver area?  Sure.  The Dakota oil boom has proven that.  But those people insulate and skirt their trailers, and spend close to a hundred dollars a week on propane.  I assume you cant move to warm climate, so quit looking at cheap and go for a Teton.  Built using 2X4 construction with plenty of insulation.  Teton was built in WY for the oil and gas industry.  As an option Mobile Suites.

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Teton! Thanks, Ill add them to the list!

Not sure I would winter in ours but the Columbus has a fully enclosed underbelly with furnace duct to the basement and the water valve control area.  It also has the 12 volt heat pads on all the tanks.  Kind of double coverage for cold weather.  R values are 38 floor, 34 ceiling and 11 walls.  Again not sure it would be great for all seasons but I would think good to mid 20's.  Still be expensive to heat.

Elkhounds said:

Not sure I would winter in ours but the Columbus has a fully enclosed underbelly with furnace duct to the basement and the water valve control area.  It also has the 12 volt heat pads on all the tanks.  Kind of double coverage for cold weather.  R values are 38 floor, 34 ceiling and 11 walls.  Again not sure it would be great for all seasons but I would think good to mid 20's.  Still be expensive to heat.

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that's no different than my Voltage insulation wise 40 roof and floors, 24 slides 11 walls a 30lbs tank of propane in 3 days at 32F 0C in Spokane at Easter and it was snowing wet snow we were warm not cold thermostat was set at 68 but honestly I'm not sure how accurate that is we also has a fireplace on set to 68 and a parabolic heater on med in the garage to keep the chill off the dogs

We have a 2014 Open Range 4 season ducted basement. Small furnace can't keep up with major cold, heat going to the basement is heat lost in the living area. Such a long run from furnace to rear living floor duct barely any warm air comes out and I've checked the ducts and had my dealer double check them.

Fireplace is good to take the chill off but thats about it. We lost our furnace in Florida this december and the outside temp went to 38F I almost froze, don't forget these things are insulated so they hold the cold as well as the heat almost like a cooler or just like a cooler.

Skirts definitely, leave a faucet slightly on at night with the gray tank open and have a back up plan, space heater, rig with two furnaces, find out what make model your furnace is and research a dealer or mobile RV person who can respond quickly if you have a part failure and whether or not they deal with warranty.

My cousin is a pipeline trucker so he has wintered in his RV more than once and has a couple 100lb propane tanks. A 1500W space heater almost max's out a 15amp circuit so I use the microwave outlet which is a 20A for mine. I'm sure many do it i'm just adding a few of my experiences I'm no winter RV'ing expert for sure. Good luck

so... I am looking at a 2011 Carriage Cameo. It seems to be more suited to full time living then the Montana or the Heartlands I have considered. Any of you have a Carriage? Any good? Hows the insulation?

I haven't owned any of those, but a friend had a Cameo for a few years. He swapped it for a Hitchhiker, so I guess that says something?

Carriage was a respected RV builder, but the Cameo was not their best model (The Carri-lite, the Carriage and the Rolls were all above it). Not clear to me the Cameo is much different than Montana or some of the Heartlands. Don't recall hearing many negatives, though.

It may be possible to add some electric heat to your tanks.

here is how I did it

I noticed the fresh water tank is well clear of the bay floor.. So I got my hands on some old fashion OUTDOOR Christmas lights the C-9 Lamps (9 watts each, have a larger base than the more common C-7 size)  Works great.. NOTE they sell a 15 watt lamp that also fits this socket DO NOT USE IT, it gets too hot, the 9 watt Christmas lights work great.

In the compartment with the valves.. There is a 100 watt rough service lamp in a cage.  (Common trouble light works here rather nicely though I did not need all that cord)

These get mains power and can get inverter if I need to do it, this is in addition to the ducted heat,  also the Lights are fed via a thermostatic switch    I chan check to see if I have a link to the switch but I got it at eitehr home Depot or Lowes.. They use them on pipe warmers, eves warmers and stock tank heaters  Simple plug in and plug into devices, temps pre-set at factory.  I have two of them


Heated water hoses can be purchsed (HOLD ON TO YOUR WALLET) for something between 100 and 200 dollars

I took a standard hose, and two rolls of fancy duct tape, and a string of INCANDASCENT rope lights from Big Lots,, Used the tape to "Bundle" the lights (Which are weatherproof) and the hose.. had some light left over (more on that in a bit) plugged in another of those thermostatic outlets (thos one OUTSIDE the wet bays,, The one for the inside lights is, of course, inside)

The extra rope is wrapped around the park water pipe and a box (Corrorgated paper "Shipping" carton" placed over the thing to protect from wind and insulate, an additional 100 watt lamp can also go in the box.

Of course,,, None of this will protect you when the temps get to well below zero.. But I estimate I can go 10 degrees BELOW design limite, and in fact have done so on occasion.  Design limt is 20

John From Detroit said:

It may be possible to add some electric heat to your tanks.

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Thanks for the long detailed explanation! From what I have been reading wintering in a fifth wheel is all about prep. As soon as I get a unit, I like, I will be adding a few "custom touches" LOL. 

In other news I talked to a company rep about the Open Range 3x by Highland Ridge. This is a newish model they have that has really beefed up the insulation. Of course the brochure talks about R values and everything. They look impressive but obviously you take everything from the brochure with a grain of salt. In talking with the rep I was impressed with the construction though. The side walls are 3" thick and there is a 3/4" extra of insulation throughout. The rep said that the only one that comes close to being this well insulated was Mobile Suite...

Anyone here care to comment on the comparison of the Mobile Suite and the Open Range? I know the Open Range is a lot cheeper...

Just  quick update... We bought a 2010 Mobile Suites. Now just in the process of down sizing everything we own.