yet another backing up question

Ok, I'm going to ask again. My backing up situation for my driveway is that I have a narrow street and a long driveway. If I start the trailer turning, there is nowhere forward to go to straighten it out once it is at the angle I need, and if I keep going I'm in full jackknife and cannot continue. I still am trying to find out if there is a way to get this thing backed up without pulling forward, when the angle to get it INTO the driveway has to be extreme, and then it has to go straight back, meaning it has to straighten out. Meaning I have to somehow get it to STOP turning WITHOUT pulling forward. I have no trouble with getting it turning in the first place, and I have quite a bit of successful experience in situations that do not require nearly a jackknife to get the trailer started on its path, such as boat ramps. The problem is that the path it needs to take is like an upside down letter L, where by the time I get it far enough into the driveway to where I have room to pull forward, it is already turned too far and the rear of the trailer would be in the front yard, WAY off the track it needs to be on. My tow vehicle is longer than my trailer.

MA said:

My tow vehicle is longer than my trailer.

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Your tow vehicle is longer than your trailer.  :  If that is indeed the case, it is very difficult to back up a trailer that is shorter than your truck or car. It's going to be just a matter of practice, practice and more practice.  I'd rather back up my 38 foot 5vr than I would a real short utility trailer like you buy at Home Depot.  By the time you want to change the direction of the truck, the trailer is already  gone too far the other way.

Chock it well, unhook, reposition truck, hook up, pull chocks, repeat as necessary.

You can get it in there, whether it is worth the work is up to you. And remember, you also need to get it out at some point

Also, you say you are waiting until the angle is what you need, you likely will have to start straightening BEFORE the angle is right, or you will always go too far.

As your tow vehicle (TV) passes your driveway, turn it into the opposing lane until the front tire is about two feet from the curb. Straighten the TV and continue until the rear wheels of your travel trailer (TT) are about one foot past he driveway and one to two feet from the driveway curb. Stop. The TV should be straight with the road and the TT should be slightly angled toward your driveway.

Put the TV in reverse and put your driving hand on the BOTTOM of the steering wheel.

Slowly, back straight backwards and the TT will start turning into the driveway. Make sure the TT rear wheels don't turn so sharply that they go into the curb or ditch before entering the driveway.

As you are backing, turn the steering wheel in the direction that you want the rear of the TT to go. If you want the TT to turn sharper, move the steering wheel toward the driveway or to the right. If the TT is turning too sharply, turn the steering wheel away from the driveway or to the left. While backing, keep track of the position of the TV front end so the tire doesn't hit the curb or go into the ditch.

If you don't get the TT straight in the driveway on the first try, simply stop and pull forward to your starting position. If the TT jacknifes on you, pull out and reposition with the TV a little farther from the curb before trying again.

Try practicing this on a school parking lot when it isn't occupied. You will soon notice that the more radical your turn when crossing into the opposing lane to set up, the farther you can position the TV from the curb for the backing move and the simpler it will be.

The key is to go slow and keep the TT turning in an arc so that you are not correcting both left and right.

As far as backing up the driveway, again put your driving hand on the BOTTOM of the steering wheel, look in the rear view mirror and move your hand in the direction you want the TT to go, not the direction you want the TV to go. Check both rear view mirrors and, initially at least, go slow.

If you end up jackknifed, basically you aren't starting the "straighten out" part of the maneuver early enough. There is a point in any backing turn where you transition from pushing the trailer at an angle to make it turn, to "following" the trailer so that it does not continue on turning ever more sharply. It's not easy to judge, so it's going to take much practice to find that point for a difficult turn. Preferably when there is little traffic to interfere with your education.

Is it possible to have a hitch mounted on the front of your TV so you can "push" the trailer which would put the steer wheels closer to the trailer? I see a number of farm trucks here where we live that have a setup like that. Have also seen it with some boat tow vehicles which in that case keeps the traction wheels up on dry ramp.

Gary RV Roamer said:

If you end up jackknifed, basically you aren't starting the "straighten out" part of the maneuver early enough. There is a point in any backing turn where you transition from pushing the trailer at an angle to make it turn, to "following" the trailer so that it does not continue on turning ever more sharply. It's not easy to judge, so it's going to take much practice to find that point for a difficult turn. Preferably when there is little traffic to interfere with your education.

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Exactly.

And you have to be johnny on the spot with those short trailers:  they can get out of hand quick!

i can back an unloaded tow dolly into a camp site with my 34' MH. In an empty parking lot learn what angle is the point of no return for the trailer, meaning where is there no chance of chasing it back to straight. Once you find that practice chasing it in a circle. Once you know the approximate point of no return practice short pull ups, learn what directions turn turn the wheel for pulling up and then backing up, three or four pull ups of just a couple feet with you sawing the steering wheel back and forth can straighten you out enough to continue carving the arc you need.     

Another idea is to follow Quillbacks advise of swinging out and presetting an angle.

One more is to try coming from the other direction on your street. Maybe there is a wee bit more shoulder on the opposite side of the street when coming the other way. There is a good question, what is on the shoulder across the street are you trying to stay on the pavement when there is a usable shoulder? Unless there is a neighbors landscaping or steep drop off or some kind of real obstacle use the shoulder. If it is not a private road the local government, which owns the street, also owns the rite of way, which means you can leave the pavement for this kind of purpose. If a neighbors driveway is across the way, even at an angle ask the neighbor if you can use their driveway to line up for the occasional backing in.

Bill

I can.back in my 26ft camper into.my drive no problem.  But need to do the 20 point turn go back my 8ft ulitily trailer into the same driveway

I had to go look up a 20 point turn. Found a funny video on Youtube where I guess the driver didn't know how to turn the wheel more than five degrees.
I realized there is a nearby high school where I can go practice, but if I don't get it then I won't be able to bring it home again. Which is why I'm trying to understand it mentally first. It seems like I need to start with a much smaller angle than I have been, aim for the near side of the driveway, and back and fill (add "points") and maybe even unhitch to get it where I want it. Sigh.  I could even do the unhitch thing probably twice using my initial too-high-angle start into the driveway, to get it in straight. Thanks guys this has been helpful. Also thank heavens for my SwiftHitch which is downright useful. No more blind hitching.
Thanks for the idea to approach from the other way, which I can probably do by just going around the cul de sac I'm right before the cul de sac; if on it, I could just back straight up. Bought the wrong house for trailer backing. That angle might work better because of where it needs to end up. Hadn't thought of that.

Given the choice, I'm sure most of us would prefer backing with a view from the side with the closest mirror, meaning the driver's side. Once you are in your drive, if it's as long as you indicate, it won't really matter which side of the drive the TT needs to end up on. You should have plenty of time for minor corrections.

Is it possible to add a "turn around" near the house, long enough to hold both the tow vehicle and trailer?  This makes a much shorter distance to back up, and you can determine the space needed to make the maneuver.

For a good tutorial on backing a trailer, go to your local State park campground and watch the folks backing in there. Most state parks are not really set up for 36'+ trailers. Lots of obstacles like site markers, trees in the site, trees across the road, water stanchions, etc. Watch the interaction of the trailer and the front tires of the tow vehicle as they are backing. There are guys like me that still have to work at it, and others that get it perfect the first try. I watched two guys come in together last weekend and it was enlightening to say the least. One guy had a site that was a pain to get into due to trees etc. and the other was wide open. The guy in the tight spot was really struggling to get in the site. The other guy pulled his trailer out of his "easy" site so the one struggling could get in there. The one that moved, drove around the loop, and the only time he stopped was when he shifted from drive to reverse and slid into the site without ever pulling up. It all comes down to practice. Personally, I still struggle a bit and the DW and I really need to take the time in an empty parking lot to get ourselves on the same page. I don't have a problem backing a more open trailer where I can see a bit better, but backing blind with that big box behind me is a chore sometimes. We can get it in the sites ok, it's just getting it straight in the site being the problem. More of a lack of communication of where we want the trailer to end up, and what's needed to get it there. If I have good landmarks on my "good" side, I can get it correct. Practice, teamwork, communication and "GOAL" (get out and look) are the keys.

It's spring.  Just go to any boat launch.  Hours of fun watching newbies trying to back their new boats into the boat launch. 

It's more fun watching them trying to get the boat back on the trailer.

kdbgoat said:

It's more fun watching them trying to get the boat back on the trailer.

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Especially with a breeze

2kGeorgieBoy said:

Is it possible to have a hitch mounted on the front of your TV so you can "push" the trailer which would put the steer wheels closer to the trailer? I see a number of farm trucks here where we live that have a setup like that. Have also seen it with some boat tow vehicles which in that case keeps the traction wheels up on dry ramp.

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I built a ball/hitch on the front of my John Deere 316 garden tractor so I could get my boat in/out of my hangar easier. I also use it to tug the airplane.

MA said:

Ok, I'm going to ask again. My backing up situation for my driveway is that I have a narrow street and a long driveway. If I start the trailer turning, there is nowhere forward to go to straighten it out once it is at the angle I need, and if I keep going I'm in full jackknife and cannot continue. I still am trying to find out if there is a way to get this thing backed up without pulling forward, when the angle to get it INTO the driveway has to be extreme, and then it has to go straight back, meaning it has to straighten out. Meaning I have to somehow get it to STOP turning WITHOUT pulling forward. I have no trouble with getting it turning in the first place, and I have quite a bit of successful experience in situations that do not require nearly a jackknife to get the trailer started on its path, such as boat ramps. The problem is that the path it needs to take is like an upside down letter L, where by the time I get it far enough into the driveway to where I have room to pull forward, it is already turned too far and the rear of the trailer would be in the front yard, WAY off the track it needs to be on. My tow vehicle is longer than my trailer.

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If your trailer is a bumper pull, I'd mount a ball on the front of the pickup just to put it in the driveway. You'd be surprised how much easier it is push the trailer, looking at it through the windshield. As mentioned previously, it puts the "steering wheels" closer to the trailer. You wouldn't need all the wiring & safety chains, just a ball.

My grandpa did this for his boat trailer because he had a slide-in camper is his pickup. He used his set-up to launch his boat.

Update: if I get more than 15 degrees off of "straight back" the trailer jack-knifes, and it does not respond to either direction of the steering wheel. I don't know what this is a function of except possibly the length of the trailer wrt the length of the tow vehicle (trailer shorter.) If I can maneuver it into that nearly straight line it needs to back up without jack-knifing, I have zero trouble backing it up; it is rote from trailers past (long boat trailers.) Like, I don't have to even think about which way to turn the steering wheel, and can back it up easily just using the side mirrors. The problem is the narrow street that I have to start from, and getting it at the angle it needs to be to avoid jack-knifing, takes an enormous number of back-and-fills. Today it took me half an hour just to get it where it needed to START, and then I backed it right in. I guess there is no solution to this problem other than somehow getting it started nearly straight. I possibly could unhitch and re-hitch and may consider that option next time. Thanks for all the advice and hilarity.

Sounds like your best solution is to mount a ball hitch on the front of your truck and push the trailer around the corner and up the driveway.  You'll have much more maneuverability with the truck's steering wheels adjacent to the hitch instead of being at the opposite end of the vehicle.

If you have the width available, offset the hitch slightly to the right side of the truck and you'll be able to sight down the side of the trailer.