I'm scared.....

... to even start this, but I have gotten to the point where I know I need additional information from experienced people... research just isn't enough.  Even though  I am capable of understanding multiple-linear regression analysis, this whole "full timing" thing is making my head want to explode.

You "old hands" tend to use initial-isms a LOT... Thank goodness for the Glossary link at the top of these pages, it has been invaluable when trying to decipher the codes here and in other forums.  You would think retired/full time people would have enough time to use complete sentences and words, but apparently not (no insult intended, just an observation, so get your butt off your shoulders).  If you choose to respond and help out, thank you... but I will ask you to treat me as the neophyte I am and spell things out, it will really help keep the vein in my forehead from pounding.

Thumbnail sketch:  I am a 57 year old competitive juggler (http://www.thewjf.com if you're interested in the difference between that and the goofs you see on cruise ships) and intend on taking my 40 lb. non-threatening rescue dog Dixie on the road to enjoy the various competitions/festivals across the US before I get too old to do this any more.  I have good people back in WV to run my companies and just attend the board meeting for a couple days a year (which I will fly to)... otherwise I talk to the CEO on the phone only occasionally about anything serious.  I intend on staying inside the "reasonable belt" of weather and have absolutely no desire to cross any national border for any reason.... been there, done that in spades, checked off the list.  I would like to "boondock" for a week to 10 days at a time occasionally when there are no Renaissance or juggling festivals going on.  I will use everything from "resort" campgrounds to Bureau of Land Management deep woods.  I could care less about being "green" but understand the need to be thrifty with electrical/water use... I am under no illusions about how my lifestyle will be changing.  I have always cared about leaving no tracks wherever I've gone and pledge publicly to maintain my high level of concern about the quality of life of others and how I may effect it, so no "rich guy" snobbery here.

Ok, on to what I think I know and what I don't know and need help with....

I live in SD now and understand the issues of "domicile" vs. "residence" and I have good accountants that take care of tax issues for my companies.  They know nothing about RVing in any form, however.  I'm pretty sure I won't need to worry too much about licensing, taxes, mail, etc.  as I've managed to read enough about all that from various forums to know what I need to do.  Vehicle insurance, registration, etc. also covered.  Trip planning and logistical analysis is fun for me, so no problems there either.

I've been using the internet as a data resource since before there WAS a World Wide Web and am well aware of the filtering/interpreting required to separate the wheat from the chaff but I am SO completely without a reference base on this one that it's been more difficult...  It's easy to see who are the "crotchety old farts" that like to find fault in anything but their own opinions/experience or the ill-educated pontificating on what they don't really know, but the fact of the matter is, I realize just how much I don't know regardless of all the reading I've done in the last couple weeks and so here I am, begging for either directions to resources or direct help in my decision making process.  Again, thank you if you wish to add to the discussion... please go away if you don't like how I talk... I don't need you to tell me I'm alienating some potential resources, thanks.

Where I get bogged down is equipment.  Not just trying to find factual specifications, but deciphering the wide range of experienced "opinion" I see when others have asked for advice.  Here are some statements of fact I CAN start with:

I will buy a 5th wheel of some kind.

It will have additional insulation beyond the 1 1/2" foam junk board. 

I do NOT care what it looks like nor do I care about the "depreciation hit" you take buying a new unit.

I would prefer to buy a recent model used unit that fits all my requirements but then, so would everybody 

I am NOT trying to get this done for this "season", but would like to at least make the base purchases before the snow flies here.

If it doesn't come already installed, it WILL have serious solar/battery capacity as I like my air conditioning but don't want to hear a generator all day every day when I'm out in the booney... hopefully that won't be an issue as I don't intend on staying around anywhere too hot unless it's somewhere I can "plug in".

I am willing to pay to have someone modify the unit to meet my requirements.  I am not overly "handy" but am willing to learn once I have what I want to start with.

I am willing to drive a considerable distance to purchase/pick up the unit.

I do not need/want or care about additional sleeping capability... if the unit has "hide-a-bed"couches or additional bunks I will have them removed any way.  Dixie and I just need a single king sized bed.

There are several other specific requirements I have on my list but I fear this is getting too long and most people (even those with lots of time on their hands) will skip it.  I'm willing to haul water/waste with the (1 ton) truck I'll be buying to haul this behemoth.  I'd like to keep it around 35' as I've seen many references to limited sizes when talking about access to many campgrounds/public lands.  Money is not as much an issue as meeting my requirements.  I will not consider a "motor coach" nor will I purchase based on perceived status by others around me... I mean it when I say I don't care what it looks like... I'd rather NOT spend the money on "solid wood walnut cabinetry", stainless steel appliances or custom paint jobs... I truly do not care.  I also realize that manufacturers seem to think that any "coach" that would meet my baseline requirements equipment-wise would only be purchased by someone that really cares if it looks like it came straight off the front page of >insert coolest RV magazine here<.

So I'm soliciting advice on manufacturers and models.  I've been looking at the Montana High Country series and the Arctic Fox group and have found a couple floor plans that would work (I will be absolute death on my requirement for the primary seating to face the television as I intend on using it for my computer).  I will usually take Dixie with me when I go somewhere, but some festivals don't allow that so I'll need to be able to insure her comfort for several hours while I'm gone.  It seems to me that having a well insulated unit would help compensate for the overall power/fuel limitations in many circumstances.  I will be happy to respond with a more complete list of my specific requirements, but I think if I can get the right shell I should be able to have things modified to meet them post-purchase. Things like 6 point auto-leveling, larger batteries, etc. should all be doable.

Any thoughts, ideas or suggestions greatly appreciated.  My apologies if I offended earlier, but at least now you know more about who you're talking to if you choose to help.

Welcome to the Forum!!

First off, it will take a huge solar system to run the AC.  You will be hard pressed to find room for all the needed batteries.

I have no personal experience except with our Montana Mountaineer. But, I have heard that Arctic fox is a good brand.

Other than that, from what I have read in your post,  you have a plan and the ability to implement it. 

I hope you find what you are looking for and enjoy your travels as much as we have.

Sounds to me like you've already got most things covered.
As already described, doubtful you can run AC from batteries for any length of time.
My recommendation is Northwood products for a sturdy, well insulated 5th wheel.
I sure there is quite a selection of models which do not have hide-a-beds, and certainly not bunks. Typically these units are chosen specifically because they have bunks, so not the norm more the exception.
Good luck in your quest.

Thanks for the reply and concerns.  I probably wasn't as clear as I should have been re: the AC.  Even if I stay in temperate climates, I have to get the bedroom down to about 70 at night or no sleepy for the juggler.... During the day I'll be able to make do just fine.  I'm hopeful that I can set things up to run a bedroom AC only at night (the whole place when absolutely necessary) and with the door closed and good insulation I would hope it wouldn't run all the time so batteries should last the night... at least that was my hope :/  If that truly isn't possible, maybe I can get a smaller "quiet" generator to get me through ... would hate to do that though since I've seen a lot of comments from folks not liking generators at night, even IF I were in a spot that allowed it.  If life doesn't work out that way, then I'll just have to only go to the woods when it's going to  be a reasonable temperature at night and stay "hooked up" the rest of the time :/

Hopefully this will save someone else some typing in order to give the stats on why you can't run an AC 24/7 while on battery/solar power

Koodog said:

Sounds to me like you've already got most things covered.
As already described, doubtful you can run AC from batteries for any length of time.
My recommendation is Northwood products for a sturdy, well insulated 5th wheel.
I sure there is quite a selection of models which do not have hide-a-beds, and certainly not bunks. Typically these units are chosen specifically because they have bunks, so not the norm more the exception.
Good luck in your quest.

Click to expand...

Thanks, Northwoods was another one I was looking at as well as the Mobile Suites bunch... of course, I may be using the wrong names there as it has been obvious that many manufacturers build many "models" and those model names are used by dealers most of the time without reference to the actual manufacturer... so it's gotten a little confusing comparing forum comments to websites and actual units.

You would think retired/full time people would have enough time to use complete sentences and words, but apparently not

Click to expand...

We too are jumping into fulltiming, just got a coach and are in the middle of moving into it from a 3 bedroom house, and getting the house ready to sell. Just yesterday my DH (dear husband) said he thought retirement was going to be easy. He said he might have to go back to work to relax and so people won't bother him.  ;D

There is a lot of good information for your dog in the traveling with pets section. We have two full size dogs who sleep with us, and a queen size bed. I envy you your king.

One thing I found is that no matter how much you research going into this, once the coach (or in your case, 5th wheel) is in front of you, its going to be overwhelming. Id suggest that once you get your rig, spend a few days in it while parked in your driveway or near your home. Go over the owners manual and see where everything is and how it works. Its much easier to do it that way than trying to figure out how to turn off the water while its overflowing the shower or something like that.

Ive noticed that on this site, these old guys know their stuff.

I think most important of all is keep your sense of humor and don't take it very seriously. There are several threads about dumb things people have done. Read up on them and laugh a little. This is all about having fun.

We also do the ren faire so we may see you on the road.

take care,

Thanks for your thoughts   I'd already figured on setting out here for a bit, testing, testing, testing... and it will let Dixie get used to everything as well as educate me.  I'm out in the middle of nowhere here and love it... it will probably be the only thing I'll really miss. 

I've read the Traveling with Pets forum pretty far back now and have made a lot of notes.  I'm pretty sure I can keep Dixie legal and comfortable no problem.  The power issue can be resolved with an emergency backup generator and automated monitoring/switching I think.  As long as I wasn't in the middle of actually competing, I'd be able to get back to her in a short period of time.  That's really my only other worry about AC besides sleeping.  I've rescued dogs, cats and horses for the last 20 years and like to think of myself as a responsible pet owner so hopefully with sufficient prior planning her life comfort will be assured

As to having fun.... well, you'll have to forgive my rather bristly opening, but I've been around forums of various types for a long time.... built and ran my own multi-line system out of my house before AOL was only a gleam in it's daddy's eye... and having recently tried asking for assistance elsewhere (and making note of the general pattern of discussion on various boards), I see it hasn't changed one bit   I AM having fun, but regardless of my (still reasonable) mental capacity, there's just more information out there than can readily be absorbed, filtered and analyzed.  Thought I'd save myself some work AND get out there for people to see so that when the times arise I need additional real-time assistance on something, I won't be a completely unknown factor.   I'll end up with no house and a special dog that needs to be taken care of and I want to insure I'm in the best position to do that, and hopefully all this typing will help

Actually, on further reflection I apologize.  If a moderator would delete this thread it's probably best, thanks.

I see no reason to delete this topic.

Hmm. With lots of 5th wheels the bedroom already has a door. Mounting a small AC through a wall would be fairly easy, and would also be easier to power from a battery bank. Hey, someone on the Forum has a residential fridge running on batteries, a small AC shouldn't be too hard.

Since you mentioned Ren Fairs, I was wondering if I'd seen you. Ever been to the Georgia Renaissance Festival?

@moderator As you wish.  I just don't want to create a problem right off the bat.  Reading a LOT more I see there's actually a lot of good folks here that would take an opening like that the wrong way.  I thought it best to just keep reading and stop typing

Beginners butterflies. We've all been there.

You came to the right place to ask, vent, rant, cheer, sigh,... as you go through the experience of starting a new lifestyle.

Just picture a bunch of laid back folk sitting around a campfire. That's all we are. Pull up a chair and be yourself.

srs713 said:

Hmm. With lots of 5th wheels the bedroom already has a door. Mounting a small AC through a wall would be fairly easy, and would also be easier to power from a battery bank. Hey, someone on the Forum has a residential fridge running on batteries, a small AC shouldn't be too hard.

Since you mentioned Ren Fairs, I was wondering if I'd seen you. Ever been to the Georgia Renaissance Festival?

Click to expand...

I've read some amazing things in various places regarding what folks have been able to do with sufficient batteries/solar cells.  I'm not aiming to build a rig like this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5Fb0kQMwQg
but certainly nothing I buy from a manufacturer is likely to meet my needs without sincere upgrading.  I'll keep a technical discussion to the correct threads but I really think having nighttime and occasional daytime support for Dixie in a trailer bedroom shouldn't be TOO impossible...

Right now I just have to find the right base unit to modify.  Someone could make some money out there by becoming truly fluent in all the support system manufacturer's and the cost/efficiency/limitations of each as well as the trailer makers and be able to offer design services... of course, I haven't done any serious research into folks who do custom trailers yet so perhaps that's part of the cost there.

In that regard, any suggestions on established businesses that can do warranted custom work would be appreciated as well.

srs713 said:

Beginners butterflies. We've all been there.

You came to the right place to ask, vent, rant, cheer, sigh,... as you go through the experience of starting a new lifestyle.

Just picture a bunch of laid back folk sitting around a campfire. That's all we are. Pull up a chair and be yourself.

Click to expand...

*tips hat*  You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

srs713 said:

Hmm. With lots of 5th wheels the bedroom already has a door. Mounting a small AC through a wall would be fairly easy, and would also be easier to power from a battery bank. Hey, someone on the Forum has a residential fridge running on batteries, a small AC shouldn't be too hard.

Since you mentioned Ren Fairs, I was wondering if I'd seen you. Ever been to the Georgia Renaissance Festival?

Click to expand...

I had seen several units with dual ACs that operated separately (two thermostats) and was assuming it wouldn't be too tough to close off the space.  Since they operated seperately, any emergency system should be able to be set to power only that unit.  Of course, I've also seen where you can have a system that will let the battery bank run it until it discharged a certain amount, then kick on a generator so I suppose that would do the same thing... and perhaps be helpful in other situations.

No, I've not been to that one, much to my Aunt's chagrin (she lives in Atlanta and knows it would result in a visit)   I'm sure I will soon though

Running just one a/c is usually a built-in capability, and nicer rigs typically have a bedroom door as well. I see no difficulty in meeting that need.

I do, however, think you are going to stumble on the overnight a/c power usage. Even a modest 13,500 btu a/c draws around 11 amps @ 120v, and they tend to run quite a bit unless it is a cool evening to begin with.  To generate 11A of 120v via an inverter requires about 120A @ 12v from the batteries, and a typical  size 12v battery can only store about 85-120 amp-hours (AH), of which about 50-60% are usable before the voltage drops too low to power an inverter. That means a lot of batteries, and batteries are heavy (figure about 65 lbs per 100 AH). And you still need a genset to recharge them during the next day.

I also think you are going to run into problems trying to insulate better, since the sidewalls simply aren't thick enough to do much better, plus there are windows, skylights, etc. that allow a lot of heat transfer.  You might be able to get one of the custom RV makers to do something for you, though. Get in touch with New Horizons RV and see discuss your needs. North American RV is another possibility. Keystone won't even discuss a custom built Montana with you.

A customized Class A motorhome would probably be easier to adapt to your program than a trailer. Have you rejected that possibility?

Gary RV Roamer said:

Running just one a/c is usually a built-in capability, and nicer rigs typically have a bedroom door as well. I see no difficulty in meeting that need.

I do, however, think you are going to stumble on the overnight a/c power usage. Even a modest 13,500 btu a/c draws around 11 amps @ 120v, and they tend to run quite a bit unless it is a cool evening to begin with.  To generate 11A of 120v via an inverter requires about 120A @ 12v from the batteries, and a typical  size 12v battery can only store about 85-120 amp-hours (AH), of which about 50-60% are usable before the voltage drops too low to power an inverter. That means a lot of batteries, and batteries are heavy (figure about 65 lbs per 100 AH). And you still need a genset to recharge them during the next day.

I also think you are going to run into problems trying to insulate better, since the sidewalls simply aren't thick enough to do much better, plus there are windows, skylights, etc. that allow a lot of heat transfer.  You might be able to get one of the custom RV makers to do something for you, though. Get in touch with New Horizons RV and see discuss your needs. North American RV is another possibility. Keystone won't even discuss a custom built Montana with you.

A customized Class A motorhome would probably be easier to adapt to your program than a trailer. Have you rejected that possibility?

Click to expand...

First let me thank you for your time, Gary.  I've seen your name a lot on here and appreciate your input.

Hmmm... The amperage draw for the small AC was the data I didn't have, thank you for that.  I'm seeing references to pretty stout insulation on units by Arctic Fox (plus you get a supposed "off road" frame) at R38.  Given double pane tinted windows and the small space of a bedroom only, I just can't get my head around an AC unit that size having to run constantly... or even 50% of the time, to keep the bedroom at 72 even in 90 degrees plus.  Perhaps I give the insulation more credit than it is due, though.  Thus my need for additional empirical data.

I've read that a temperature differential between inflow and outflow on a 13.5k unit should be between 15 and 20 degrees... once the space is cooled to the proper temperature (from 90 degrees outside I suppose), wouldn't it maintain temp at night  without having to run all the time as the temperature is dropping?  I mean at that point the return air is already at 72 degrees right?  Then all you're dealing with is the "bleed off" from the shell...  I'm seeing anecdotal evidence of a 13.5k AC cooling a 24' cheap-o trailer in 110 degree heat (only down to 80, but still)... but that could also be complete bull.

The Montana High Country brochure states R38 on roof and floors but only R10 on the side walls, obviously an issue.  Adding foil bubble to the outside of the windows in the bedroom would help (I've read not the inside as that will mess up the seals on the double panes). 

As long as the frame would hold it, I have no problem with an 8 battery bank of whatever is the best you can get.  The whole solar issue is more to take the pressure off the generator to refill them for the next night than anything.  I also understand that it's better to use the generator first to get the batteries back to 80% or so as they are slower to recharge for the final 20%... do you know if this is common among all 6v batteries? 

I would invest in something like a 6500w generator which I would hope could provide enough amperage to run the AC by itself as well as the fridge, my laptop and some lights... at least according to here: https://www.steadypower.com/pages.php?pageid=133  - using the startup watts since I know that's what the AC will draw each time the compressor kicks on...

As to the Class A..... sigh.... I REALLY don't want to go that way as that would require dragging a vehicle around to use for exploring and general outings.  It would also require different licensing than I'm used to (I could drive it... drove bigger things in the Army) not to mention the whole "second engine" maintenance thing.  I hope to be planted stationary for at least a month at a time during the "off" season for the festivals though and that will require me to have additional, substantial, transport.  Of course, if that's how it must be in order to sleep comfortably at night then that's what I'll have to switch to... I see a whole new researching project in my future I think :/

I knew electric would be my big issue.. at least when not "hooked up".  It's also possible that I can leave my "boondocking" time for only areas/times of the year when night time AC isn't that big a deal.  Adjustments are easy since I can pretty much do what I want timing-wise.

Insulation is really limited by the width of the RV.  Northwood uses R18 fiberglass and R15 "reflective" insulation in the ceiling, for a theoretical R-33.  But note there's no fiberglass in the area used by the air conditioning ducts, a practice common to most RVs with ducted air conditioning.

In the walls, Northwood uses 2 lb. dense foam block insulation that has a R value of about 6.5 per inch.  If the foam is 1 1/2 inches thick it would give R-10 wall insulation.  That's pretty light by home construction standards, but that's the tradeoff given the RV's width limits.  Make the walls thicker for higher R values and you pinch off the living area inside the RV.

If you're concerned about insulation, forget the Class A.  At one end you have that massive windshield punching a hole in the box, in the other you have whatever insulation is between the bed and the exposed rear engine compartment (hot when the engine is running, cold and open to the outside air when the RV is sitting).

Lou Schneider said:

Insulation is really limited by the width of the RV.  Northwood uses R18 fiberglass and R15 "reflective" insulation in the ceiling, for a theoretical R-33.  But note there's no fiberglass in the area used by the air conditioning ducts, a practice common to most RVs with ducted air conditioning.

In the walls, Northwood uses 2 lb. dense foam block insulation that has a R value of about 6.5 per inch.  If the foam is 1 1/2 inches thick it would give R-10 wall insulation.  That's pretty light by home construction standards, but that's the tradeoff given the RV's width limits.  Make the walls thicker for higher R values and you pinch off the living area inside the RV.

If you're concerned about insulation, forget the Class A.  At one end you have that massive windshield punching a hole in the box, in the other you have whatever insulation is between the bed and the exposed rear engine compartment (hot when the engine is running, cold and open to the outside air when the RV is sitting).

Click to expand...

I suspected as much on the Class A, but was going to do some more digging to try and get specifics. :/

On the Northwood... I DID send an inquiry to one of the links Gary posted asking about being willing to give up additional interior space to add insulation.  They will of course say "No" because that would mean doing EVERything outside their normal way of doing things.  Unless I was a rock star getting a true "custom bus" built, I'm sure no one will be willing to find all new materials, re-engineer their structural plans and pay overtime for employees who have no idea what's going on because they always make them all the same. :/  Sadly I am both unable and unwilling to spend $2,000,000 on a mid-life crisis vehicle

I just don't get it... how tough would it be to give up an additional 4 inches (2 on each side) to double the insulation factor.  I have to say that keeping things warm is usually the subject matter, but in two weeks this is one of the most consistent questions I've seen on various forums (aside from "what medical insurance do I get?").  I just can't see being unwilling to lose 4 inches in order to gain a huge amount of efficiency ... but then, I also don't get custom paint jobs either :/

It looks like I'm most likely just going to have to suck it up and only stay at places where I can "hook up" everything or else only go to rustic areas when the night time temperatures are reasonable to sleep in... but, I hold out hope that some genius will have figured out a way (like that kid and his 3kw solar outfit on youtube I linked earlier) and it will be feasible in some way that doesn't require spending like a rock star

One thing I have wondered about when thinking of extreme climates is setting up a canvas "garage" over the RV. I wonder just how much the layer of air between the RV wall and the canvas would help with heating or cooling the inside of the RV?