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Author Topic: rv death spriral  (Read 20064 times)


didimitten

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2016, 12:33:01 AM »
Thanks for sharing this.  I wish there was a way to follow threads on here but I just favorited the page at least for more parts to that story.  I have heard so many stories about people buying an RV brand new for an exorbitant amount of money only to have problems with it from day one.  When is it every acceptable to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on something only to need to deal with hassle because things come broken, or faulty and don't work right.  Peoples excuse for buying a used RV is usually so they don't have to deal with those issues as someone else has already gone through it as well as the disgusting depreciation.  They are so over priced.

I hope I am not offending anyone with this mini rant.  If you want to buy a new RV knowing the downfalls because that is what you want, have at it.  People have the right to spend their hard earned money on what they want.  It is just so unfair that so many people are getting something unfairly priced and riddled with problems. Something costing over $150k should leave that lot reliable, tested and high quality. 
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jackiemac

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2016, 02:12:46 AM »
Interesting story, I'm going to read it too. There still seems to be a huge demand for RVs you only need to see how many people join this forum every day to realise that. Manufacturers do need to up their game, I can't believe that the poor quality doesn't cost them a lot.
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decaturbob

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2016, 07:08:33 AM »
Interesting story, I'm going to read it too. There still seems to be a huge demand for RVs you only need to see how many people join this forum every day to realise that. Manufacturers do need to up their game, I can't believe that the poor quality doesn't cost them a lot.

I have had our 8 yr old RV for less than a week and some of the "workmanship" I have seen been pretty sad.  The factory people surely aren't craftsman on any level that I can see....
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MYRV2

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2016, 07:49:19 AM »
I've had some horrible run ins with ford and Winnebago,... this is something that I can't understand how they get away with,..
when I had the problem with the bad wheel bearings....two brand new coaches in a row ,... winnabago flat would not lift a finger to help... they said the problem was with me and ford....the rv industry has made it a standard to separate the two...and make you fight alone with the chassis builder...but, why does it stop there...? and whats to stop them from going on to say,... we didn't build the air conditioners??? Winnebago is already doing it with the generators.... you have to take it to onan...and the tires... you have to take it to goodyear...

 I've been in the building trade for all my life,.. I build custom homes from lot development to final décor and landscaping,... how fast would I find my butt in court if I told the buyer....I didn't pour the concrete, so and so did...

my opinion is winnabago is the general building the homes... they pick the subs, and should be liable for there work..
the other thing is the warrany,... it should be at least 3 years... or some kind of prorated bumper to bumper...that they pay for..

most people hardly use their rv and it falls apart within the first year...

I bought a new FR3....from the pictures it looked real good and looked like wood cabinettes.... when it got here it was contact paper wood.. while setting in the drive way after a couple days in the vegas heat,. it had bubles and places where it wasn't stuck good..there answer was,... the motorhome was not designed for extreme heat, and that it has to be stored in a climate controlled storage...really..............:P
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 07:57:01 AM by MYRV2 »
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MYRV2

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2016, 08:02:16 AM »
I have had our 8 yr old RV for less than a week and some of the "workmanship" I have seen been pretty sad.  The factory people surely aren't craftsman on any level that I can see....

I do see a situation that the people changed... plazzo...I looked at them when they first came out, even my wife, who is very quiet... told the sales man... was this coach damaged and then rebuilt???

but look at them now...I talked to the sells rep a couple yrs after and they said they were tighting up on the QC and everyone should see a much improved product....I went from, i'd never buy one of these,. to , whats the best deal out the door...:D
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SeilerBird

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2016, 08:39:00 AM »
Quote
So, there were 9 million RV owning households in 1997, and 9 million in 2011 and 9 million today. This despite the fact that, using RVIAs own shipment numbers, there were 5.7 million new RVs built between 1997 and 2015.
Yes, a whole bunch of RVers upgraded their units during that time, and some more than once. But the used RVs didn’t evaporate, did they?
Does the author of this horrible piece of journalism understand there is only one country in the world manufacturing RV in any quantity? We export a lot of our RVs to other countries. RVs also have a very limited lifetime on the road, ten to fifteen years at the most. Then they end up being parked out in the country and used as a guest house, a meth lab or some other use whereby they are not registered at the state level.

The RV industry is just fine. I don't see any death spiral.
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MYRV2

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2016, 09:03:18 AM »
Does the author of this horrible piece of journalism understand there is only one country in the world manufacturing RV in any quantity? We export a lot of our RVs to other countries. RVs also have a very limited lifetime on the road, ten to fifteen years at the most. Then they end up being parked out in the country and used as a guest house, a meth lab or some other use whereby they are not registered at the state level.

The RV industry is just fine. I don't see any death spiral.

thanks for posting:D
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Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2016, 09:11:35 AM »
RV sales are up again from last year, so the alleged "death spiral" doesn't seem to be hurting the industry any. As long as there are buyers for the product as is, things are not going to change.

People assume that buying a new RV is going to be like buying a new car. It is most definitely NOT. It's more like buying a new house, where a general contractor assembled a bunch of stuff from various suppliers and hired a bunch of subcontractors to put it together for you. When something doesn't come out right, the contractor goes back to the supplier or subcontractor to get it fixed.
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TonyDtorch

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2016, 09:30:11 AM »
The problem is most younger people believe now days..... my Toyota never had a lot of warranty issues.

so, obviously  The reason motorhomes have a lot of problems is because they are made in America.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 09:37:07 AM by TonyDtorch »

Sun2Retire

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2016, 09:52:28 AM »
RV sales are up again from last year, so the alleged "death spiral" doesn't seem to be hurting the industry any. As long as there are buyers for the product as is, things are not going to change.

X2. IMHO this guy has run out of things to talk about and is resorting to hyperbole to grab attention. By his own admittance: "Two weeks from today, I will be stunned if I have any subscribers or advertisers left on RV Daily Report".

I did get a chuckle out of this from his byline: "...and is anxiously waiting for some RV company to host a conference in the Aloha State." If such a conference is held in Hawaii kinda doubt he'd be invited.
Scott
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kdbgoat

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2016, 09:57:25 AM »
Unfortunately, the industry needs to go into a downward spiral until they start having some serious quality control upgrades. I've been looking at motorhomes for a couple of years now, trying to decide what we really want. I was just looking at a 2015 Holiday Rambler, gas engine, 36'. I got online and looked at all the complaints about the slides not working correctly, serious 12 volt electrical problems, seeing daylight under the bedroom slide when the slide is out, etc. From what I have read, Holiday Rambler and the Bounder are made on the same assembly line, so why would the Bounder be any different? Are Monaco's any better? They're built by the same company. The way I look at it, if I spend $100,000+ on a motorhome, I want it to be built right. I, or anybody else shouldn't have to go through a year of hell dealing with dealers that don't give a hoot because they already have your money and hassling with the factory reps to get it corrected. Oh, I know, take it back to the factory while under warranty and they will fix it right. I have 3 weeks of vacation a year and I'm going to use that up going back to the factory half way across the country so they can MAYBE fix it the way it should have been when it left the factory? RRRRRight! The whole idea of Rv'ing and camping is to enjoy life, not deal with one expensive dilemma after another. I have just about decided if I want a motorhome, I will buy an old used one with a proven chassis and drivetrain, and upgrade it myself. At least if it doesn't work, I have no one to blame but myself. The factory and dealers can stick the late model junk where the sun don't shine. Let the downward spiral pick up speed as far as I'm concerned.
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Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2016, 10:32:29 AM »
$100k for a motorhome is a lot of money, so most people tend to think it "oughta be perfect" at that price. But $100k is actually pretty cheap to put all that stuff on a long chassis, with a flashy body and glitzy interior.  Well built ones (still not perfect, I'm sure) run to $1M or more, so why would you expect perfection for 10% of that? Even allowing for somewhat less amenities?  I hate to defend an industry that has mediocre design and sloppy workmanship as its norm, but I also understand why they focus almost entirely on target price and superficial features. It's what the majority of the buying public wants, as witnessed by the way they spend their dollars.
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MYRV2

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2016, 11:09:04 AM »
$100k for a motorhome is a lot of money, so most people tend to think it "oughta be perfect" at that price. But $100k is actually pretty cheap to put all that stuff on a long chassis, with a flashy body and glitzy interior.  Well built ones (still not perfect, I'm sure) run to $1M or more, so why would you expect perfection for 10% of that? Even allowing for somewhat less amenities?  I hate to defend an industry that has mediocre design and sloppy workmanship as its norm, but I also understand why they focus almost entirely on target price and superficial features. It's what the majority of the buying public wants, as witnessed by the way they spend their dollars.

good post....lol I want what I want when I want it.... but usally get what I paid for.....what I wanted cost tooo much ...:P
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kdbgoat

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2016, 11:45:48 AM »
No Gary, I don't think it ought to be perfect, but I do think it should engineered and assembled to do the intended job reliably, and if there are problems, they should be remedied quickly without a bunch of hassle. Just because I buy a Ford Focus for $18,000 instead of a Mercedes for $200,000 doesn't mean I should have to accept a vehicle that doesn't do what it was intended to do. I understand the difference between the Focus having a plastic dash and the Mercedes having hand rubbed Burled Walnut part of it, but I would expect either to start, run, and drive reliably, along with either to have the power windows go up and down when I use the buttons, the air conditioner work, and the door and window seals keeping out the water, etc.
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Utclmjmpr

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2016, 11:59:35 AM »
  The "industry" also has to deal with every dipstick in the world that was never required to learn to tie his shoes correctly.>>>Dan
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scottydl

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2016, 03:45:39 PM »
I wish there was a way to follow threads on here

Quick administrator note: RVforum.net threads can easily be followed/subscribed by clicking the "Notify" button, one of the options just above the first post in any thread.  In your user profile, you can choose to receive an e-mail notification anytime a reply is made to one of your subscribed threads (whether you started it, posted in it, or are just "watching" it).

Disregard if you already know that, and are referring to following that the "rvdailyreport.com" link that the OP posted.  ;)
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nvrver

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2016, 05:22:50 PM »
Thanks Scott, learned something new today!  Never knew what the Notify button for.   Dick nvrver
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jackiemac

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2016, 05:26:18 PM »
Thanks Scott, learned something new today!  Never knew what the Notify button for.   Dick nvrver

Me neither, I am afraid to start clicking buttons as Tom might tell me off! :o
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TonyDtorch

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2016, 06:21:25 PM »
A very wealthy friend I know bought a brand new Newell and then a brand new Lincoln Navigator as a toad.
 He and his wife set off out on this epic cross-continental tour...but.. there were some issues that came up !

  It blew an oil line ( rubbed through on a brace ) in upstate NY and soaked the whole underside of the coach and the Lincoln,.... and there were several other lesser issues.

yes...Newell took care of everything as they should on a $ 2.1 mil. purchase.

 

The Navy even takes every multi million dollar, very well engineered, and very quality controlled very complex ship out for a shakedown cruise.....just to see what will go wrong.

same thing with an RV ... It's a hand made, very complex self contained house and vehicle,..... and stuff goes wrong on the brand new untested ones.... That's why people tell you to buy used ones.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 07:19:40 PM by TonyDtorch »

Quillback 424

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2016, 06:48:23 PM »
Some of you may have read that China is building 500 RV parks this year to the tune of $5-6 billion American. I imagine they have already purchased one of every type of American made RV at every price point and reverse engineered everything on board. We'll probably see their excess production in a very few years.
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Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2016, 06:51:20 PM »
Quote
Just because I buy a Ford Focus for $18,000 instead of a Mercedes for $200,000 doesn't mean I should have to accept a vehicle that doesn't do what it was intended to do.

No argument about the scale of models, but I don't believe the Focus is the equivalent of even a basic gas chassis motorhome. It costs the Big Three US automakers upwards of 1 Billion dollars and many years to design & test each new vehicle, with many of them running $2B just to get them into production. They have to sell 100,000+ of each model yearly for several years to recoup those costs (the Focus sells about 200k annually). How many Thor Hurricanes or Winne Adventurers sell each year?   No RV gets - or can afford - anywhere near that level of engineering and testing.

An entry level motorhome is more like a Yugo than a Focus.  ;)
Gary
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Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2016, 06:58:48 PM »
Quote
I imagine they have already purchased one of every type of American made RV at every price point and reverse engineered everything on board.

Heck, they don't even need to do that. They can buy all the components from the same manufacturers anyway. And of course, they can copy those too. They already produce some of the electronic components (how many of you have WFCO converters?), and RV water heaters, pumps, furnaces, absorption fridges, and such are all age-old designs, similar to what is widely used in many regions anyway. And they have plenty of cheap tires available too!

I expect to see more and more Chinese-made RV components in the near future, which the RV makers will gladly snap up as further cost reductions. The vendors of RV components will be the first ones to feel the shock of lost sales.
Gary
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TonyDtorch

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2016, 07:21:40 PM »
Heck, they don't even need to do that. They can buy all the components from the same manufacturers anyway. And of course, they can copy those too. They already produce some of the electronic components (how many of you have WFCO converters?), and RV water heaters, pumps, furnaces, absorption fridges, and such are all age-old designs, similar to what is widely used in many regions anyway. And they have plenty of cheap tires available too!

I expect to see more and more Chinese-made RV components in the near future, which the RV makers will gladly snap up as further cost reductions. The vendors of RV components will be the first ones to feel the shock of lost sales.

Gary,  it kinda looks like they bought the whole Rexhall RV co. to me.  I believe Bill Rex is making electric buses and RVs for a Chinese parent company. ..
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 07:32:37 PM by TonyDtorch »

MYRV2

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2016, 08:03:27 PM »
A very wealthy friend I know bought a brand new Newell and then a brand new Lincoln Navigator as a toad.
 He and his wife set off out on this epic cross-continental tour...but.. there were some issues that came up !

  It blew an oil line ( rubbed through on a brace ) in upstate NY and soaked the whole underside of the coach and the Lincoln,.... and there were several other lesser issues.

yes...Newell took care of everything as they should on a $ 2.1 mil. purchase.

The Navy even takes every multi million dollar, very well engineered, and very quality controlled very complex ship out for a shakedown cruise.....just to see what will go wrong.

same thing with an RV ... It's a hand made, very complex self contained house and vehicle,..... and stuff goes wrong on the brand new untested ones.... That's why people tell you to buy used ones.

that's why whenevery I buy a coach I put it up on my lift and check it out... all kinds of stuff waiting to go bad under there...

now since the alpine moved in... guess I have to get a 50,000 lb lift... :P
Edit: Removed excess white space.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2016, 09:00:37 PM by Tom »
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MYRV2

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2016, 08:09:03 PM »
2004 alpine 400 hp 1200 tq dp
towing 216 jeepjku, or triple axel custom inclosed

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2016, 08:10:46 PM »
Quote
it kinda looks like they bought the whole Rexhall RV co. to me.  I believe Bill Rex is making electric buses and RVs for a Chinese parent company.

Buses, anyway. I think the RV things got put on the back burner, but it could come back to the fore at any moment. Haven't heard much of it lately, though.
Gary
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TonyDtorch

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2016, 08:20:49 PM »
Buses, anyway. I think the RV things got put on the back burner, but it could come back to the fore at any moment. Haven't heard much of it lately, though.

The Chinese got the bid on a electric bus contract for Long Beach Ca. ....rather smart of them to buy an existing struggling custom vehicle manufacturing co. and skip a lot of gov. red tape.

I think it's referred to as     "a global economy"... :)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 08:34:36 PM by TonyDtorch »

PBG

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2016, 10:13:38 AM »
From the perspective of one who's considering the purchase of his first motorhome, I'm one of the 90% who are doing exactly what the recent RVIA study stated: Doing the bulk of my research online and absorbing all the information I can find in the forums and on YouTube. Yes, I've visited numerous dealerships and with few exceptions during the first visit I keep hearing the phrase, "what's it going to take for you to buy today?" I provide an honest response...

- Sell me a new 42' - 45' top tier, brand name motorhome that you can promise will allow me to spend my leisurely time enjoying it while traveling the USA and not worrying about how to fix things that brake and ones that should have been caught at the factory and I'll consider writing a check today.

- Find me one where the slides will work as promised, that doesn't squeak, creak and leak and is built with quality in mind through every step of the manufacturing process and is road and field tested prior to delivery and possibly I'll buy today.

- Show me that you have a training program that will teach me how to operate this safely and have confidence in knowing how to work the systems properly and we'll sit down at your desk to fill out the contract.

- Let me know that your techs have been properly trained and know how to inspect it before I drive it off the lot to insure a pleasant user experience.

- Put in writing that you will provide prompt service that fixes things that break in a timely manner and when I'm on the road you'll get me into remote service locations with a single phone call so that I don't have to worry about if the issue is being caused by the house, chassis or another component so that my down time is limited. Camping out at service centers for weeks awaiting service is not my idea of a recreational activity. (Aren't these supposed to be Recreational Vehicles?)

- If the same thing keeps breaking and I've given you ample time to fix it, you'll be as fair to me as a car dealership or a reputable home builder and find a way to make things right.

- Don't make me sign documents that take way any rights I may have should I end up with a lemon and that the company that manufactures it stands behind its products and has a method of providing me quality service by professionals trained on its motorhomes so that I don't keep hearing that I have to drive 2,000 miles to obtain factory service and yes, I'll buy today.

Crickets.

It seems the salespeople and manufacturers I've come in contact with to date are selling the dream, but don't have methods of backing up what they are saying.

So yes, I'm reading the RV Daily Report series and I applaud its effort in bringing these issues to light. I don't know his motives, but I'm glad he's taking the time to do it. I can only hope the RV industry provides a valid response to the issues that surface through that series.

Not being a mechanic or one who has strong DYI skills, honestly I'm considering walking away as I don't want my dream of traveling by motorhome to be a nightmare. I'm hoping the RV industry takes these reports seriously and understands there's folks like me who are not afraid of writing a $400K check, but due to the countless forum threads that speak of motorhomes from all brands in my price range that are poorly made, include components that often fail, wiring and plumbing that is poorly assembled and the long waits to get things fixed, I may simply walk away without buying. Don't get me wrong, this has been a dream of mine for decades and I've worked long and hard for this privilege. And yes, I'm miffed on what has happened to this industry.

I'm sure there will be people who will tell me to buy used, but I'm one of those rare birds who want to buy new and have the latest in safety and engineering.

Maybe I'm just not the right type of person to buy a motorhome and I'm learning that maybe that's true. If so, it's a shame as it's something I've wanted to do for the past 30 years and now I'm ready, willing and able to follow my dream and am close to the point of walking away.

Honestly, considering that most new buyers read about the high level of complaints with quality control issues and long wait times to get service I can't be the only one who's getting scared away from buying. While I've been working towards this moment where I can easily afford just about any motorhome I want, just reading about the lack of quality control measures and the difficulties new owners face have given me great pause in my long awaited plans to do something I dreamed of for decades.

I'll close this long post by saying this:

If there's a dealer or a manufacturer that can offer a solution, please post in this thread as I can only guess I'm not the only potential buyer who wants to hear what you have to say.

I sure hope I don't hear the sound of crickets again.

kdbgoat

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Re: rv death spriral
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2016, 01:28:42 PM »
PBG- I'm with you on that. I certainly can't write a $400k check, but I can afford something more reasonable to me. I don't necessarily have to have new. I want to get a motorhome, so the only tbing I can come up with is buy a used one and redo it to my liking. That's not what I want to do,  but don't see much other way. I need to print out your "salesman list" and start taking it with me.
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