rv death spriral

Some of you may have read that China is building 500 RV parks this year to the tune of $5-6 billion American. I imagine they have already purchased one of every type of American made RV at every price point and reverse engineered everything on board. We'll probably see their excess production in a very few years.

Just because I buy a Ford Focus for $18,000 instead of a Mercedes for $200,000 doesn't mean I should have to accept a vehicle that doesn't do what it was intended to do.

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No argument about the scale of models, but I don't believe the Focus is the equivalent of even a basic gas chassis motorhome. It costs the Big Three US automakers upwards of 1 Billion dollars and many years to design & test each new vehicle, with many of them running $2B just to get them into production. They have to sell 100,000+ of each model yearly for several years to recoup those costs (the Focus sells about 200k annually). How many Thor Hurricanes or Winne Adventurers sell each year?  No RV gets - or can afford - anywhere near that level of engineering and testing.

An entry level motorhome is more like a Yugo than a Focus. 

I imagine they have already purchased one of every type of American made RV at every price point and reverse engineered everything on board.

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Heck, they don't even need to do that. They can buy all the components from the same manufacturers anyway. And of course, they can copy those too. They already produce some of the electronic components (how many of you have WFCO converters?), and RV water heaters, pumps, furnaces, absorption fridges, and such are all age-old designs, similar to what is widely used in many regions anyway. And they have plenty of cheap tires available too!

I expect to see more and more Chinese-made RV components in the near future, which the RV makers will gladly snap up as further cost reductions. The vendors of RV components will be the first ones to feel the shock of lost sales.

Gary RV Roamer said:

Heck, they don't even need to do that. They can buy all the components from the same manufacturers anyway. And of course, they can copy those too. They already produce some of the electronic components (how many of you have WFCO converters?), and RV water heaters, pumps, furnaces, absorption fridges, and such are all age-old designs, similar to what is widely used in many regions anyway. And they have plenty of cheap tires available too!

I expect to see more and more Chinese-made RV components in the near future, which the RV makers will gladly snap up as further cost reductions. The vendors of RV components will be the first ones to feel the shock of lost sales.

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Gary,  it kinda looks like they bought the whole Rexhall RV co. to me.  I believe Bill Rex is making electric buses and RVs for a Chinese parent company. ..

TonyDtorch said:

A very wealthy friend I know bought a brand new Newell and then a brand new Lincoln Navigator as a toad.
He and his wife set off out on this epic cross-continental tour...but.. there were some issues that came up !

  It blew an oil line ( rubbed through on a brace ) in upstate NY and soaked the whole underside of the coach and the Lincoln,.... and there were several other lesser issues.

yes...Newell took care of everything as they should on a $ 2.1 mil. purchase.

The Navy even takes every multi million dollar, very well engineered, and very quality controlled very complex ship out for a shakedown cruise.....just to see what will go wrong.

same thing with an RV ... It's a hand made, very complex self contained house and vehicle,..... and stuff goes wrong on the brand new untested ones.... That's why people tell you to buy used ones.

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that's why whenevery I buy a coach I put it up on my lift and check it out... all kinds of stuff waiting to go bad under there...

now since the alpine moved in... guess I have to get a 50,000 lb lift...
Edit: Removed excess white space.

https://youtu.be/XyL8TzAmf8I

it kinda looks like they bought the whole Rexhall RV co. to me.  I believe Bill Rex is making electric buses and RVs for a Chinese parent company.

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Buses, anyway. I think the RV things got put on the back burner, but it could come back to the fore at any moment. Haven't heard much of it lately, though.

Gary RV Roamer said:

Buses, anyway. I think the RV things got put on the back burner, but it could come back to the fore at any moment. Haven't heard much of it lately, though.

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The Chinese got the bid on a electric bus contract for Long Beach Ca. ....rather smart of them to buy an existing struggling custom vehicle manufacturing co. and skip a lot of gov. red tape.

I think it's referred to as    "a global economy"...

From the perspective of one who's considering the purchase of his first motorhome, I'm one of the 90% who are doing exactly what the recent RVIA study stated: Doing the bulk of my research online and absorbing all the information I can find in the forums and on YouTube. Yes, I've visited numerous dealerships and with few exceptions during the first visit I keep hearing the phrase, "what's it going to take for you to buy today?" I provide an honest response...

- Sell me a new 42' - 45' top tier, brand name motorhome that you can promise will allow me to spend my leisurely time enjoying it while traveling the USA and not worrying about how to fix things that brake and ones that should have been caught at the factory and I'll consider writing a check today.

- Find me one where the slides will work as promised, that doesn't squeak, creak and leak and is built with quality in mind through every step of the manufacturing process and is road and field tested prior to delivery and possibly I'll buy today.

- Show me that you have a training program that will teach me how to operate this safely and have confidence in knowing how to work the systems properly and we'll sit down at your desk to fill out the contract.

- Let me know that your techs have been properly trained and know how to inspect it before I drive it off the lot to insure a pleasant user experience.

- Put in writing that you will provide prompt service that fixes things that break in a timely manner and when I'm on the road you'll get me into remote service locations with a single phone call so that I don't have to worry about if the issue is being caused by the house, chassis or another component so that my down time is limited. Camping out at service centers for weeks awaiting service is not my idea of a recreational activity. (Aren't these supposed to be Recreational Vehicles?)

- If the same thing keeps breaking and I've given you ample time to fix it, you'll be as fair to me as a car dealership or a reputable home builder and find a way to make things right.

- Don't make me sign documents that take way any rights I may have should I end up with a lemon and that the company that manufactures it stands behind its products and has a method of providing me quality service by professionals trained on its motorhomes so that I don't keep hearing that I have to drive 2,000 miles to obtain factory service and yes, I'll buy today.

Crickets.

It seems the salespeople and manufacturers I've come in contact with to date are selling the dream, but don't have methods of backing up what they are saying.

So yes, I'm reading the RV Daily Report series and I applaud its effort in bringing these issues to light. I don't know his motives, but I'm glad he's taking the time to do it. I can only hope the RV industry provides a valid response to the issues that surface through that series.

Not being a mechanic or one who has strong DYI skills, honestly I'm considering walking away as I don't want my dream of traveling by motorhome to be a nightmare. I'm hoping the RV industry takes these reports seriously and understands there's folks like me who are not afraid of writing a $400K check, but due to the countless forum threads that speak of motorhomes from all brands in my price range that are poorly made, include components that often fail, wiring and plumbing that is poorly assembled and the long waits to get things fixed, I may simply walk away without buying. Don't get me wrong, this has been a dream of mine for decades and I've worked long and hard for this privilege. And yes, I'm miffed on what has happened to this industry.

I'm sure there will be people who will tell me to buy used, but I'm one of those rare birds who want to buy new and have the latest in safety and engineering.

Maybe I'm just not the right type of person to buy a motorhome and I'm learning that maybe that's true. If so, it's a shame as it's something I've wanted to do for the past 30 years and now I'm ready, willing and able to follow my dream and am close to the point of walking away.

Honestly, considering that most new buyers read about the high level of complaints with quality control issues and long wait times to get service I can't be the only one who's getting scared away from buying. While I've been working towards this moment where I can easily afford just about any motorhome I want, just reading about the lack of quality control measures and the difficulties new owners face have given me great pause in my long awaited plans to do something I dreamed of for decades.

I'll close this long post by saying this:

If there's a dealer or a manufacturer that can offer a solution, please post in this thread as I can only guess I'm not the only potential buyer who wants to hear what you have to say.

I sure hope I don't hear the sound of crickets again.

PBG- I'm with you on that. I certainly can't write a $400k check, but I can afford something more reasonable to me. I don't necessarily have to have new. I want to get a motorhome, so the only tbing I can come up with is buy a used one and redo it to my liking. That's not what I want to do,  but don't see much other way. I need to print out your "salesman list" and start taking it with me.

TonyDtorch said:

Gary,  it kinda looks like they bought the whole Rexhall RV co. to me.  I believe Bill Rex is making electric buses and RVs for a Chinese parent company. ..

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I drive through Lancaster, CA a couple of times a week on my way to one of our transmitter sites.  Rexhall has moved their RV manufacturing from their former factory to their much smaller sales and service center adjacent to Hwy 14 and are only building RVs to order.  Occasionally I'll see one under construction in one of their service bays but it's not what I'd call a full production factory.

The main factory was sold to Chinese bus maker BYD in 2013 to make electric buses for the US market, with Bill Rex and several key employees staying on to run the factory.  Read between the lines of this article and it seems RV production is but an afterthought.

https://rv-pro.com/news/rexhall-industries-relocates-hq-bill-rex-becomes-byd-electric-bus-factory-gm

They also built a Lithium Iron Phosphate battery plant two miles away in an old Budweiser facility.  Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries compare favorably to the Lithium Ion batteries used by Tesla, etc.

http://theavtimes.com/2013/05/01/lancaster-welcomes-byd/

well, IMO they built a pretty decent motorhome, 

  but 'another one bites the dust' ...as they say.

.

Here is part 2

http://rvdailyreport.com/opinion/rv-death-spiral-manufacturers-in-race-to-the-bottom/

Consumer Rights Lawyer:

http://rvtravel.com/why-you-should-not-buy-an-rv/

PBG said:

I'm sure there will be people who will tell me to buy used, but I'm one of those rare birds who want to buy new and have the latest in safety and engineering.

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Nothing wrong with that (especially since you can afford it), but it's important to realize that not a whole lot has changed in motorhome/bus safety and engineering over the last several years.  There may be more superficial creature comforts available in some newer models, but otherwise you don't get much more for buying new.

PBG said:

Maybe I'm just not the right type of person to buy a motorhome and I'm learning that maybe that's true. If so, it's a shame as it's something I've wanted to do for the past 30 years and now I'm ready, willing and able to follow my dream and am close to the point of walking away.

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You have a pretty realistic and detailed outlook on things, but I don't know if that "abandoning ship" is really what you need to do here.  However it IS important for anyone considering RV'ing to realize that some tinkering is involved to keep these rigs working right.  It doesn't mean you will have to do it all yourself, but that means you'll be paying someone else to do it.  RV's are houses bouncing down the road, so from a practical perspective it makes sense that things will come loose and need ongoing maintenance.  Buying high-end will get you better quality interior materials, so that should minimize some of those issues.

Heck if you have $400k available for an RV purchase, maybe look at a $300k unit instead and set aside $100k for repairs (most of which you'll probably never need).  Most of us have units that are WELL under $100k (and my combo was barely 15% of that!) and we've had a great time doing the RV thing.  You'll be fine. 

Here's Part 3 and this explains a lot.

http://rvdailyreport.com/opinion/rv-death-spiral-suppliers-in-a-tough-spot/

Opinions and advice welcomed!

That is a pretty decent article, covering a lot of the factors that make it difficult to achieve any quality improvement. I don't think of it as a "death spiral", though, but it does preserve the status quo (which is mediocrity).

One of the underlying problems is that it's a fairly low volume business, averaging about 30k new units/month even in the current good times. Motorhome sales, A, B & C together, are a mere 4k/month. Contrast with the auto industry, that sells around 1400K units/month (and that's doesn't count anything bigger than a pick-up truck either). Most of those sales are travel trailers and toward the low end in both size and price. Suppliers build pretty much the same a/c or furnace or water heater for those as for the higher end models, sharing as much of the components and costs as possible. That puts a lot of price pressure on those appliances, in addition to design constraints that make them only marginal in larger rigs. 

The RVIA could do a lot to develop and promote new standards and thus assure that suppliers would have a market for a new and better product, but they do little of that. The auto industry learned long ago to work together through the neutral SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) to develop component standards they could share that would enable mass production of components and entice competition among their suppliers as well. So, RVs still have to sandwich a roof a/c to fit in the 14x14 roof opening used by the original Ventline roof vent since around 1970, even though it makes the air handling noisy and inefficient and limits the btu output severely. An attempt by Airxcel (aka Coleman-Mach) to get around that with a basement air product failed to garner enough customers to be viable, since only larger Class A units could employ it.  A much better roof air could be built around a 20x20 roof opening and even small trailers could use that size, but the industry has failed to develop a new standard so that a/c and roof vent manufacturers could design improved products to fit it with the assurance that there will be a customer for it when ready. There is simply no impetus in the RVIA to change anything except to avoid federally imposed safety standards. They have committees that work with the NEC (electrical code) and NFPA (fire safety), but they don't work within the RV industry to develop ways to build a better RV. Heck, if even one major manufacturer, e.g. Thor or Forest River, committed to a new standard design, it would probably be practical to get it into production, but they don't seem to care.

Gary RV Roamer said:

...but they don't seem to care.

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Those six words seem to sum up the theme of the entire RV industry as they seem to only care about getting them out of the factory quickly and have forgotten the importance of building a quality product.

From the point of view of someone who is shopping for a first motorhome, it's a scary proposition.

I'm just curious and would like to pose a question to the folks on RV Forum:

While this is pie in the sky, if there was an option to pay a fee (let's say 5% of the purchase price) to have a motorhome that's delivered as bug free as humanly possible, would you pay it?

Bought a new 2016 Roadtrek. Delivered at mile 67.
I ordered it specifically - took 3 months for them to build.
Emphasized to dealer "check it out well!"
2 major coach problems - 1 cut a trip short when I was 1,000 miles out.
No service where I was.
11 minor coach problems - should have been found at dealer check out.
Fit and finish only moderate.
Looks like poor quality control at the factory, AND the dealer obviously did NOT check it out.
Won't buy another or recommend Roadtrek.

PBG said:

Those six words seem to sum up the theme of the entire RV industry as they seem to only care about getting them out of the factory quickly and have forgotten the importance of building a quality product.

From the point of view of someone who is shopping for a first motorhome, it's a scary proposition.

I'm just curious and would like to pose a question to the folks on RV Forum:

While this is pie in the sky, if there was an option to pay a fee (let's say 5% of the purchase price) to have a motorhome that's delivered as bug free as humanly possible, would you pay it?

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Sure I would pay it, but 5% would not even come close to making the product bug free, and therein lies the problem.

dcbinvt said:

Bought a new 2016 Roadtrek. Delivered at mile 67.
I ordered it specifically - took 3 months for them to build.
Emphasized to dealer "check it out well!"
2 major coach problems - 1 cut a trip short when I was 1,000 miles out.
No service where I was.
11 minor coach problems - should have been found at dealer check out.
Fit and finish only moderate.
Looks like poor quality control at the factory, AND the dealer obviously did NOT check it out.
Won't buy another or recommend Roadtrek.

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I would have thought you would hold the dealer's feet to the fire by asking what all was checked out on the RV, did they find any problems, and if so, did they fix them before you took delivery, so when problems arose you could at least call them liars.