rv death spriral

sadixon49 said:

Yea but, you can sure flush the toilet. and ensure it works and doesn't leak, without have to crap in it.

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that test will only tell you the toilet will pass water...but what about other stuff ?

and will that toilet not leak after 2,000 miles with 'other stuff' in it ?  you can drive a new motorhome 2,ooo miles in a couple days.

a new owner expects it to first go comfortably bouncing down the road at 75mph,  then extend/retract the slides unlevel, cook dinner, shower with hot water, sleep in heated room, watch satellite TV,... all in a driving wind and rain storm with an overnight freeze with then stay cool for the 120 degree next day...without a single glitch.

technically, brand new = untested in RV's... unless you want a factory QC service tech to actually take a cross country vacation in your brand new motorhome. 

TonyDtorch said:

that test will only tell you the toilet will pass water...but what about other stuff ?

and will that toilet not leak after 2,000 miles with 'other stuff' in it ?  you can drive a new motorhome 2,000 miles in a couple days.

a new owner expects it to first go comfortably bouncing down the road at 75mph,  then extend/retract the slides unlevel, cook dinner, shower with hot water, sleep in heated room, watch satellite TV,... all in a driving wind and rain storm with an overnight freeze with then stay cool for the 120 degree next day...without a single glitch.

technically, brand new = untested in RV's... unless you want a factory QC service tech to actually take a cross country vacation in your brand new motorhome. 

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My motorhome, a 2016 Thor FE22, has less than 1000 miles on it. It's been out 3 weekends, for 5 overnight stays, and has had the water heater fail, 4 weeks at the dealer, and now the toilet will no longer hold water in the bowl, leaking thru the seal. At no time was it driven hard, it was never out in a storm or cold weather, I waited until there was no freezing weather in the long term forecasts before commissioning the water system, the mileage has been easy, most of the miles have been either predelivery or trips to the dealer. Less than 300 actual camping miles. I just wish they could do better.

As for field testing, they don't need to be tested in every situation, if they would just test them once at the factory they would get way more than 50% of these problems. The point is they don't test them, because they don't want to know they've got problems. They just ship them off to the dealers, hoping the PDI won't catch them, then they can blame the problems on  something the owner did or didn't do, tie it up in finger pointing from manufacturer, to supplier, to dealer, to purchaser, for a year and when your warranty is gone, well you're on your own. That's how it seems to work.

PBG said:

Yes, I'm starting to consider the possibility of a pre-owned Foretravel and quite possibly an older Prevost over a new Cornerstone or Grand Tour. Less sizzle and features, but proven models.

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This thread is getting to the reason why so many of us buy (and recommend) gently used RV's over brand new ones.  You let someone else take the depreciation hit, and many of those "new RV shakedown" issues have already been handled.

scottydl said:

This thread is getting to the reason why so many of us buy (and recommend) gently used RV's over brand new ones.  You let someone else take the depreciation hit, and many of those "new RV shakedown" issues have already been handled.

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Just since the RV Daily Report series has been released, I've changed from looking at top tier Class A's to pre-owned Foretravel and Prevost models.

I rarely get into this often discussed new vs used RV because I have purchased both.

But, I guarantee that I will have more time and experience hiding my mistakes, poor workmanship and lackadaisical approach to maintenance and repair from you, the used purchaser, than the factory installers ever had hiding the same from me, the new purchaser.

When the factory installers win this game I have a warranty to cover the costs of repair. When I win this game it will be on your dime, period.

Just a note to say the 4th section is now out, "dealers drop the ball on service".http://rvdailyreport.com/opinion/rv-industry-death-spiral-part-4-dealers-drop-the-ball-on-service/

sadixon49 said:

Just a note to say the 4th section is now out, "dealers drop the ball on service".http://rvdailyreport.com/opinion/rv-industry-death-spiral-part-4-dealers-drop-the-ball-on-service/

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Ugh. This just keeps getting stranger.

I'm not one to jump on the "RV death spiral" bandwagon, largely because I don't necessarily agree - most indicators point in the other direction, but I DO believe there's a lot of room for improvement.

I just got off the phone with some good friends whom we've been camping with for years. When it comes to RV ownership, they've been around the block - having owned several new and used Class A motorhomes and trailers. We've been planning a trip to Oregon with them for about a year, and we're due to leave in a few weeks. In April, they bought a brand new (2016) 35 foot gas Class A. Folks, you would not believe all the problems they've had with this new coach (sadly, maybe you would) I'm talking about major components on both the house and chassis that must be replaced.

The upper corners on both sides of the front cap have to be replaced (they've shifted!) A roof A/C unit has to be replaced as well as the power steering pump, a leveling jack, the hydraulic pump for the jacks, several dash-air components, the bottom freezer door of the residential fridge (it's bent and won't close), there's an inoperative tail light... the list goes on and on. And they just learned through a VIN check that when the coach was being delivered to the dealership from the factory, the driver had to leave it at a Ford dealership so some chassis electrical components could be replaced.

These are some very positive, hard working folks who paid well over $100,000.00 for their new coach - only to have this happen to them. They are so discouraged that they just wish they had their old trailer back. They say that the dealer and manufacturer have been helpful and supportive, but that only goes so far. They're probably not going to be able to go on the trip with us, and I couldn't think of a thing to say to make them feel better. Maybe the industry is in a death spiral, maybe it's not - I don't know. But I DO know that there's a hell of a lot of room for improvement - especially in quality control.

Kev

The RV manufacturer thinks the pre-delivery prep/check is included in the price (the MSRP). Dealers bargain it away as they strive to win customers with a low price. You might remember that the next time you demand a 30% discount on that new RV....

Gary RV Roamer said:

The RV manufacturer thinks the pre-delivery prep/check is included in the price (the MSRP). Dealers bargain it away as they strive to win customers with a low price. You might remember that the next time you demand a 30% discount on that new RV....

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it would be like buying a wholesale motorcycle @ 30% off MSRP. ...."here's your crate, put it together and let us know if anything is wrong."...but much worse.

For close to 30 years I've had a business that cleans boats for dealers. Everything from 11' tenders to 3 million dollar 70' yachts.

What's being discussed in this topic is not specific to the RV industry.

You would think a 2 million dollar yacht would show up from the factory ready to go, nope, takes a week to get it ready if nothing is wrong. I've made an excellent living cleaning up from the factory and the techs that prep these things.

You would also think if a tech were working on a million+ dollar yacht they might remove their shoes or put down some protective floor covering, nope, not their yacht. More money for me.

Broken toilets? Blown motors? Power anything? It all comes in not working, some are worse than others.

I'm usually the last guy on a delivery before the customer shows up. I can't count how many times I've told the service department about things they missed from scratches to leaking anything. We've cleaned close to 20,000 boats in almost 30 years and it's progressively gotten worse.

Not sure what the problem is, probablly cheap labor at the factories and cheap parts in an attempt to make more money for the share holders.

But rest assured it's not just one industry.

One problem is there's no real incentive for a dealer or manufacturer to expedite warranty repairs.  They have their money at the time of the sale, so it's to their financial advantage to invest as little as possible on repairs.  Often this results in a DMV-like experience for the owner, where it's more economical to make them wait in a queue for parts or for a service technician to work on their unit instead of front-loading the system to provide a better consumer experience.

Maybe one solution would be in the form of a hold-back at time of purchase - say the purchaser pays 90% of the agreed on price up front and withholds the final 10% until the warranty expires assuming they've had a satisfactory repair experience?

Another way this might work would be to make the manufacturer or dealer responsible for paying the interest on the purchase loan during the time the RV is out of service for warranty repairs.  If an RV is out of service for 3 weeks between the time a purchaser reports a defect to the time the RV is returned to them fully repaired, the dealer or manufacturer gets to pay 3 weeks worth of interest on the purchase loan.  Let the manufacturer and dealer fight it out among themselves as to who's responsible for the delay.  Suddenly it's to their financial advantage to optimize the repair experience.

It's not fair to expect an RV owner to not only be deprived of the use of his new RV for weeks or months at a time while basic QC problems are corrected, but also expecting him to pay the accumulating loan interest while the RV is not in his possession is crazy.

tcg- at least the boat industry is going through them to get them right before the customer get them.
Lou- I have often thought the dealer or manufacturer should pay the full amount of money on the loan, not just interest. If they have it in their possession, they "rent" it. I'll start paying again when it's in my possession. I'm not talking about a two day, two night stay for repairs, I'm talking about when it's in for an extended time.

New chapter posted: http://rvdailyreport.com/opinion/rv-industry-death-spiral-part-5-campgrounds-losing-capacity/

We cleaned a 3 million dollar yacht today. I noticed "that smell" you know a leaking holding tank smell. Turns out it shipped from the factory with a 4" hole in the holding tank that was fixed at the factory with tape.

Go figure.

Wow! An excellent article and even better than the one I have been contemplating writing myself. To be honest, I wasn't sure if I any of my regular outlets would publish it when/if I did write it!

The shoddy campground websites and unresponsiveness to web forms and email is one of my pet peeves. I may be 72 YO, but I use the internet to find and check out campsites, see rates, make reservations etc. A website need not be fancy to handle the basics, and to fail to respond promptly to an email inquiry, especially one invited by the website, is absurd! Why "bother" to promote your campground online if you are going to ignore online customers anyway?

I guess we're next. He's hit manufacturers, suppliers, dealers, and now campgrounds, that just leaves consumers as the last part of the problem. I think I can take it. I know we got it coming.

Article 6 in the series, dealing with RV "associations"

http://rvdailyreport.com/opinion/rv-industry-death-spiral-part-6-associations-can-influence-change/

The shortcomings of the RVIA are another of my pet peeves. They could be doing so much to promote quality manufacturing, RV owner education, dealership service & support, and the overall RVing experience, yet their only idea seem to be more pictures of smiling couples next to an RV by an idyllic lake. Like that was real!  They seem to think they do a lot, but in practice they just apply whitewash everywhere.

Also, an interview with the author of the series, Greg Gerber:
http://www.rvbusiness.com/2016/07/the-buzz-whats-with-gerbers-death-spiral/

An interesting series of articles and great discussion. Thanks for your posts!
Being an RV "wannabe", the articles have given me no small amount of concern about whether to take the plunge or not.  I was already convinced that a "gently used" Class A was the way to go and nothing I've read here changes that.  But the eye-opening part for me was the service issues - the time spent waiting to get your coach into service and then waiting to get it out.  Not to mention the lack of trained technicians to work on it when it does get in. 
The QC issue certainly rings true. You have only to read the myriad posts on this board to see that.  But, if two of the manufacturers control 83% of the market, why should we be surprised?  Where's their incentive to focus on quality?  Make it bright and shiny and get it sold.  It reminds me of the old Saturday Night Live skit (and I mean OLD) talking about the phone company - "We're Ma Bell.  We don't care.  We don't have to".

Rocky, first welcome aboard, glad to have you here. The service you get as a paying customer, is much better than the service I would get as a warranty claim.