rv death spriral

Rocky - When I need work done on my RV I call a mobile mechanic. Solves all the problems of dealing with a dealership.

The service you get as a paying customer, is much better than the service I would get as a warranty claim.

Click to expand...

That hasn't been my experience, but it surely depends a lot on the individual dealer.

Rocky Road said:

An interesting series of articles and great discussion. Thanks for your posts!
Being an RV "wannabe", the articles have given me no small amount of concern about whether to take the plunge or not.  I was already convinced that a "gently used" Class A was the way to go and nothing I've read here changes that.  But the eye-opening part for me was the service issues - the time spent waiting to get your coach into service and then waiting to get it out.  Not to mention the lack of trained technicians to work on it when it does get in. 
The QC issue certainly rings true. You have only to read the myriad posts on this board to see that.  But, if two of the manufacturers control 83% of the market, why should we be surprised?  Where's their incentive to focus on quality?  Make it bright and shiny and get it sold.  It reminds me of the old Saturday Night Live skit (and I mean OLD) talking about the phone company - "We're Ma Bell.  We don't care.  We don't have to".

Click to expand...

Certainly agree on looking for gently used.  We've done that X3 (upgrading each time) and it has worked for us. 

The service issue is a challenge, depending on where you are.  We own a Country Coach and if we lived in Oregon, service would be a piece of cake.  Since they were originally built there, there are several excellent independent and factory-based repair shops that get them in and out in a reasonable time and do good work.  I think if you live or are traveling near one of the places where there are a lot or RV's (Florida, Texas, AZ for example) you stand a better chance of finding service options.  We live in Virginia in a large metro area and our local options are pretty slim.  There are a couple of shops that do good work but they are overwhelmed and slow.  My coach spent two months in a shop last year for work that actually took 3 -4 days.  It has now been in another shop for two months getting the carpet replaced (had to wait on carpet then wait on installer).  We are leaving soon for a 3 month cross country trip and it will include two stops for service and repairs.... one in Iowa and another at the Winnebago/CC factory in Oregon. 

So, yes, in addition to the ongoing quality concerns there is the service hassle.  I fix what I can myself but when you do need the 'experts' to fix stuff you cannot or will not do yourself, it is not always easy or simple.  I have found mobile RV techs to be a great source when they are available and good. 

My best advice is to look for a good, used, well maintained coach with good bones and expect to spend some bucks upgrading it to your liking.  We bought our current high end rig for less than the price of an entry level new DP and have done our own interior upgrades.  The coach is rock solid.  JMO, the new stuff is not really much different other than it has more glitz and doodads, swirly paint jobs, and complex gizmos that seem to be hard to fix when they do break. 

This whole thread reminds me of a member here, (hasn't been active for a while), RodgerS. For the newer members that didn't see his posts, Rodger was considering getting into RV's and was trying to figure out what would suit him. He was anal about researching EVERYTHING and was good at it. He went as far as taking RV Tech courses and worked in a dealer's service department that rented RV's.  FWIW- after all his research, the motorhome he figured out was the best deal for him overall without going into million dollar+ units was a Newmar.
His conclusion in the end though, was that he was going to put the top down on his Mercedes and tour the country that way.He figured owning an RV wasn't worth the hassle to him.

kdbgoat said:

His conclusion in the end though, was that he was going to put the top down on his Mercedes and tour the country that way.He figured owning an RV wasn't worth the hassle to him.

Click to expand...

From the perspective from someone who's been shopping for his first motorhome the past five months (me), I can say that based on my research, unless you are mechanically inclined, RogerS may have made a smart conclusion. Let's face it, for the price of a top tier Class A motorhome, you could buy a Bentley Convertible and have more than enough money left over to stay at Ritz Carlton's around the country for a number of years. But that's not what I want to do.

This is a sad scenario as there's folks like me who aren't mechanically inclined, but have wanted to have a smooth riding, dependable, spacious motorhome to travel the country on a part time/vacation basis. It's been a lifelong dream that I don't want to be a service nightmare. It's forums such as this one that allows people to be honest in their opinions and experiences that are very valuable to new potential buyers such as myself. Allow me to say, Thank You.

I'm doing my best to let quality, reliability and the availability of timely service drive me to my final decision and it seems that once I hone in on a specific model that will suit my needs, then the long waits for service give me pause. On more than one occasion, having the ability to buy now, I have asked a salesperson about a guarantee of receiving timely service when issues arise and I've yet to receive a response that makes me comfortable with spending this amount of money.

Right now, unless I start looking at pre-owned Prevost or Newell models, the new motorhomes that I would like to consider are the Winnebago Grand Tour or the American Coach Eagle. However, since there's so few user reviews on those specific models, it's difficult to know the challenges faced by the owners and the quality of coach when it was picked up at the dealer. I live in Florida and there's multiple dealers to buy from within a three hour drive. I want to buy locally and don't see the long term benefit to establishing a relationship with a dealer located more than 1,000 miles away. I'd prefer to establish a relationship with a reputable dealer that's located within a reasonable distance who will be there for me when service is needed and can do so without hassle. I haven't found that yet.

It seems that things are moving so fast and furious in this industry that the manufacturers don't have a conscience in letting these units out the door with defects and place the burden on the dealers. From what I've learned so far, it's seems to be the responsibility of the new owner to spot the defects before driving off the lot or to wait in long lines to get these defects fixed. All that time is wasted and the warranty clock is ticking away. From what I've learned so far is that this "death spiral" originates at the manufactures delivering bug-filled units that are taxing the ability of the dealerships to service the needs of is customers.

Greg's series is an eye-opener and it's giving me pause in pulling the motorhome trigger as it's confirmed the same thing I've noticed during my research stage. I'm shocked that none of the manufacturers have gotten out in front of this and to date, none have provided any solutions to make new customers comfortable with buying its products.

I hope this doesn't come off as a rant as that's not my intention. It's just a disappointment. Advice welcomed.

Right now, unless I start looking at pre-owned Prevost or Newell models, the new motorhomes that I would like to consider are the Winnebago Grand Tour or the American Coach Eagle.

Click to expand...

The probability of getting a lemon is about the same whether you choose a Tour or an Eagle. Or a Hurricane, for that matter. Every brand and model builds their share of crap. The Eagle is a much higher-tier model than the Tour and will have features and amenities the Tour does not. That's a given. Whether or not they are things you care about is a another matter, but American Coach is probably attuned to a higher level of customer service as part of what you get for those major extra $$ (we are talking 25%+ extra). Also consider the American Dream or Tradition, which is in the same price tier as the Tour buy still has full "American Coach" experience.

There are other choices besides a Fleetwood and Winnebago,  many people are thinking Enterga Coach is the new Monaco..and Newmar still makes a quality coach.

TonyDtorch said:

There are other choices besides a Fleetwood and Winnebago,  many people are thinking Enterga Coach is the new Monaco..and Newmar still makes a quality coach.

Click to expand...

Entegra makes a fine coach and it seems they are doing a respectable job on customer service and quality control. I drove the 2017 Cornerstone and here's my overview:

Likes:
- Adaptive Cruise Control
- Blind Spot Monitoring
- Cab Forward Design and Visibility
- Smooth Drive
- Easy to Drive
- Steering Axle
- Low noise factor
- Lots of pep
- Exterior Style


Not So Much:
- Dated Interior Style - A bit too traditional for me.
- The quality of the material on the Flexsteel driver and passenger seats seemed very thin and not as robust as the materials on the sofa.
- Layout: It seems that Entegra doesn't like people to watch TV when camped as there's no seating or recliners that face the TV.
- Passenger seat has a strange recline angle when facing the living area...seemed to slide off it and it has a very limited position. Due to the grab rail, it can only recline in one specific position.
- Driver seat recline is somewhat blocked by the steering wheel when facing the salon.
- Inside door handle of the 1/2 bath kept snagging my sweater when exiting (I'm not that big!)
- Floors seemed to be dirt magnets.

All in all, it's a noteworthy coach...if you like the interior styling and floor plan offerings.

FWIW I'm not so sure it's necessary to build a relationship with a dealer.  We've never pursued a dealer relationship in many years of RVing.  Why not?  Because most of the problems happen when you're on the road far from said dealer.  We have had good relationships with the manufacturers, however.  That includes belonging to the Monaco club (when Monaco was a powerhouse), the Cummins customer group, etc.  We've had service done at various Cummins dealers around the country.  We've had interior service done at the Monaco factory service center.  Now that we have an "orphan" coach our work is done at the most logical place, whether it's Onan, Cummins, Aqua Hot or the Monaco service center if that's appropriate.

That said, a brand new coach that has problems is a factory issue and that may be the place to address serious issues.  If the factory doesn't know there is a recurring problem they won't fix it because they don't know it exists.  I seriously doubt that dealers let the manufacturer know of problems they encounter in the products they sell.  It seems like there's a disconnect between the two entities.  Monaco used to have a "Ladies Only" seminar where they heard an earful about problems.  Some actually got fixed!  They also received a lot of good ideas for new items to include in their products.

ArdraF

Most of the coaches from American, Entegra, Winnebago, Newmar use more traditional interiors...wood cabinets of various tones, etc.  If you want the more 'modern' interiors with the glossy laminate cabinets, lots of chrome accents, etc.  you need to look at Newells, Prevost conversions and Foretravel. 

I would agree it is less costly to travel in a car and stay in hotels.  However, many RVr's like us travel with pets (mostly dogs) and that was a big factor when we starting with RV's many years ago.  Plus, my coach is one of my hobbies....I like to maintain it, tweak it, clean it, kind of like having a classic car, only much bigger.  Even when we are on a trip, I get out the tools and fix or improve something because that is what I like to do.  Drives my DW crazy!

That said, I've always thought those of us who own and travel in these beasts are a bit crazy.  There must be something wrong with those of us who are willing to spend the bucks to buy them, spend more bucks to keep them on the road, spend more bucks to upgrade them, spend time sitting in service centers (sometimes days or more) while we pay someone to fix stuff we can't fix, etc.  But we seem to love the mode of travel and we do see some great things and meet some nice folks along the way.  But, we must be a bit crazy...

2dalake said:

Most of the coaches from American, Entegra, Winnebago, Newmar use more traditional interiors...wood cabinets of various tones, etc.  If you want the more 'modern' interiors with the glossy laminate cabinets, lots of chrome accents, etc.  you need to look at Newells, Prevost conversions and Foretravel. 

Click to expand...

Regarding Foretravel, I visited the factory a few months ago and while I like its coaches, I wasn't too impressed with the factory. Just an opinion. Also, unless you live in the Great State of Texas, obtaining warranty service can be a challenge. For the Realm, there's only one dealer and it's my understanding they don't do warranty house service. But, it's a gorgeous coach.

2dalake said:

I would agree it is less costly to travel in a car and stay in hotels.  However, many RVr's like us travel with pets (mostly dogs) and that was a big factor when we starting with RV's many years ago.

Click to expand...

Yes, I'm a Dog person!

2dalake said:

That said, I've always thought those of us who own and travel in these beasts are a bit crazy.  There must be something wrong with those of us who are willing to spend the bucks to buy them, spend more bucks to keep them on the road, spend more bucks to upgrade them, spend time sitting in service centers (sometimes days or more) while we pay someone to fix stuff we can't fix, etc.  But we seem to love the mode of travel and we do see some great things and meet some nice folks along the way.  But, we must be a bit crazy...

Click to expand...

I've been called worse names than crazy! But, I do my homework. However, I don't see the recreation in fixing things myself. The availability of reliable and timely service is a big factor for me.

I am not done with all the articles but will be reading them this weekend. I have not yet bought my motorhome but we were definitely getting a used one. I am still nervous though.  I work in the legal field and wondered have there been any class action lawsuits regarding campers and RVs and the difficulty in getting them fixed?  I would not hesitate to sue a manufacturer if I had to, especially if I bought a new RV. 

But what is a RV customer to do?  I would love to be able to buy an Allegro or something along that line. I have heard they are the best but they are way out of my price range. We want a motorhome in the next couple of years to start using on weekends with the eventual plan to retire and live in it full time.  But neither of us is mechanical and we don?t have unlimited funds. I can fix some things but not much. What about extended warranties on used motorhomes?  Are they worth it?

jjarman123 said:

I am not done with all the articles but will be reading them this weekend. I have not yet bought my motorhome but we were definitely getting a used one. I am still nervous though.  I work in the legal field and wondered have there been any class action lawsuits regarding campers and RVs and the difficulty in getting them fixed?  I would not hesitate to sue a manufacturer if I had to, especially if I bought a new RV. 

But what is a RV customer to do?  I would love to be able to buy an Allegro or something along that line. I have heard they are the best but they are way out of my price range. We want a motorhome in the next couple of years to start using on weekends with the eventual plan to retire and live in it full time.  But neither of us is mechanical and we don?t have unlimited funds. I can fix some things but not much. What about extended warranties on used motorhomes?  Are they worth it?

Click to expand...

At the end of Part 2 of the series, there's a link to a podcast from a Lemon Law Attorney that you'll find of interest. Here's a link: https://soundcloud.com/stevelehto/dont-buy-an-rv-ep-45

On thing that caught my attention is that buried in the paperwork is some sort of clause stating the buyer has surrendered all rights. Since you're in the legal field, I'm sure we'll all be interested in your opinion and advice.

tcg said:

For close to 30 years I've had a business that cleans boats for dealers. Everything from 11' tenders to 3 million dollar 70' yachts.

What's being discussed in this topic is not specific to the RV industry.

You would think a 2 million dollar yacht would show up from the factory ready to go, nope, takes a week to get it ready if nothing is wrong. I've made an excellent living cleaning up from the factory and the techs that prep these things.

You would also think if a tech were working on a million+ dollar yacht they might remove their shoes or put down some protective floor covering, nope, not their yacht. More money for me.

Broken toilets? Blown motors? Power anything? It all comes in not working, some are worse than others.

I'm usually the last guy on a delivery before the customer shows up. I can't count how many times I've told the service department about things they missed from scratches to leaking anything. We've cleaned close to 20,000 boats in almost 30 years and it's progressively gotten worse.

Not sure what the problem is, probablly cheap labor at the factories and cheap parts in an attempt to make more money for the share holders.

But rest assured it's not just one industry.

Click to expand...

Before I got the RV bug I had the sailboat bug. After reading lots about it I figured out it is not what I need to do because all the boat owners kept saying on any given day only 80% of the things on the boat will be working. You are constantly repairing it.  So I started looking at motorhomes.  Now I am finding it is not much different. 

PBG said:

At the end of Part 2 of the series, there's a link to a podcast from a Lemon Law Attorney that you'll find of interest. Here's a link: https://soundcloud.com/stevelehto/dont-buy-an-rv-ep-45

On thing that caught my attention is that buried in the paperwork is some sort of clause stating the buyer has surrendered all rights. Since you're in the legal field, I'm sure we'll all be interested in your opinion and advice.

Click to expand...

Thanks. I saw that link I am going to look at it when I get home.  And yes I would definitely be looking for those "clauses".  But I am thinking I may just take my sweet time and find a good deal on a used one from a private seller.

PBG said:

Regarding Foretravel, I visited the factory a few months ago and while I like its coaches, I wasn't too impressed with the factory. Just an opinion. Also, unless you live in the Great State of Texas, obtaining warranty service can be a challenge. For the Realm, there's only one dealer and it's my understanding they don't do warranty house service. But, it's a gorgeous coach.

Click to expand...

if you hate Foretravel ....
you should see the Newell factory....a bunch of old quonset huts with million dollar motorhomes in them....
but both Newell and Fortravel are some of the best motorhomes made.....

I think you are expecting to see a state of-the-art computer controlled environment robotic assembly line,  you may not realize all RV's are actually just hand-made custom house-vehicles.

TonyDtorch said:

if you hate Foretravel ....
you should see the Newell factory....a bunch of old quonset huts with million dollar motorhomes in them....
but both Newell and Fortravel are some of the best motorhomes made.....

I think you are expecting to see a state of-the-art computer controlled environment robotic assembly line,  you may not realize all RV's are actually just hand-made custom house-vehicles.

Click to expand...

Who said anything about hating Foretravel? Please, there's no need to mince my words as I stated I like its coaches, but was not impressed with its factory. In fact, the Realm continues to have my attention, but the lack of service locations gives me pause. It's only sold by one dealer and while the Spartan service can be obtained in numerous locations, when warranty work is needed, where do you go? Back to Texas. If I lived near the factory, Foretravel would be high on my list.

And yes, I visited the Newell factory just a few months ago and there's a huge difference between it and the Foretravel factory as it's modern, bright, clean, organized and the workers seem to be as good as they get in this industry. The workers I encountered seemed to be young, bright and energetic and took a lot of pride in building quite possibly the finest coach on the road. Is it ideal for a first timer? Probably not...it's a lot of money to spend on a first coach. The owner's I've encountered seem to be very happy with their coach and Newell's service policies. 

And no, I wasn't expecting to see a "computer controlled environment robotic assembly line" in any of the factories, but what I have learned by visiting various factories is that every one of them does it differently. Some are completely by hand and some use a level of automation.

I encourage anyone spending their hard earned money to take the time to see how various manufacturers build coaches as it's been a great learning experience.

I hope that sets the record straight.

boats and motorhomes are similar in the building process and the way they are used.

both are mostly handmade, typically once they leave the factory and the dealership it's up to the captain to take care everything after that wherever he is in the world.

buy the best boat you can.

PBG said:

Who said anything about hating Foretravel? Please, there's no need to mince my words as I stated I like its coaches, but was not impressed with its factory. In fact, the Realm continues to have my attention, but the lack of service locations gives me pause. It's only sold by one dealer and while the Spartan service can be obtained in numerous locations, when warranty work is needed, where do you go? Back to Texas. If I lived near the factory, Foretravel would be high on my list.

And yes, I visited the Newell factory just a few months ago and there's a huge difference between it and the Foretravel factory as it's modern, bright, clean, organized and the workers seem to be as good as they get in this industry. The workers I encountered seemed to be young, bright and energetic and took a lot of pride in building quite possibly the finest coach on the road. Is it ideal for a first timer? Probably not...it's a lot of money to spend on a first coach. The owner's I've encountered seem to be very happy with their coach and Newell's service policies. 

And no, I wasn't expecting to see a "computer controlled environment robotic assembly line" in any of the factories, but what I have learned by visiting various factories is that every one of them does it differently. Some are completely by hand and some use a level of automation.

I encourage anyone spending their hard earned money to take the time to see how various manufacturers build coaches as it's been a great learning experience.

I hope that sets the record straight.

Click to expand...

Couple of thoughts on your concerns about getting a Foretravel Realm serviced outside of Texas. 

1.  As you noted, anyone who can work on a Spartan chassis and Cummins engine can take care of those things.  Cummins Coach Care shops are fairly well spread out around the US.

2.  I think many folks who have the $$$ to pluck down for a Realm probably have the time and resources to get to Texas if they need to for a factory visit.

3.  I suspect Foretravel has a list of independent shops in various parts of the US that they recommend for repairs.  I would certainly ask them about that. 

On another point, factory visits for repairs; if you are still working and want to maximize your vacation time, it is certainly understandable that you don't want to spend time traveling to and sitting at a factory to get stuff fixed on a new coach.  This is especially true if they are fixing things that are related to lack of QA/QC in the build and/or delivery process. 

I think the reason necessary factory visits are so well tolerated by many owners of class A DP's is the fact that so many of those owners are retired and have the time to do it.  In fact, I believe some folks actually enjoy going 'back to the mother ship' so to speak.  They meet other owners, etc and it seems to be something they look forward to.  I met folks at the Winnebago factory in Iowa one year that come every year just to have routine service done. 

I was just having a conversation with my local dealer about Grand Design products. He said if all the other manufacturers would go through their trailers the way Grand Design does before they got to him, he would have to fire a guy due to lack of work. I suggested to him instead of firing one guy, to build a bigger shop and hire two more to start doing more repair work in a timely manner. That got me a raised eyebrow.