Lap Belts and Car Seats Question (Rental)

[acrossthepond]

Hello everyone,

We’ve joined the forums as we are beginning to plan an RV trip across the U.S. next year for a few months.  We’ll be travelling from the U.K. with our 13 year old daughters and we’re hoping for some advice about rear seat safety.

We’ll be renting a C-class motorhome which we understand will have rear lap belts.  We know these are not really safe so we’ve done some research and found two possible solutions.

The first is to get the girls these travel safety vests:

http://ezon.impactfulmedia.com/e-z-on-adjustable-103z-vest-for-the-family-vehicle/

They don’t look hard to install and they would require anchors for the connecting straps to work safely, but we don’t know where the anchors will be relative to the motorhome seats.  Does anyone have experience using these safety vests?  They look like a good solution, but any feedback or advice would be appreciated.

The second option is to get two of these seats:

http://www.adaptivemall.com/colcarseat1.html

These would obviously get around the lap belt only problem, they would probably be more convenient for the girls to hop in and out of, and they use a different anchoring system so wouldn’t need specific bolts near the motorhome seats.

We’ve found lots of great information on seatbelts on the forums and the various state laws and other rules which is really helpful.  However, as we’ll be renting we don’t have the option (or know-how!) to install normal lap/shoulder seatbelts so these are – at the moment – the best solutions we can find.

If anyone has any thoughts, that would be great.  Thank you very much!

[John From Detroit]

In the history of seat belts lap belts were used for many years before the shoulder belts were added.

The danger with lap only is that your body can come forward striking whatever is in FRONT of your seat.. For REAR seat passengers this is often the well padded back of the front seat, But the seats may be far enough back that this is not a problem.... Another consideration is that you tend to be kind of careful when driving a house.. So the odds of needing the belts to do their thing is reduced.

Of course that said... Nothing beats a 5 point safety harness (Pilot or Racer's harness).

[HappyWanderer]

I'm not so sure that lap belts aren't safe for rear passengers. You'll be in a vehicle that more closely resembles a bus than a passenger car.

[acrossthepond]

Thanks for the replies, we appreciate it.

We understand the design and size of a motorhome is important (we found some very helpful messages on the forum about this), but we’re not confident the lap belts alone are safe. We understand – just as you say – that serious injuries can occur from striking whatever is front, however we also understand not striking something is just as dangerous.  As we won’t have the option of using regular lap/shoulder belts, the harnesses or the seats we found seem like the best options at the moment.

John From Detroit – are you recommending the harnesses?  Please forgive us if we’re misunderstanding!

Any thoughts on any possible issues with using either of these would be great – we’ve saved for a few years to make this possible and we’re now getting excited but we know we’re beginners!

[Tom]

Do you know which make/model of class C you'll be renting? I looked at several models offered by one of the large rental companies, and saw quite different seating arrangements, some of which would not appear to accommodate the harness or the seat.

[Gary RV_Wizard]

Agree with Tom. In fact I don't see any Class C layouts that provide what I could call safe seating for more than two people, so the type of restraint may be academic. Especially if they are side-facing seats or a booth dinette type.  I'm not trying to dissuade you from making it as safe as practical, but there may not be a lot that can be  achieved.

The vests would work if there are actual seats with a high back, but that isn't common in a Class C. Does the one you plan to rent have them?

The second option you listed seems inadequate for a 13 year old unless they are fairly small for their age. It says it can accommodate up to 102 lbs and 60" height, but that seems like a far stretch to me. 102 & 60 are just shy of the average for a 13 YO US girl.

[SeilerBird]

I think you are worrying too much. RVs rarely get into an accident that would harm passengers since they tend to drive slower and more carefully than people in cars. There are millions of school buses and city buses in America and I have never seen one with seat belts.

[acrossthepond]

Thanks everyone,

We don’t exactly know what model yet, but the most likely is the “standard” ford circa. 25’ model.  We contacted CruiseAmerica and ApolloRV and they confirmed they have lap belts but only one anchor in each vehicle.  We’re now looking at some smaller firms (Britz, SoCal) to see if they offer a class-C vehicle with at least two anchors.  One company we spoke to said they had some with two anchors but couldn’t guarantee we would get one of those models (which is frustrating).

Thank you so much for the reassurances as well, but we definitely don’t want to travel without the girls buckled up. They’re smaller than average (they’re twins) so they’ll fit in the seats we found both by height and weight (they are about 93 and 96lbs, and 56” and 57”) and the harnesses come in all sizes.  Thank you very much for the point about a high back seat – this actually makes us think that if we can’t find a vehicle with the right seats, then the Columbia seats are essentially the only option as they would have head support (which is also better for sleeping too).  We’re definitely looking to find a vehicle with two forward-facing seats at the back but if we can’t, we still think using either the harnesses or the seats on side or backward facing seats would be a huge improvement for if something did happen, they would definitely be safer than if they were unbuckled.

Also, thanks for the point about the Dinette seats – the harnesses would probably be better in this case because they wouldn’t take up any extra space and the girls could still enjoy having the table.  With the seats, just they’re because bigger, we’d probably have to remove the table to make room – no great problem, but I’m sure the girls would appreciate the novelty of the table if it’s possible. 

We could as a very last resort use the one tether anchor for either the harness or seat, and have them alternate between that and the front passenger seat with the regular lap/shoulder belts (one of us would then use the other lapbelt in the back).  We do however want to avoid this if at all possible because it would be far from ideal for the girls, we'd like to avoid the arguments of who went up front and when, and navigating would be hard from the back.

Does anyone know of any vehicles which do come with two anchors – perhaps we could search for companies who rent those specific models (the one company we spoke to said they didn’t have the model names)?

Any more ideas are hugely appreciated - thanks so much again for the suggestions and help.

[Tom]

Please let us know if you stumble across a model that will do what you want, and also confirm which model you end up with. This info could help us help others in the future.

FWIW I've always considered dinette seats to offer little restraint; At best, they'd accommodate lap belts, and the seats themselves typically aren't constructed to survive a crash. Also, as Gary mentioned, side-facing seats or sofas, even if fitted with belts, offer little or no restraint in the direction of travel/impact.

Just a thought ... have you looked at Hymer hotorhomes in the UK? They're probably closest to our class C, and it would be interesting to see what child/rear passenger restraint they offer, and how they achieve it.

[acrossthepond]

Of course – we’ll be talking to some more rental companies this week and we’ll be sure to post what we find out.

We’re leaning more towards the Columbia seats largely because of the issue people have pointed out about the dinette seating.  If we do have to have the girls sit sideways or backwards, then the shell would provide far better protection than the harnesses would (and they look a lot simpler to use), should something happen.  We understand about front-on collisions but in the event of a rollover, sideways installed car seats would be better than nothing.

Interestingly, one company recommended removing the seat cushion from the dinette and installing the car seat directly onto the seat frame using the lap belt and tether.  This seems like a logical suggestion which would be safer than having the car seat on top of the dinette seat.

We’ll talk to Hymer motorhomes too – thanks for the suggestion!

Many thanks again for the advice.

[Tom]

Good, I have confidence that you will research this issue.

Just curious, which part of the UK are you in? I was born and lived my first 32 years west of the Severn Bridge (not-so-sunny South Wales).

[jackiemac]

Hi, El Monte RV also rent trailers and fifth wheels. Not sure if they rent the vehicle  to tow them with but you would all be in a "car/truck" environment with proper seat belts. Just a thought as an alternative. This may also give you more flexibility for places the motorhome can't go.

[Tom]

Interesting suggestion by Jackie. I'm not sure we've had much, if any, prior discussion here about renting a 5th wheel and truck. It doesn't appear that El Monte rents trucks, and I haven't checked other RV rental companies to see if they rent the combination. If not, there are numerous places that rent trucks, but you'd need to be sure they're set up for, and capable, of towing a fifthwheel. Another possibility might be a small travel trailer (aka caravan), but again there'd be the issue of the truck to tow it.

[Ernie n Tara]

Some of the class A's have real belts and anchors in the dinette. Our Georgie Boy had both fore and aft facing seats with good belts (I checked the anchors) the might satiisfy your desires. That said, there are thousands of school busses in the US and not one has seat restraints of any kind. Given our litigious socity, that says a lot!

Ernie

[Tom]

Some of the class A's have real belts and anchors in the dinette

Thanks Ernie, I hadn't heard/read that. The OP is renting a class C.

[acrossthepond]

We’ve had some replies today from various companies and we’ve got some good information which we’ll post shortly – we’re just waiting to hear back from some people so we can put all the information together.

Thanks for the suggestion of a fifth wheel trailer.  It’s a great idea but the plan, for as long as we can remember, was always to have the RV/motorhome.  We appreciate the suggestion and it would certainly solve the issue, but we wouldn’t feel as though we’d be doing the trip in the way we want to.  If we really can’t find a solution then we’ll consider it, so thanks!  And the big class-A RVs look great, but we would not be confident driving something that big – for us the class-C feels like a brave choice as it is!  Thanks for the information though.

We’ll post everything soon, once we’ve heard back from the other rental companies/manufacturers.

And we’re from Hampshire by the way – perhaps only marginally more sunny than south Wales!

Thanks again.

[Tom]

Looking forward to reading the info you've been able to gather. Understand not wanting to change the plan and stick with a class C.

And we’re from Hampshire by the way – perhaps only marginally more sunny than south Wales

I always joked that it rains 366 days a year in Wales, then I met my new neighbor, a Dutchman; He said it rains 9 days a week in Holland, and I quit complaining (or bragging) 

[blw2]

My class C is probably somewhat typical.
There really is no great place in terms of absolute safety and car seat placement in the motorhome.

The two seats up front of course, but these are not child seat friendly

There are 3 sets of lap belts in the sofa...which is side facing.
Side facing being not all that great for front or rear collisions, and basically a no-no for child car seats

There are two lap belts in the dinette on the forward facing side.  no lap belts in the rearward facing side.

My oldest two are out of the car seat required age range for Florida, but my youngest is still in a booster.  She normally rides in the booster seat placed in the dinette.  But without the shoulder harness, the table is a big potential danger for head strike.  Often, but not always, what I'll do is set up the dinette as a bed, and let her ride in the booster that way.  With some larger car seats like the one you linked to, this would likely be the only way to get it to fit.
Sometimes she's on the sofa.

If you're wanting to be overly cautious, I think I would lean more towards the harness that you linked to
but that is if the kids are not required to be in a booster by law.

http://safeseats4kids.aaa.com/state-laws/

http://drivinglaws.aaa.com/tag/child-passenger-safety/

[acrossthepond]

Thanks very much everyone; we really appreciate the help.

Blw2 – thanks for the reply – the girls are not required to be in booster seats by any of the state laws we’ve checked, but we really don’t have confidence in just lap belts.  Is there any specific reason you think the harnesses would be better?  We were beginning to lean towards the Columbia seats (see reasons below), but we’re total beginners at this so are open to any input - thanks!

This is long (sorry!)…

So we’ve heard back from the rental companies and we’ve also spoken to some manufacturers. We only asked about the class-C RVs but we hope the following is still useful for people.

We’ve also found some useful information about general crash safety in RVs too, which we’ve put at the end – many of you no doubt know about this, but we hope it’s also useful.

CruiseAmerica

They have no class-C RVs with lap/shoulder belts in the rear seating, but all have lap belts (the number depends on the interior layout).  Some of these vehicles have one tether anchor, but some have two.

The RVs with two anchors are Ford “Majestic” models made by Thor (which we think, but don’t know, are variants of the Four Winds model).  The two tether anchors are side by side for the dinette seats which are the forward-facing part of the bench.  You can request a vehicle with two anchor points, but they can’t guarantee you one of those vehicles.

Apollo RV

No class-C RVs with lap/shoulder belts in the rear but all have lap belts (as above, the number depends on the interior layout).  All the class-C rentals are Minnie Winnie models made by Winnebago (we’ve looked at the Sunrise Escape and the Eclipse Camper).  Both of these models have two tether anchors which are for the forward-facing seats in the dinette.  While you can request either of these vehicles, they did say that “9 out of 10 times you’ll get the US Wanderer” instead, which only has lap belts in the rear.

Best Time RV

No class-C RVs with lap/shoulder belts in the rear but all have lap belts (as above, the number depends on the interior layout).  Their RVs are a mixture of the Minnie Winnie models by Winnebago, and the Freelander models made by Coachmen.  All their RVs have one tether anchor which is again for the forward-facing seat at the dinette.

El Monte RV

The situation is exactly the same as Best Time RV, but they could not confirm at the time which manufacturers made their vehicles.

RoadBear/Britz

No class-C RVs with lap/shoulder belts in the rear but all have lap belts (as above, the number depends on the interior layout).  All the class-C rentals are Four Winds models made by Thor which have one tether anchor for a forward-facing seat in the dinette.

The manufacturers we spoke with were Winnebago, Thor, and Coachmen.  All three offer at least one child seat tether anchor for the forward-facing dinette seats.  One is standard for Winnebago and Coachmen, however neither offer the option of two anchors.  Thor however offer one or two anchors both located behind the forward-facing seats in the dinette as options.

While they were all helpful, none of them could confirm what the maximum weight rating is for the tether anchors they fit.  We also asked how wide the forward-facing seats of the dinette are because we wanted to make sure if we do get the car seats, that they would actually fit side by side (they’re obviously bigger than normal kids car seats).  Depending on the manufacturer each dinette is 42-44” wide and therefore two of the seats will just fit side-by-side.

Clearly our options are Apollo RV and Cruise America, however we’re still concerned that we’ll only get a vehicle with one anchor.  However that issue might be solved, we did also find out that the rear seating in an RV isn’t really altogether that safe to start with.  As we understand it – and if we’re wrong please say so! – the dinette seating is made of wood which reduces the advantages of seatbelts (all the manufacturers we spoke to anchor the seatbelts to the metal chassis/frame).  We came across some crash testing by a UK company who made this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iKwg2672UM

Apparently the company – Bailey – are now going to fit upside-down steel U bars and horizontal beams under the rear seats to stop the seats collapsing.

These links may also be useful:

http://thecarseatlady.com/rvtravel/

http://www.procarseatsafety.com/recreation-vehicles-rv.html

We can’t say these don’t scare us silly, but we also understand the chance of crash is small, that a class-C is bigger than the vehicle tested, and we wouldn’t be using the rear-facing seats.

That said, having seen this we’re pretty sure we’ve got two realistic options:

1) Rent a class-C from Apollo or CruiseAmerica doing all we can to ensure we get a vehicle with two tether anchors.  Buy two of the Columbia car seats and install them side by side forward-facing in the Dinette.  This would mean the girls would have full harnesses, not lap belts, and they would be more protected if an accident did happen because the shell of the car seats would protect them more if the wooden seat collapsed (the harnesses would still work, but we don’t think they would provide the same degree of protection because they obviously lack the protective shell).  The issue is that we can’t guarantee we would get a vehicle with two anchors which would mean they would have to alternate between the back and the front passenger seat (which we want to avoid if at all possible).

2) Rent a fifth-wheel like Jackiemac suggested.  This would mean they would have regular seatbelts as normal and we’d be much more confident but it also means we would obviously give up the original idea we were planning.  Though we’d never put our wishes above their safety, driving around America in an RV is their dream holiday too so if we did give up the RV, we kind of feel like we’re cheating them out of the holiday they want.

Either way, though we’re still unsure on finding a way to enjoy everything and still travel safely, we’re a little bit closer at least.

We’re sorry if this message is too long, but we hope the information is helpful to everyone.  If anyone does have any thoughts in light of the above we’re all ears.

Thanks again for all the advice.

[Gary RV_Wizard]

Great research - thank you!

I personally don't think there is a great risk for rear passengers in an RV as long as they are seated and belted, but "low risk" is not "no risk". And there can be no question that a shoulder belt is superior in avoiding head injury.
 
Maybe I'm fatalistic, but I think survival chances are abut zero in any RV head-on collision at a significant speed, but excellent otherwise. The bigger, heavier vehicle always has the advantage in a collision. I've been in a collision in our motorhome and it's no contest when it  weighs 4x-6x as much as the vehicle it hits. The greater mass means the deceleration is much less, mitigating the effects of the impact for those inside the RV.

[Tom]

Thanks for compiling your findings; It will be a data point for others in the future.

I'm having a tough time understanding that the seats you're thinking of purchasing will offer the additional protection/restraint you're looking for, given that they'll only have one anchor (either shared, or one each). Also, the real possibility (that you've confirmed) that a dinette seat wouldn't survive an impact.

Looks like you have a tough decision, and it's good to see you doing the research. Your concern for the safety of your family is to be commended. I recall that, when I researched the issue of a Child Restraint Seat (aka car seat) for a grandchild in our class A, I possibly went overboard with ensuring it was well secured.

Thanks again for sharing.

[Carl L]

Looking forward to reading the info you've been able to gather. Understand not wanting to change the plan and stick with a class C.

I always joked that it rains 366 days a year in Wales, then I met my new neighbor, a Dutchman; He said it rains 9 days a week in Holland, and I quit complaining (or bragging) 

Rain.  I remember rain.   Its where water falls from the sky, isn't it?   We don't get that stuff here in Southern California.  Too bad, I hear it is a wonder at putting out brush fires.

[Tom]

Aye  Carl, Northern California could use some of  that stuff too.

[sunflowers]

This is a great thread for me. We are having the same issues deciding on car seats. Would be interesting to know which option the OP decided on.

We have a C25 from El Monte and they have advised that the only belts are lap belts on the 'dinette' seats. After lots of research I came to the conclusion that RV'ing is pretty safe based on the fact that you are, most of the time, going to be in the bigger vehicle. All that said, I still want my 7 & 3 year old strapped in securely and also be able to rest if they wish. My idea was to purchase two high back boosters from Walmart, high backs because my biggest concern was that the dinette seats do not have headrests and even in the smallest collision I would like to think their heads would be supported from flying backwards, and also to give them the option of sleeping/resting their heads if they want to.

So my questions/thoughts are:

1. Def going to get 2 highback boosters for comfort and added neck and head protection.
2. The boosters can be secured with just the lap belt OR a safety harness that is built into the seat and the lap belt - given that the seats are not going to be tethered/anchored to the back of the dinette seats then in the case of a collision they will still get flung forward SO which seems safer?? The high back booster with the lap belt or the high back booster with the lap belt and built in harness?
3. I was intrigued about the comment about having the table set up as a bed to prevent heads hitting the table - is that safe?? I am thinking have the table set up but with blankets and pillows on top of it?
4. Basically I am lost having never stepped foot in this vehicle! Any insight on what I have said would be much appreciated!
5. I know us Brits are over cautious and love to follow the rules......

Thank you!

[John From Detroit]

Modern car seats are designed to use a center mounted support.. Most cars made this century (All I think by law) have a device to hold this "Latch" and secure the top of the seat.

What they don't tell you less you insist:

Older cars did not have this top mounted latch... So you had to add it.. Well they still make the add-on latch..


That said.. On most RV's the couch is the "Back Seat" and ... It's not secured to the floor, it just sits there like the one in your Sticks and bricks.. With a child seat the seat belt is floor anchored and in turn the SEAT anchors the couch, But alas, that's how it is done.

Considering the ages of your children, I suspect they ride in forward facing child seats.

I'm not sure how much added protection is given by that top latch, but you could easily add it.   Just write your car seat (the one you have now) Manufacturer for information.

[sunflowers]

Thank you John. I am totally confused now  My fault, not yours!

So, you are saying that there is no point in having a car seat because they are just sat on top of the couch which is not anchored down in any way shape or form?

I will be purchasing Car Seats from Walmart to use in the US, and they will be forward facing.

I just don't know if I should get a harnessed one https://www.walmart.com/ip/Cosco-High-Back-Booster-Car-Seat-Windmill/22151874

or a lap belt only one? https://www.walmart.com/ip/Evenflo-Big-Kid-Sport-High-Back-Booster-Seat-Goody-Two-Tones/52502361

Just noticed that the harnessed one is latch supported to......so for the price that seems the best option?

[jackiemac]

https://www.elmonterv.com/rent/rv-details/cabover-style-c25-rv/

Shows the seats in dinette with lap style belts. Looks like the cushions will come off but the dinette itself looks fixed.  May be others on forum with similar style of rv who can  advise.

Good luck.

[sunflowers]

https://www.elmonterv.com/rent/rv-details/cabover-style-c25-rv/

Shows the seats in dinette with lap style belts. Looks like the cushions will come off but the dinette itself looks fixed.  May be others on forum with similar style of rv who can  advise.

Good luck.

Thank you for taking the time to do that! The whole area becomes a bed so I am presuming the table bit can be taken away too? Is that what you meant?

[jackiemac]

Yes, but wonder if seat backs fixed?

[Alfa38User]

If the whole thing becomes a bed, the it is most likely the cushioned seat backs are used as part of the bed's mattress. i.e. They are not fixed in place. Whether or not you could attach something to the 'wall' behind the cushions is another question. Most interior walls are not very solid, they are usually hollow and made using very thin plywood.

The table has to be removable if that spot makes up into a bed.