Down to the wire on towing accessories - getting educated -- or duped.

This thread serves no purpose. Just reminiscing on the day.  :

I spent the last couple of days finalizing my purchasing decision for accessories, towing my toad. Talked to a lot of folks at several RV and one Workhorse Chassis service locations. A bit of a learning/confusing experience.  ???

Talked to 4 sales and 8 service personnel, in those locations. Was doing some final price/brand comparisons and some fairly aggressive tentative bargaining. I think that was clear to the opposition. Looks like the same dealer as usual is going to win this one. (I didn?t go there. He was the one to beat, and they didn?t get the job done. The chassis service tech recommended them! They sell the systems, but sub the installation out to the RV dealer that is leading in my book, at this time.)

Came up with some fascinating claims/opinions/wisdom/rubbish. Can?t tell one from the other! (Note: the following notwithstanding, there will be some tow-bar and a braking system on board.)

Vehicles involved, one Damon Challenger, 2005, Workhorse Chassis. One Suzuki XL-7, 2003, toad.

Challenger towing capacity, 5,700. Hitch maximum, 5,000 lbs. Suzuki actual weight, loaded for towing, full gas tank, all gear, (no driver or passengers) - 3,740 lbs. (Weighed in late December.)

Challenger:

GVWR - 20,700. Actual weight, loaded for travel, water, gas, propane tanks, full - grey and black tanks empty, all gear and personnel, doggel, food, clothing, toys and emergency survival rations on board, 19,260 lbs. (Weighed just before winterizing, last fall.) (We actually travel with the water tank half full.)

GCWR - 26,000. Total of coach and toad as weighed, 23,000. Got a ton and a half to spare. (Hitch and brake systems will add some to that.)

Fascinating opinions and rubbish, (not differentiated,) here.  :

All sold a variety of systems. Roadmaster was most recommended, and by far, for both towing and braking system. Blue Ox came in second. (First at one dealer.) Three other brands suggested, with few votes. Chassis service tech was very strongly in favor of Roadmaster. Wouldn?t consider any other!

All, with no exceptions, said the only reason I need an auxiliary braking system was for legal purposes. ?The coach brakes, alone, will stop both vehicles with no trouble.? Two recommended ?no box? systems for ease of use. Others recommended the box to save money. One recommended no brake system for the toad. ?No point in it. You don't need it! Spend your money on something else! No cop is ever going to stop you to see if you have a braking system!?

All of those who favored Roadmaster, favored the ?non-binding? feature on several tow bar models. ?You probably won?t ever need it, but if you do you will sure be glad you have it.? One, ?If you are in a situation where you have to drop the car, to get out of a jam, and your bar is bound, you?ll be really glad you have it!?

No Brakes Necessary Group: The chassis tech explained that the braking system on the Challenger is ?over engineered? for my unit. As I understand it, I am in the lower middle of chassis sizes that use this specific system. Many heavier commercial units use the same system, parts interchangeable, to over 30,000 lbs GCWR. To listen to him, the system is pretty common in Workhorse chassis units, without modification for heavier vehicles, and still quite reliable.

Re towing, I asked him what the ?weak link? was, in my case. Engine? Tranny? Hitch? Brakes? He said, ?towing ?that little Suzuki? there isn?t one. You?re not going to know it?s there!? Well, the proof is in the pudding, and in a few weeks we will ?summerize? and hit the road. Let?s see if I know it?s there.

Ray D.  ;D

Ray D said:

.......Vehicles involved, one Damon Challenger, 2005, Workhorse Chassis. One Suzuki XL-7, 2003, toad.

Challenger towing capacity, 5,700. Hitch maximum, 5,000 lbs. Suzuki actual weight, loaded for towing, full gas tank, all gear, (no driver or passengers) - 3,740 lbs. (Weighed in late December.)

Challenger:

GVWR - 20,700. Actual weight, loaded for travel, water, gas, propane tanks, full - grey and black tanks empty, all gear and personnel, doggel, food, clothing, toys and emergency survival rations on board, 19,260 lbs. (Weighed just before winterizing, last fall.) (We actually travel with the water tank half full.)

GCWR - 26,000. Total of coach and toad as weighed, 23,000. Got a ton and a half to spare. (Hitch and brake systems will add some to that.)

Fascinating opinions and rubbish, (not differentiated,) here.  :

All sold a variety of systems. Roadmaster was most recommended, and by far, for both towing and braking system. Blue Ox came in second. (First at one dealer.) Three other brands suggested, with few votes. Chassis service tech was very strongly in favor of Roadmaster. Wouldn't consider any other!

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Roadmaster/Blue Ox.....You're talking Chevy/Ford here Ray. Either one will do an excellent job.  I've used a OLD Blue Ox for over six years and have never had an occasion where it wouldn't unhook. IMO the ?non-binding? feature is a marketing feature.

All, with no exceptions, said the only reason I need an auxiliary braking system was for legal purposes. ?The coach brakes, alone, will stop both vehicles with no trouble.? Two recommended ?no box? systems for ease of use. Others recommended the box to save money. One recommended no brake system for the toad. ?No point in it. You don't need it! Spend your money on something else! No cop is ever going to stop you to see if you have a braking system!?

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Your is GVWR - 20,700 your scaled weight is 19,260. That leaves you 1,440 before your MH brakes are over gross. Your Suzuki weighs 3,740. Lets see 1,440 minus 3,740 = 2,300 lbs short. The chassis tech can say anything he wants to but I'll bet you a steak dinner that if your ever in an accident he WON'T be in court with you saying you don't need brakes on your Suzuki! But you can bet the other party's lawyer will be asking you why you didn't have a auxiliary braking system. The chassis tech said the "Challenger is over engineered".  Damon didn't say it was over engineered. I'll believe the MH manufacturer. Besides you need the auxiliary braking for the breakaway feature if for no other reason.

Re towing, I asked him what the ?weak link? was, in my case. Engine? Tranny? Hitch? Brakes?

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I think the weak link is the service tech and the others that said you didn't need auxiliary braking.

Of course all of this is just IMHO.  ;D

As I said above, there will be a braking system. I thought it was an intriguing day. Only one recommended no braking system.  ;D

I am still a bit torn between the boxes and the "no box" systems. Not at all sure the trouble moving the box is worth the difference in price for the no box systems.

Still too cold, here, to summerize. Getting close. Gotta have the thing ready when this area heats up, a little.

Ray D  ;D

Ray D said:

I am still a bit torn between the boxes and the "no box" systems.

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Both will work just fine Ray, assuming there's an option for your car. I just happened to make a bad choice when I bought a box (poor design which is no longer on the market). I switched to a non-box and haven't looked back. Had my first box been a different brand, I'd probably still be using it. OTOH I do like the no-hassle hookup and disconnect of a non-box.

I am still a bit torn between the boxes and the "no box" systems. Not at all sure the trouble moving the box is worth the difference in price for the no box systems.

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It isn't. We are talking maybe 90 seconds to set the box in the front seat and plug it in, which includes fetching the box from wherever it is kept when not in use.  In fact, storing the box somewhere when not using it may be the largest nuisance factor in this type of system.  If you are otherwise satisfied that a box system is right for you, go for it and stop worrying about the box/nobox issue, cause there isn't one.  I'm somewhat surprised you are seeing a significant price difference, though. A full box system runs about $1100 and I would think a no-box, even with install labor, would not be much more.

Biggest holdup getting my system together has been "no hurry." Not needed for sitting in the back yard, winterized. So, have used the time to get better informed on what I need, find out which retailer is going to make a price move, and vicariously following the escapades of the full timers, chasing winter storms, down south, on this forum. (Especially - Tom!) (Well, and Betty and - - - -. Have you noticed that most here handle minor adversity relatively calmly?)

Leading contender for tow bar system is the Roadmaster Sterling, All Terrain. It's been in first place since last fall. I have put some considerable effort into knocking it out of first, to no avail. I'll know for sure, when I write the check.

EvenBrake and BrakeMaster lead in that issue. For whatever reason, BrakeMaster is $400 + more. (Price diff is installation, I'm sure.) Last two days of jawboning with locals have not convinced me to spend the extra bucks, but I lean slightly that way. ON the other hand, we have lots of storage space available in the coach. Several bays are empty - nothing in them. Storing the box in there - no problem.

Definitely appreciate the advice on this forum. Much happier with my decisions, since joining. Wish I'd found this a couple of years sooner. Would have saved some considerable grief! (And a stack of money!)

Ray D  ;D

Ray D said:

... following the escapades of the full timers, chasing winter storms, down south, on this forum. (Especially - Tom!)

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LOL Ray. BTW we're not fulltimers (far from it). Since we got home early last week, it's been low 70's and mostly clear skies. Will be 80+ this weekend. So we've concluded the bad weather we saw on our trip definitely wasn't anything to do with us  ;D

Tom: I should have said, "Snowbirds," although I don't think you qualify for that, either! (Especially since you did part of it backwards, heading into snow country in the thick of it.)  :

Really enjoyed all of the rukus! I ought to pay part of everyone's expenses, for the entertainment! I got to take all the trips, while sitting here, roasting chestnuts by the open fire.  ;D

So, thanks, everyone.

Ray D  ;D

LOL Ray, we're definitely not snowbirds. We came home to warm weather which will get warmer.

For whatever reason, BrakeMaster is $400 + more. (Price diff is installation, I'm sure.)

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With your coach (which has hydraulic brakes), the Brakemaster requires an optional air compressor to be added to the coach, increasing hardware and labor costs. And you still have a piston to place in the toad brake pedal each time. Not a big deal, but not a zero effort solution either. I see no advantage to you in choosing Brakemaster (and I own one - it works great with my air brake coach). If you want to compare Evenbrake to a "no box" solution, compare to and M&G or the US Gear Unified Tow Brake. Neither of those have anything to hook up at the driver's seat - you just plug in the connectors to the motorhome and go.

Oh heck, just get the Evenbrake (or the similar and ever popular Brake Buddy) and go RVing.

Regarding box/no-box brake systems.

With the box you have a box you have to wrangle out of the driver's seat every time you unhook, and store,  Then you have to wrangle it back in when you tow, and if you get it wrong it can mess up your brakes, or your seat, or both.

What's more you can forget it

And I do not care what the techs say at the dealer.. Every pound rolling which does not have brakes under it will increase your stopping distance... Oh sure the motor home can stop 5,000 lbs no problem but it will take more distance to stop without towed brakes and there are times when that can be a significant difference (Example, if the towed brakes stop you 10 feet faster, and you come to a panic stop five feet behind the vehicle in front of you WITH towed brakes... Think about what woudl happen without them)

People keep telling me "The bigger it is the longer it takes to stop"  Well,,, My physics teacher disputes that since the enegery in the box is e=mc^2 and (The bigger the box the  bigger the "M") and the brake power is mkf so the distance is (MC^2)/MKF or Speed squared/friction and gravity constants. (FK)  Should not matter if it's a  VW bug or a 80,000 semi, once those wheels stop turning the skid factors are identical.

But if you have wheels that do not have brakes on them you have M(1) and M(2) and that will make a difference in stopping distance, guarenteed.

Since I did not wish to forget the box, and since M&G won't fit my towed... I use the US Gear system,  Love it, works great and has a few side effects I found useful on at least one occasion (It keeps the battery charged on the towed, a major advantage over every other system I've seen)

With the box you have a box you have to wrangle out of the driver's seat every time you unhook, and store,  Then you have to wrangle it back in when you tow, and if you get it wrong it can mess up your brakes, or your seat, or both.

What's more you can forget it

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We have used a box (Brake Buddy) for over 100K miles and surely wouldn't consider hooking it up and taking it out wrangling.  Its not a time consuming task or hard to do.  We have used this system with four different toads and have really appreciated the ability to just begin using it on the new toad with NO major effort to uninstall and install hardware in the vehicle.  Like everything else its a matter of choices and we made ours four vehicles ago.  It has served us very well. 

Oh we have NEVER forgot to hook up our aux break system.

We probably like our Brake Buddy as much as you do your system and like you we wouldn't trade. ;D

Like Ron, we have the Brake Buddy--"box system". We've had it for 8 years and used it for about 90,000 miles and 5 different towed vehicles. Never found it to be a bother. Like the fact that it easily moves from one toad to another--no installation required. Hookup is maybe 45 seconds at the most.

Have used a BlueOx Aladin hitch for all towing. It's been rebuilt 3 times, twice at FMCA rallies and once when we stopped by the factory. All three rebuilds were done at no-charge as the result of a courtesy inspection.

Chet18013