New Journey battery question

Guys, bear with me.  Just got the new-to-us Journey DP.  Have had a Adventurer for a year, so not total newbees, but new to this coach.  Dumb question #1:  We picked up the coach and it had been sitting uncharged in sellers driveway.  House bank was not fully charged, but did have some charge.  We traveled to our home and used house lights, etc, during the trip.  Ended up discharging the house bank quite a bit.  Generator starts from house batteries.  So ended up with chassis batteries fully charged, but house batteries too discharged to start genset.  At "home" is a storage lot without electricity.  Is there supposed to be some way to charge house batteries while under way that is not working properly?  The "momentary" switch that combines chassis and house batteries did not let us start genset, so I am supposing there is a diode that lets house support chassis, but not the other way around.  Am I missing something?  Do I need to add an "echo charge" or "trik-L-charge" to let the engine alternator charge the house batteries also?

edit by staff - changed message icon to topic solved

Normally the engine alternator will charge the house batteries while underway but... this presumes that the relays (not a diode) etc are functioning as they should. One way to check is to measure the voltage at the house battery terminals, then start the engine and measure again. You should see a voltage greater than 13V while the engine is running. If you don't see that then you have spotted a problem that can be looked into. (Make sure you did not leave the "store" switch in the wrong position!!! In many cases it will prevent charging the batteries.) The momentary switch should have worked but again, it activates the same relay as the charge from the engine alternator does.

Depending on the year of the Winnibago Journey DP you may already have a trik-l-charge installed. I think model year 2007 2006 or so was when Wini started installing them as standard on DP models... BUT be aware that these are meant to charge the engine battery while parked and plugged in, not the other way around. They cannot be used without being plugged in (they depend on the coach converter to function) and thus ineffective at YOUR storage lot with no power connection.

The brand of relay used here has a bit of a history. Look under the winni section for an article on John Canfield's website... for his solution to this problem.

The house batteries should charge while driving. There is a solenoid relay that is supposed to connect the two when the alternator is active.  It's the same solenoid that makes the Momentary (Emergency Start) work, and it has no diode or other one-way features. Ergo, it sounds like your solenoid is defunct.

Your alternator will charge the house batteries, but only after the chassis batteries are charged first. Depending on the length of your drive home, it may not have been enough time to occur.  Also if the chassis batteries are weak or have a dying cell, it may never get to the point of a full charge. 

Using any power from the house bank without them being charged could drive the charge down to a point that would make them unable to start the gen.  You may just have batteries that had depleted to a point while sitting that is going to take an extended period of time to recover.  You may need to jump start the house bank to start the gen and then let it run for several hours. 

Also depending on the quality of the on board charger, a stand alone charger connected to the house bank may be better to bring the batteries back up.  And of course another issue to check is that the water in batteries is up to level, and that the cables are corrosion free.  If the battery posts are slightly corroded, the charger may not be able to charge the bank.

Sailorkane said:

..Do I need to add an "echo charge" or "trik-L-charge" to let the engine alternator charge the house batteries also?

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What Stu said.

Your house battery is charged by the alternator when the battery mode solenoid is operated - either by the ignition switch being in the on position or when the 'battery boost' (momentary on switch) switch is operated.

Winnebago did not start adding a Trik-L-Start to diesel pushers until the 2006 model year. You won't have one unless a previous owner added one (and yes, you need one.)

If this was my coach, I would start with brand new house and chassis batteries.

Thanks, guys.  Again you all come through with great information.  I guess I need to replace the MOM solenoid.  Have to find it first, but it seems that most of the solenoids are in a panel under the front cover.  My chassis batteries were fully charged, alternator producing about 14.5V,nothing getting to the house batteries.  Anyone have a good source for these solenoids? Would NAPA parts have one?

BTW, John, looked at your web site.  Awesome!  And your photo of tow dolly problems was the same thing that happened to me.  I tried loading car on tow dolly and foot slipped on accelerator and car went over the front of the tow dolly.  Major effort to get it off.  Luckily no damage, but turned me off tow dollies.  Spent time in July setting up for flat tow.  Huge improvement.

Just read the rest of John's posts on replacement of Trombetta solenoid, which apparently is problematic.  Very familiar with Blue Seas--used lots of their products on the boat.  Expensive, but high quality.  Looks like there is a newer model out that handles up to 500A, has manual combiner control, and allows either shore power OR alternator to charge both banks, making the trik-L-charge unnecessary.  Expensive, but maybe worth it??
https://www.bluesea.com/products/7622/ML-ACR_Automatic_Charging_Relay_with_Manual_Control_-_12V_DC_500A

Also, need to find the Trombetta solenoid in my Journey.  Unlikely to be under the front electrical fuse/solenoid panel as I first thought.  Anyone have any ideas?

The Blue Sea battery combiner is superior to a dumb solenoid/contactor - well worth the money to me.  Never had a failure of my replacement. If you look on my website under RV, there's a write-up of when I replaced the Trombetta with the Blue Sea product. You most likely have the house battery disconnect solenoid and the battery mode solenoid co-located. You could flip the house disconnect switch off and on several times and listen for a click/clunk.  Or pull up your 12V wiring installation diagram and hunt it down from there.

Page 3 of the Front End Wiring Installation for your coach shows the relay at location C-7.

SargeW said:

Your alternator will charge the house batteries, but only after the chassis batteries are charged first. Depending on the length of your drive home, it may not have been enough time to occur.  Also if the chassis batteries are weak or have a dying cell, it may never get to the point of a full charge. 

Using any power from the house bank without them being charged could drive the charge down to a point that would make them unable to start the gen.  You may just have batteries that had depleted to a point while sitting that is going to take an extended period of time to recover.  You may need to jump start the house bank to start the gen and then let it run for several hours. 

Also depending on the quality of the on board charger, a stand alone charger connected to the house bank may be better to bring the batteries back up.  And of course another issue to check is that the water in batteries is up to level, and that the cables are corrosion free.  If the battery posts are slightly corroded, the charger may not be able to charge the bank.

Click to expand...

On Winnebagos there is nothing to prevent the alternator charging both batteries simultaneously. Both batteries will share the alternator output. Some motor homes do have a circuit to delay charge going to house batteries, but older Winnebagos don't.

My 06' Meridian had a solenoid that would auto switch back and forth when driving. If the house batteries were low the switch would cycle back and forth, quite loudly. The cure to stop the clicking was to start the gen to charge the house bank.  That was also the first year that Winnebago started putting the Trik-L-Start on all of the pushers to charge the chassis batteries when parked. 

The Trik-L-Start has nothing to do with alternator charging, though. It provides chassis charging from shore power, exactly the opposite of the problem here. Sailorkane probably should be adding the Trik-L-Charge or other "battery combiner", but that's not his immediate problem.

I like the Magnum Smart Battery Combiner myself, but presently have a Xantrex Echo Charge unit, which itself is a replacement for failed Intellitec BCC. My Intellitec works well except that it blows out an IC if the charge current gets too high, which apparently means about 50A. That means it pops if I boondock over night and then start the engine in the morning!

Back in early 2010 we had to replace this solenoid on our unit.
We ordered & used a WR 586-903 15 volt coil, 200 amp continuous duty, silver contacts, 600 amp open inrush, contactor from onlinecomponents.com for 39.52 + 10.87 shipping. It was not the exact same replacement contactor, but has been working well since then. Has lasted much longer than the original. I wonder if some may use 12 volt coils, which may shorten the life since they are normally working near 14.4 volts.

Neal said:

... I wonder if some may use 12 volt coils, which may shorten the life since they are normally working near 14.4 volts.

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That was my postulation after I replaced the third failed Trombetta solenoid.  I did a post-mortem tear-down on the last failed one (pictures somewhere in a thread in this Winnie board) and there was no obvious 'smoking gun'.  The cloth wrapping around the coil was discolored which did indicate heat but the contacts looked okay.

Update:  A good news, bad news story.  I wimped out and bought replacement trombetta, rather than better blue seas combiner, albeit the silver contact version, for $47.  Replaced it.  Good news:  It does seem to join chassis and house banks together as it should.  Bad news:  it appears I have at least one bad cell in the house bank.  max voltage even with main engine alternator charging is 11 volts.  Perhaps exacerbated by driving home with coach with failed Trombetta and running house bank to zero.  Good news:  I just bought 3 news house batteries ready to install.  Bad news:  my DC drill, which I use with a rotating brush to clean battery wires and contacts, just died.  Went home and found my backup DC drill.  Ready to try again tomorrow. 
Reminds me of my boat days.  Our rally cry was "Its only two bolts, how long could it take?"

Sailorkane said:

... Ready to try again tomorrow.  Reminds me of my boat days.  Our rally cry was "Its only two bolts, how long could it take?"

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Been there.  It was always fun when I was working alone and had to remove or install a bolt/nut on the deck or somewhere out of reach of my two arms. As far as cordless drills, I've switched from Dewalt (used them for 20 years) to 18V Milwaukee - great drills and impact drivers.  Also got a right angle 12V Milwaukee driver/drill.

Glad you are making progress, it's good to start your ownership with new batteries anyway.

last update:  Managed to replace all 3 house batteries with type 29 rv/marine deep cycle.  And the trombetta.  Right now, just trying to get the deferred maintenance of the coach back up to snuff.  This is nearly the last thing.  The remote for inverter started working fine when battery voltage went to nominal.  My coach was bought new by a couple in 2003, who used it for several years and put 38K miles on it.  Then he died in 2013, wife sold it in 2015 to a local guy ("Bob") in Georgia.  He put only about 3K miles on it and decided at 83 (or his kids decided) that he probably couldn't use it anymore.  Then we bought it.  Original couple seem to have done good maintenance, and the coach looks really good, but Bob did virtually nothing.  Someone dinged up the chrome tailpipe tip and I'm trying to remove it.  Another post got some good advice on that front, and I'm making some progress.  Just about ready for a nice trip next month.

Sailorkane
a little late here and not battery related reply.  But wanted you aware of an often overlooked maintenance item on your 3126 Cat.
There is a Zirk fitting located just behind you fan hub pully.  It needs to be serviced annually.  You need to access it from the top,  that means lifting the bed and metal plates over the top of the engine.

Thanks, RCTime.  I had heard of fan pulleys self-destructing.  Apparently they replaced that bearing with sealed one sometime a few years later.  So, what kind of grease do I use?  I have a grease gun.  Just general grease?  I'm always confused about grease types.... 
I talked to the widow of the original owner and they were good with oil changes, filters and the like.  BUt maybe not the fan pulley....

I use the same grease I lubed the chassis with, however a normal size grease gun fitting will not fit in the opening. between the pulley and block., too narrow.  I purchased a smaller  hand held grease gun with the smaller fitting.  You could grind down a normal fitting also I guess.  Just 2-3 pumps or so.