Forest River Sandpiper BHT321 heavier than spec!

Hi All.

Followiing up on the issue already discussed in other threads (thanks Carl/Tom/All for the help and education), I wanted
to post this fresh to see if anyone else has experienced any similar issues and to see if anyone has any additional
suggestions or similar experiences.

I purchased a 2007 ForestRiver sandpiper BHT321 in summer 2006 to tow with my 2003 Excursion 4x2 6.0L Diesel.
The spec sheet for this trailer claims a tongue weight of 900lbs.  After several posts on this forum, and Carl's constant
insistance on getting it to the scales, the fog started to clear a bit on my trouble.  I've weight the thing empty and full, with and
without load leveling springs tightened, and with the trailer and truck strandalone.  Here's what I got from CAT Scales:
Note: Empty means I have nothing in the trailer at all, but does have two LP tanks, battery, and hefty hitch.

1/04/07: CAT Scale 2872
Truck (empty):
3620 - steer axle
3700 - drive axle

Truck + Trailer (empty, no LL tension)
3040 - steer axle
5400 - drive axle
8680 - TT axles

Truck + Trailer (empty, w/ LL tension)
3460 - steer axle
4860 - driver axle
8800 - TT axles

12/22/2006: CAT Scale 2661
Truck + Trailer (loaded, w/ LL tension)
n/a  - steer axle
5000 - drive axle
9380 - TT axles
Note: not very useful since I failed to get front axle weight and LL was on and varies.

12/26/2006: Fertilizer scale in Florida per request of their delear there (while on vacation in the shop  :-[)
Trailer (loaded)
9380 - TT axles
10620 - TT total

Trailer (loaded)
1380 - tongue only on scale
Note: These previous two seem off by ~120lbs since 10620-9380 is only 1240lbs

From what I make of the above (using only the CAT scale #'s, I think this calculates out to something like:
Empty Tongue weight of ~1080 (spec = 900)
Empty TT weight of ~9800 (spec = 9400)
Weight of our stuff ~800-1000lbs

Assuming my tanks (say, 100), battery (say, 40lbs) and hitch (80) that adds ~220lbs.

So overall weight is pretty close, it's the tongue weight that is off.  I think if I were to take off the
LP tanks, the battery, and the hitch, the 900lbs per spec would also be close.  Was I supposed to factor those
in?  The trailer comes with them (accept maybe a fancy, heavey hitch), I've never seen one with out this,
shouldn't it be included? 

Anyway, this is not even the main concern yet.  Due to the positioning of the axles so far to the rear (I assume
to compensate for the weight of the two slide outs in the rear), just about any weight we add is highly translated to
tongue weight.  That is, all the storage accept the closets on the rear wall, is in front of the axles.  The only outside
storage is dead front.  I've run a some numbers where I've simulated the TT full loaded (assuming all water tanks
are directly over the axle), and the tongue weight could easily get up to ~1700lbs, and that's being carefull with loading/distributing.

The rep at Forest River told me that the tongue weight should not vary much with load (if loaded properly) or else
they would give two tongue weights - dry and fully loaded (which of course they don't).
see http://www.forestriverinc.com/nd/floorplanview.asp?name=35&page=sand&series=Ttrailers
for FRvr spec sheet.

So, what can I do here?  Even being very careful with weight/loading, I'm doomed to always be over tongue
limites on my Excursion (Exc is rated at 1100lbs, and receiver itself is 1200lbs).  Being an engineer, I appreciate having
some margin, which I thought I would have at a 900lbs tongue weight.  This was my first RV purchase.
I went by the manufactures spec sheets and knowledge/advice of the sales guy at FunTime RV in Colleyville.

Besides, what the hell else could pull this thing if not a diesel Excursion?  If I had an F350 I'd have gotten a 5th wheel!
But I can't use a pickup, I have a wife, 4kids, and a grandma to haul too. 

So, is all this par for the course and I should have known better?  Or do you think I can get Forest River
to stand by there claims and correct this design flaw (in my opinion) and bring the tongue weight down within range of
any non-pickup truck vehicle? I think the only way to do this is to move the axles forward a foot or so (not optimal
for empty weight distribution but I can correct this for the rare occasions I'll tow it empty).

If anyone else has similar experiences with this new model, please post.

Thanks in advance,
Sheff

So, is all this par for the course and I should have known better?  Or do you think I can get Forest River
to stand by there claims and correct this design flaw (in my opinion) and bring the tongue weight down within range of
any non-pickup truck vehicle?

Click to expand...

Relax.  A travel trailer should have tongue weight no less than 10% and can have as much as 15%.  The lower level is critical.  A 1380 tongue weight is within those limits.  It does mean that your hitch system, receiver and ball mount must be at least Class IV (max 1400 lbs) or better yet Class V (max 1700 lbs).
The spring bar tension should exceed 1400 lbs.. 

Your Excursion is rated at 11,000 lbs.    You are on the edge of its liimits generally so be careful in loading both trailer and truck.     

From what I make of the above (using only the CAT scale #'s, I think this calculates out to something like:
Empty Tongue weight of ~1080 (spec = 900)
Empty TT weight of ~9800 (spec = 9400)
Weight of our stuff ~800-1000lbs

Click to expand...

We have always said that brochure weights are a fiction. They are the weight of the lightest example of that particular model, without any options and sometimes generic to several floor plans. Almost never exact and never high either.

So overall weight is pretty close, it's the tongue weight that is off.  I think if I were to take off the
LP tanks, the battery, and the hitch, the 900lbs per spec would also be close.  Was I supposed to factor those
in?  The trailer comes with them (accept maybe a fancy, heavey hitch), I've never seen one with out this,
shouldn't it be included? 

Click to expand...

The "dry" tongue weight includes the empty propane tanks but not any propane in them. Not sure what you mean by "hitch" - the only hitch part that comes with the trailer is the coupler that is built into the tongue - the thing that grasps the ball.  The anchors for the spring bars and other hitch parts are part of the weight distributing hitch that you bought yourself and not part of the dry weight.  So dry weight does not include the weight of the hitch except the coupler that is part of the trailer tongue. I think we have repeatedly stated that as well. Are you beginning to understand why we harp so much on this and tell people to forget about dry weight? It is not a useful spec. Manage to the GVWR and you will not go wrong.

The rep at Forest River told me that the tongue weight should not vary much with load (if loaded properly) or else
they would give two tongue weights - dry and fully loaded (which of course they don't).

Click to expand...

Horse Puckey!  For starters, the tongue weight has to go up when the trailer is fully loaded, because it needs to be at least 10% of the actual trailer weight. When the trailer is at its GVWR, the tongue weight better be at least 10% of the GVWR and that's a sight more than 900 lbs.

Thanks as always guys for the input.

Yes, I'm  very familiar with the 10% rule, mosty from reading in this forum.  And it makes sense,
if a trailer is designed correctly, that as one thoughtfully loads it that tongue weight would go up
some to (we all know this level type physics problem - in fact I have an xls sheet where I model various
loading situation to see effect on tongue weight). 

In this situation though, because of two rear sliders the axels are positioned futher back then they would normally be.  Now combine this with the available storage places dictated by the floorplan and manufaturer (remember, back area is consumed by two sliders so not much storage there). you have a design that will quickly become un-towable by everything execpt an F350 or better (and if I had one of these I would have gotten a 5th wheel).

Ok, you guys in the know, and most street wise folks are going to skeptical when the salesman flaps about stuff he's trying to sell you.  But I wasn't born yesterday and I'm an engineer like (lots of you here I think).  I did my homework.  I cross referenced the salesguys statements with TT manufacturers docs, and re-checked my ford X's numbers, an felt I would have a little margin left at the end of the day.  I new I would be close to spec limits, so I don't plan to haul with tanks full (haven't had to yet accept to the dump station in the park) and have spent extra money to get the best hitch, break controller, expensive truck shocks, air bags, rear stabalizer bar, ...

So, I'm guilty of :
- listening to the sales guy but verifying with the both TT and truck manu myself
- planning to go close to spec limits but not cross it, so spent whatever I needed to shore up as much
  as I could to make the best of this situation.

No you guys say "ha", you can't believe the printed documentation or salesguys.  Well, I won't accept that.
You may well be right (actually, I'm pretty confident you're right), but that's BS.  They sold me a trailer
that when loaded ~1/2 max load capacity (other than water tanks) as carefully as possible, is not towable by any damn car or SUV sold in this country (that I know of anyway). 

Simply put, I think there's a design flaw in this trailer.  I think they just missed it with the two rear slides pushing the axles so far back and storage forward.  I've already spoken with my neighbor/lawyer who thinks it's a pretty clear misrepresentation by the dealer and the manufactor.

So, my plan is to take the trailer back to the dealer, tell them to call Forest River (they know of my situation)
and work out a plan to get this trailer tongue weight within or near spec, or buy the trail back from me.
Honestly, all they'd have to do is move the axles forward about 1-2feet I think.  From what I can tell, it
looks like a pretty simple task.  Hardest part with be the flimsy skirts.  It might be a little light on tongue weight when empty now, but a) I doubt I'll be hauling it empty, and b) it's a lot easier to add some up front weight when needed then to remove it.

Maybe I'm being very niave, and you guys have learned that this is just the way it is.
But I'm fed up with folks not standing up and taking responsibility for what the do, say, and sell.
I'm an engineer, and I do.  I expect the same from them.  I'm not nit picking, it doesn't have to be exact,
but it does have to be reasonably close.  Two folks at Forest River admitted to me that they do NOT have any staff engineers.  Lippert compenets (builds frame, places axel mounts) claims they don't engineer it either, they just to work to FR's blueprints.  So they simply screwed this one up and they need to fix it!

Sorry for the soap boxing...I'll keep you posted on my progress.

sheff

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