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RVing message boards => Destinations, RV Parks, Routes => Camping at Wal*Mart and other non-campgrounds => Topic started by: trazoe on September 09, 2005, 09:11:19 PM

Title: WalMart campground?
Post by: trazoe on September 09, 2005, 09:11:19 PM
We have never stayed in a Walmart parking lot, rest area or truck stop.  We've always dropped the 20 or so bucks per night on a campground, even if it is just passing through.  Truck stops are always so noisy and rest areas scare me after dark.  Plus, I have noticed that a lot of them do not allow camping or parking for over 8 hours.  Not to say that doesn't mean you couldn't 'park' there lot enough to catch a night's sleep, we just don't do it.  There's something about a Walmart parking lot that scares me too.  I'd do it in a pinch, over a rest area or truck stop, but not unless I had no choice.  I've seen plenty of folks do it, just not for me.  Take note though, there are some Walmarts that do NOT allow overnight camping and you will find signs stating so on their lightposts.

And excellent point about rolling out the awning and the chairs and unhooking the tow vehicle.  It should be a stopover, not a campout.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Ron on September 09, 2005, 09:43:07 PM
I am not aware of any Wal-Mart that will not allow overnight stays unless local ordinances, usually prompted by the local campgrounds through their association and affinity group, forbid it.  I strongly support boycotting campgrounds in any area that have such ordinances.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on September 09, 2005, 10:36:36 PM
I strongly support boycotting campgrounds in any area that have such ordinances.

I guess I don't share that view Ron. Like WalMart or any other business, campgrounds need to make money to survive. Boycotting CGs in an area that has such an ordinance merely helps to drive CGs out of business and that can only hurt RVers. Why strongly support anything that can hurt RVers?

Personally, I don't stay overnight at a WalMart and just have to shake my head when I see RVers staking out their spots in a WM parking lot in the middle of the day and they're still there the middle of the following day.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Ron on September 09, 2005, 10:50:53 PM
We don't normally overnight at Wal-Marts or such but there have been a few  occassions that there was a choice of driving on when we were tired of park somewhere and no campground was available.  Less than 4or 5 occassions since 1998.

However I strongly oppose any business that pushes to have ordinances passed that would force me to their place of business.  I not only support boycotting I have been known to contact them and let them know my position.  I don't really believe a good campground is going to be hurt in by a few RVers overnighting someplace other than their campground.  There are some campgrounds that are so poor boondocking somewhere is a plus in comparison.

As for those that spent more than one night in a parking lot or set up their Awnings etc I do not approve of that either.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on September 09, 2005, 10:59:42 PM
However I strongly oppose any business that pushes to have ordinances passed that would force me to their place of business.

If a city or town has an odinance banning overnight in parking lots, how would you know it was the result of a campground pushing to have the ordinance passed? I know of a number of places with such ordinances and there are no CGs in the same city.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: trazoe on September 10, 2005, 08:14:21 AM
I agree, how would you know that the campground had anything to do with getting the ordinance passed?  It could very well have been in place before the campground was even in existence.

One place I do believe seeing no camping signs was the Walmart in Ludington, Michigan.  It has been a while, but I am pretty sure it was one of the places.  It is pretty touristy, and the parks fill up quick, so I think the probably had to do it our their lot would be full!
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Ron on September 10, 2005, 09:32:39 AM
First of all I may not even be aware such an ordinance exists since we don't normally even attempt to park overnight in a Wal-Mart.  However, like Billings, MT I found out because the subject came up while talking to a local.  A call to city hall confirmed the ordinance exists and was prompted by a campground owners association.  I know Cheyenne's ordinance was also prompted by by the campgrounds owners Association because we have several Friends there.  When I become aware of such campground actions then they are on my boycott list. 
Some times participation can be confirmed with a simple call to the campground.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: John From Detroit on September 10, 2005, 05:06:35 PM
One thing you need to do when boycotting a campground is LET THEM KNOW WHY.. I do this with some stores espically at Christmas time... I have two stores where I make a point of not shopping during the "Bell Ringing" season (Salvation Army bell ringers) and I make sure I let the store know why (They won't let the bell ringers on property... I have a Christmas story, it involves a bell ringer, best Christmas I'd have in many, many, years)


Wal-Mart has a web site that lets you know if you can park there (or someone does) overnight, and you can, and should (As has been previously noted in this thread) check with the store manager before overnighting.  If there is an ordance odds are the manager can tell you why he refused, the ordiance will be "Dated" if you go look it up and it may be possible to get minutes of the city council or whatever it's called meeting and see who spoke for and against.

That's if you wish to go that far
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on September 10, 2005, 05:55:55 PM
I prefer to have the option of a campground in a location than have the CG shut down because of some organized boycott against them in favor of parking at Wal*Mart. Not being able to stay at either one doesn't do me much good if I need a place to stay for the night  ;D
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Smoky on September 10, 2005, 07:06:43 PM
I am an inveterate (sp?) Wal-Mart parker and not the least ashamed to say it.  Pulling into a campground when on a long haul is just too much trouble.  I am not going to use a campground unless I can stay there for two or more days, preferably three.  I would not boycott a campground but I am very put off by the ones who do not understand the usefulness of long haul parking at Wal-Mart.  When I pull into a Wal-Mart I am dead tired and on the move.  Don't want to fool with hookups or tricky maneuvers.  Just want to run into WM, replenish my supplies, sometimes walk to a nearby restaurant, and then hit the hay for an early start next morning.

As always I obey public parking etiquette, not wanting to ruin this necessary and beneficial privilege given to us by the WM company.

Long live WM!

BTW, you will generally meet a great class of folks on a WM parking lot.  Most of them are long haulers with interesting tales of far off places.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Wendy on September 10, 2005, 08:37:04 PM
Mike and I often stop overnight at Wal-Marts. We never stay more than one night and we stop there because we don't need hookups, we can't see paying $25 or more just to park, and often we're just plain tired and need a place to sleep. Not everyone can afford $25+ per night for a campground, not everyone needs hookups, not everyone wants to be in a campground just to sleep. And we've always felt safe in the WM lots as opposed to some truck stops and rest stops which were noisy and unsafe.

Cortez happens to be one of the places where you cannot stop for the night in the local Wal-Mart parking lot. The campground owners pushed through a city ordinance forbidding overnight parking at Wal-Mart because, they claim, there's a health hazard (?????). My belief is that this has hurt the city because the people who would stop in the Wal-Mart (and coincidentally shop there and pay city sales tax) will not stop here if they can't park in the WM lot. They will NOT stay in the local $25+ campgrounds. They'll continue on to the next town that DOES allow parking in the WM lot. So the campgrounds don't get the customers they think they'll get and the city loses out on some sales tax revenue.

Wendy
p.s. If you're ever passing through Cortez, please don't bypass us. The manager of the local Wal-Mart doesn't care if you park in his parking lot and the police don't enforce the ordinance because they say it's private property and they won't remove anyone unless the store manager asks them to. You'll get a nice night's sleep in a wonderful small town. And you can call us for a free Ranger-led tour of Mesa Verde, Hovenweep, and the San Juans.


Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on September 10, 2005, 09:39:20 PM
If I can't afford a night in a campground I'll sell the coach rather than hop from WM to WM pretending to be a shopper. It's just not my style of camping. Besides, how much stuff could I buy at different WM stores on consecutive days?

There are plenty of legitimate CGs that are reasonably/lower priced, some even free, and are far nicer places to stay at.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: John From Detroit on September 11, 2005, 09:50:20 AM
If I can't afford a night in a campground I'll sell the coach rather than hop from WM to WM pretending to be a shopper. It's just not my style of camping. Besides, how much stuff could I buy at different WM stores on consecutive days?

There are plenty of legitimate CGs that are reasonably/lower priced, some even free, and are far nicer places to stay at.

The problem Tom, is sometimes you are just stopping for the night (or day) cause you are too tired to go on and the wal-mart is right there

The one time I stopped in a wal-mart lot (only for a few minutes) trust me, the stop had to be done and NOW (Like I said, just a few minutes, not even worth shutting the engine off for.. but when you gotta stop, you gotta stop)

I do agree, if I'm going to stop, use the shower, (Facility shower, not rig's) plug in, hook up and all that.. A campground

But if it's just cause I'm starting to think I should take a few hours off the road and go horozintal,  Well, any parking lot capable of holding the MH without damage is a good place.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on September 11, 2005, 10:35:13 AM
The problem Tom, is sometimes you are just stopping for the night (or day) cause you are too tired to go on and the wal-mart is right there

Understood John and I have no issue with folks doing that. It's just not for me. Yesterday we were on a long run and felt we were too tired to safely go on, so we stopped at a campground that was closer than the nearest WalMart.

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The one time I stopped in a wal-mart lot (only for a few minutes)

I've done that myself John and not just at WalMart. I made several "gotta go now" stops at rest areas just yesterday. But I wouldn't stay overnight at any of them.

Quote
Well, any parking lot capable of holding the MH without damage is a good place.

Each to his own John. Although some folks think I have something against WalMart, my real concern is safety. If I'm passing through a strange town, I really have no idea if the WalMart I see is in a safe place or not. A few times my other half has said "let's just pull over into that WalMart for the night" and I've said "no, we'll find a CG".
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Ron on September 11, 2005, 12:30:08 PM
I am pretty sure that Judy Barns has no first hand  knowledge of such infractions.  Should I ever see an RVer comminting the infractions she mentioned I would be the first to report them, aaa maybe the second if you beat me to it.  Judy Barns has basically accused you me and any other Escapee of committing these infractions.  I point out accused but no proof. As for us even though she has accused us we know we haven't committed such acts.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on September 11, 2005, 12:42:08 PM
In all my travels I have ignored ordinance postings at WM.

You are a braver man than I Smoky. We once overnighted near a marina where I was "working" an event when our boat club brought 80 boats into the marina for the weekend (all paid their dues of course). At 2.00am I awoke to a loud rapping on the door of the coach and a bright light shining through the blinds. I knew this had to be the local police and decided to lay there quietly, pretending nobody was home. Right then Chris awoke yelling "someone's at the door".

Standing there half awake in my PJs, I tried explaining to the officer "we're with those boats over there", but he just said "move on, we don't allow RV camping here". At 2.30am we took a room in the Marriott at the marina and put the coach in their parking lot, with permission of course. This episode probably contributes to my reluctance to stay at places like WM.

Quote
...ask permission from the manager. It has ALWAYS been granted, though they advise me of the ordinance and give me helpful suggestions to deal with it.

I'm curious, what kind of advice do they give you Smoky?
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Smoky on September 12, 2005, 01:48:39 AM
Tom:

I should have been more clear, sorry.  It is only the ordinances at WM I ignore.  Though I always check with the store manager first.

As for advice, it has been varied, but always emphasizes that WM themselves are opposed to such ordinances and the rest usually has to do with the specifics of the local situation.

Last time this happened we were in on this trip in eastern Wyoming (or was it western SD, not sure) and there was a posting on some of the light poles. 

Upon visiting the store manager, he explained that this was brought about by the local Yogi Bear campground over staunch opposition of WM.  He said that the police seldom enforced it and usually only when an RV was there longer than 24 hours.  He also said we should insist we were very tired, if they knocked, and even hint at engine troubles.  But he said it was VERY unlikely anyone would  bother us.  His only request was that we park at the rear of the lot, which we already had.

He added the owner of the campground would occasionally drive by and make a list of those RVs parked there.  This is similar to the kinds of comments and advice I have received from other WM store managers.  All of them had a smile on their face, almost like it is some sort of game with nutty campground owners.  I realize I am only getting one side of the story, but it does not appear that the ordinance signs are much more than a scare tactic.  At least on WM grounds.

I would likely have ignored his advice about fibbing, and simply moved on had the police chose to enforce it and knocked on my door.  I am  always VERY compliant when police are involved.   If the police think it is a serious matter, then I will be polite and take it seriously and move on. 

My main point in this thread is that the whole thing is pretty much overblown, and unless people are uncomfortable, they should do what they feel they need or want to do as long as they follow etiquette.

In three years of WMing on long haul legs I have never had a problem.  I don’t worry about it.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on September 12, 2005, 03:08:25 AM
Thanks for that explanation Smoky. Interesting that WM would actively encourage ignoring a local ordinance.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: John From Detroit on September 12, 2005, 05:43:49 AM
I can't speak for every state as truly I don't know... But Michigan I do know.

The parking lot of a Wal-Mart is PRIVATE PROPERTY, now, police can enter private property w/o permission of the owner or his authorized agent (in this case the store manager) for a number of reasons.

1: If they are shopping wal-mart
2: If they are in "hot pursuit" of someone who runs across said property
3: If they observe a Felony in progress
4: If they observe a fire on the property
5: Only as far as is required to request permission
7: To perform a property inspection for ordance compliance (This however affects the property owner, not you the parker)
8: In some cases handicapped parking rules are well written and allow the officer to ticket on private property
9: With a warrant

Oh yes, there are other reasons not listed here, but basically not one of them apply to a parking violation

So, the only way, here in Michigan, they could ticket you at 3am on a Sunday would be to get a judge out of bed to sign a warrant.  For a parking ticket, likely about $100... Trust me.. They are not going to do that... (If they tried it might well be 3am NEXT Sunday monring, long after you have moved on, that they get back to that parking lot)


They can not enforce parking regulations on private property WITHOUT THE Store Manager Requesting they do so.

They also can not enforce stop signs and other traffic regulations on private property without the manager's request

The greatest danger would be some jerk parks a big SUV right in front of the store's front doors, and the manager calls to get him ticketed or towed... And the officer takes the invite to include your rig... In my years of working in retail,  I have observed many such jerks parked right in front of the store, in the very clearly marked fire lane... NOT ONE TIME did the manager call.  In my years (25) as a police dispatcher, We only got calls if the car was there for many hours (Like 2 or 3 days) or if the owner of the car was someone the store owner wished to run off (this happened fairly often)   In my 3 years as a tow truck dispatcher the illegal parker has to be very bold in order to get towed.

And finally... if your rig is properly parked, and you don't drop the jacks or put out the awning or lawn chairs... How is the officer to know you are not just shopping... I mean.. If I was overnighting at a Wal-Mart I would put out one slide (the bed) but If I was buying Toilet Paper I'd put that slide out as well cause the main bathroom is on the far side of the bed and it's either put out the slide or climb over

(NOTE: in all cases another employee can step in for the manger,,, However with wall mart the employees serve at the pleasure of the next person up the corporate ladder, the top rung at the store is the on-duty manager and any employee who called the cops on you (other than he) would be in a world of unplesentness when the manager found out)

Now... A passing campground manager can write down your license plate... but only the store manager can request enforcement

Of course the city can fine Wal-Mart for allowing ... but how many ordiances are written to allow that? (Likely zero)

Let me see if I can get lucky with Detroit (Alas, I'm on the cell connection at this time and it's not fast enough to load the Municiple Codes.. Will have to grab them when I'm on DSL)  Of course there are ano wall Marts in Detroit at this time

I know Detroit has an ordance against a campsight within 10 feet of the curb (or some other arburtary distance) as I recall reading it on a trip to find out just what ordance they claimed I had violated once (Turns out I was not in violation)
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Smoky on September 14, 2005, 07:07:55 AM
Tom:

I think Detroit John may be on to the reason. 

My take is that WM wants very much to be RV friendly, and sees the campground owners that get ordinances passed as being somewhat paranoid and getting their nose into WM's business.  There is certainly no love lost between WM managers and campground owners who fuss with the WM parking lot.  I have a LOT of admiration and loyalty to WM, so I think their efforts do indeed pay off for their business in terms of repeat RV business..

Heck, if I were a CG owner, I would go make friends with the local WM managers and ask permission to post flyers advertising my CG on the RV windows.  It would be a friendly message welcoming them to the area, and suggesting if they plan {edit} to stay for awhile, that we have great hookups and amenities and to drop on by for a look-see.  I would add a comment that if they were just passing through, that maybe the next time they might want to stay awhile and visit the local attractions, which I would list.  I think any RVer receiving a message like this would feel good about BOTH the CG and WM!   I would certainly remember that CG and make a note of them!

IMO, adversarial approaches seldom pay off.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: edjunior on September 14, 2005, 07:48:01 AM
You know, as I got to thinking about this more, and seeing all the interesting posts and thoughts on all this, it dawned on me that in all the WM parking lots around San Antonio, and even others where I've been primarily in Texas, rarely do I ever see more than one or two RV's in a WM parking lot.  Rarely.  Now granted, I don't make a habit of always looking, but really, those big rigs are kinda hard to miss!  Anyway, my point is, if the local CG's are really concerned about missing out on one or two folks just passing through, I think they have more problems than they're willing to admit to.  And I really agree with Smoky's assessment to have the local CG's get friendly with the WM's.  Heck, that's what this whole RVing thing is all about...being friendly and meeting new and different people.  As the old saying goes...why can't we just all be friends!?!? :D :D
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on September 14, 2005, 07:49:08 AM
Interesting perspective Smoky. You and John may well be right about the reason, although I'm surprised that WM would want to alienate local small businesses.

One thing I believe WM could do for RVers would be to carry a better selection of their so-called "RV supplies", including some better quality items. Lacking a Camping World, which are few and far between, I've frequently popped into WM looking for something and came away disappointed. Although the selection/inventory varies by store location, they typically carry just a few of the cheapest/low quality items. Heck, they even quit carrying ProtectAll a few years ago.

As a comparison, in the boating world that I know you're very familiar with, WM sells 3M polishing compound at half the West Marine price, although they'll only have a couple of bottles on the shelf. So I buy their shelf stock and take the receipt to West Marine where they have a larger stock of the same product and they match prices.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: CeeBeeEll on September 17, 2005, 09:01:35 PM
Interesting discussion.  I saw another topic concerning staying in an "RV Resort" vs. a woodsy campground.  Seems it received the same type of discussion.  In other words, RVing is truly different strokes for different folks.:D

Now, for my 2 cents worth.  I live in an area that is not a tourist area and there are very few (make that no) campgrounds in the area.  Wal-Mart has been trying to build a store in a very affluent and growing area near an interstate bypass loop for over a  year.. with the nearby homeowners fighting it tooth and nail.  The zoning adjustment board meetings have become pretty wild, and have resulted in law suites on both sides.  One of the key items the homeowners association is demanding from the zoning adjustment board if they do grant the permits, is no overnite parking.  According to the homeowners, overnite parking is a breeding ground for crime and drugs. 

So its not always just a campground owners issue.  
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Smoky on September 18, 2005, 10:29:51 AM
Tom:

"Although I'm surprised that WM would want to alienate local small businesses. "

How does this happen?  CGs I can see being alienated. 

However, the other small businesses at the mall benefit just as WM does.  We not only shop WM, but hit Radio Shack, Best Buy, restaurants, Home Depot, and many others as needed.  None of them have ever shown alienation and we often chat with them about our MH and travels, with the MH in plain sight.  In Ohio, at Ace Hardware, the entire store turned out, both employees and customers, to take tours through our MH while we were buying hardware there the day we left to head west for Ron [edit].

As for carrying a better selection of RV supplies, remember WM is not a Boating World nor do they pretend to be.  They are not an RV store like Camping World.  How many kinds of RV toilet papers are there anyway?  WM simply supplies the emergency basics.  I think they do a better job than most small campgrounds (but not all) on RV supplies.  But I admit they do not carry the broad line of marine stores and RV stores.

As for crime?  Gee whiz.  I have yet to read about crime at the interstate WMs, but I guess it has happened.  With their WM patrol cars, cameras on the light poles, etc, they are exceedingly safe places to be.

This subject ALWAYS makes interesting discussion on more forums than just ours. 

All I can comment is on our own first hand observations.  My Admiral was very opposed to stopping at WMs when we started out.  Now she examines the WM Atlas each day on our long hauls and struggles over which WM would be the most convenient and interesting stop.  We are developing our own list of WMs, that had the best scenery, the most convenient surrounding stores, the easiest access, and the most interesting fellow travelers.

I think maybe one thing that has turned off some of the anti WM people is the DVD published by a Montana Public radio station entitled “This is nowhere." 

My wife and I love that DVD and play it often.  Just last night we were relating to our RV visitors from McCall Idaho who are visiting here in Kalispell with us about this thread on the forum.  That led to putting on the DVD and we had a hoot watching it once again.

The thing about that show is that the TV producer did a really good job of capturing both the good and the bad about WM overnight stays.  And yes there were a couple etiquette infractions.  The worst was the redneck guy who hated cops and who got out his ATV and ran it all over the WM parking lot and even over the grassed in areas just to show off to the camera.  And there was another couple sitting in their lawn chairs with all kinds of junk set up.  But then also there were the motorhomes with no stuff out, and the people being interviewed either inside their coach or simply standing outside their coach.  The purpose of the DVD was not to preach etiquette or editorialize about it but just simply show an interesting subculture that most people do not even know about.

I fear that the most memorable (and sometimes funniest) parts of the DVD were the bad parts, and I worry that people who never really stay at WMs likely are overly influenced by the only image they have, coming from sources like this DVD.

At any rate, a simply fascinating sub culture of RV life!   :D  We see nothing to get overly serious about, and like I said before, everyone can make their own decision on these matters and keep on enjoying the good life of RVing.  I sincerely doubt if our enjoyment of a WM stop is every going to affect anyone here on the forum in any way at all.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on September 18, 2005, 11:23:57 AM
Smoky

I think you misundertood several parts of my message, or maybe read more into them that I intended. I'll try to clarify:

"Although I'm surprised that WM would want to alienate local small businesses. " How does this happen? CGs I can see being alienated.

Campgrounds were all that I was talking about when referring to local small businesses in the context of that message and the one it was replying to.

Quote
As for carrying a better selection of RV supplies, remember WM is not a Boating World nor do they pretend to be. They are not an RV store like Camping World. How many kinds of RV toilet papers are there anyway?.

But the RV supplies they carry are usually the junk ones, or close to them. An example is the sewer hose(s). No choice of better ones like Rhino. I'd shop for a lot more RV supplies at WM if they carried better products or had a broader selection. It's well over an hour drive from here to the nearest Camping World and I'd much prefer to pop over to the local WM store if they had what I need. Similar story if we're on the road. Just a week ago I needed some "RV stuff", the nearest CW was 2 hours away and there was a local WM that didn't have what I wanted or had an inferior product.

We don't use "RV toilet paper", for all the reasons discussed here in the past, so that's not what I'm talking about

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As for crime? Gee whiz. I have yet to read about crime at the interstate WMs. ....All I can 's comment is on our own first hand observations.

I've not challenged or questioned your first hand experience and it's clearly given you a good basis for your pro-WM camping position. My issue is that I don't have local knowledge of a particular WM location we just happen to be passing, so I just don't know if it's a good place to stay or not. Someone can tell me they've not experienced a problem at WMs 'till they're blue in the face, but the fact is that there's only a very small chance they've stayed at a WM location I might visit next week. So their experience isn't relevant.

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I think maybe one thing that has turned off some of the anti WM people is the DVD published by a Montana Public radio station entitled “This is nowhere."

I'd never heard of it until reading your message, so it didn't turn me off. But it sounds like something worth watching.

As I've said, each to his own, but I won't make a recommendation about staying at any place without stating the pros and cons, which inevitably will include my own biases.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Ron on September 18, 2005, 11:40:37 AM
Quote
How many kinds of RV toilet papers are there anyway?

The worst RV Toilet paper is the packages marked RV Toilet paper.  We use Scott's single ply and second choice is Angel Soft. Both of which is available at your local Super Wal-Mart store in the grocery section. ;D ;D
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on September 18, 2005, 11:48:36 AM
Oh no, I see another TP discussion starting  ;D

Anyone wishing to read about the infamous RV Forum Toilet paper test, developed by George Mullen, and its results, here's the link:

http://www.rvforum.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=113&Itemid=41
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Phil on September 18, 2005, 12:34:57 PM
Oh no, I see another TP discussion starting  ;D

Great news, Tom.  I have been wondering what the best TP is for my motorhome.  I like the high strength, double ply stuff.

Phil
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Smoky on September 18, 2005, 06:45:24 PM
Tom:

Ok on the CGs being the alienated businesses.  Sorry I misinterpreted your comment.

I also agree about the WM RV supplies being lesser quality (though not really junk).  But when you need a roll of toilet paper, does anyone really care?  Better than dollar bills LOL!  But it is more than just RV stuff of course.  The presence of RV stuff is I believe simply a form of acknowledgment by WM of the loyalty of RVers.  We can stock up on all kinds of “necessaries” besides RV stuff, of course.  I hope you don’t think I am recommending that everyone buy RV stuff from WM, as that was not the point of my comments.

I don't know the local situation either on the local WMs we stay at.  But given a choice between an unknown campground and an unknown WM, I will take the unkown WM hands down, at least on the interstates.  The only time I got ripped off was at a CG and a big well known one at that.  I do admit though that I once got banged up (the trailer) at a WM by a guy in a pickup hauling big red pipes who dragged a red line down my trailer and ran off before I could get his tag.  He was not an RVer though.

“But it sounds like something worth watching.”  Aye Tom I think you would enjoy it, though it would not improve your view of WM.  Likely worsen it.  I believe you would enjoy the humor though.  You can order it from any of those RV online bookstores and places that sell RV tapes and DVDs.  We got ours from the same place we ordered the QZ DVD which is also most enjoyable.

[added by edit]  Just occured to me, we have a big collection of RV DVDs.  We got Baha (sp?) WallMart, Quartzite, Glacier  Park, Desert Boondocking, nearly all the RV Today shows, and more.  If anyone is interested in viewing any of these we can either loan them at QZ, or have a "viewing" in QZ this coming rally.  We could seat as many as are interested if the weather is nice and we can turn on our outdoor TV/DVD.  Dunno if this would fit into the QZ social calendar, but if so, the offer is there.

Ron, I tried Scott single ply and it was too rough on our bottoms so we went back to the softer 2 ply Thetford.  I am still open to non RV paper so will give that Angel Soft a try next stop.  I find 2 ply Thetford very satisfactory but quite expensive.  I’d love to find something cheaper that will still feel kind to our olde butts.

Tom, I will check out those TP tests.  Hope they include some sort of rating on the comfort factor!
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Ron on September 18, 2005, 07:19:39 PM
Smoky,

Keep using Thetford TP and you will find out why the experienced RVer doesn't.  IMHO Thetford TP is not really RV friendly nor is any other RV TP.  Bottom line Thetford products are NOT welcome in the Eagle.  After a several months of using what you are using you will probably find out why when you begin to loose BWT capacity.  Read up on the TP tests at the link Tom provided.

Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on September 18, 2005, 07:23:56 PM
Quote
But when you need a roll of toilet paper, does anyone really care?

LOL well, since you put it that way, no  ;D

Quote
I hope you don’t think I am recommending that everyone buy RV stuff from WM, as that was not the point of my comments.

No I don't, but there have been a number of comments made about buying stuff at WM as a way of saying "thanks for the free campsite". Buying stuff at WM has also been given as a reason for overnighting there. I had made the comment that I didn't know what I'd keep buying at successive WM stores on consecutive nights, and RV supplies somehow cropped up in the conversation. I was merely lamenting the fact that I'd have more reason to go to WM if they had a better selection &/or quality of some merchandise.

Quote
I do admit though that I once got banged up (the trailer) at a WM by a guy in a pickup hauling big red pipes who dragged a red line down my trailer and ran off before I could get his tag.  He was not an RVer though.

There's another reason not to take our coach to a WM. Since he wasn't an RVer, it's unlikely he'd be dragging his big red pipes around a CG. When our coach got dinged soon after we bought it, it cost me $2,000. I can stay at a lot of CGs for that amount of money  ;D

Quote
You can order it from any of those RV online bookstores and places that sell RV tapes and DVDs.

Thanks. We have an online store on our web site, so I might just  order it there.

Quote
If anyone is interested in viewing any of these we can either loan them at QZ, or have a "viewing" in QZ this coming rally.

Great idea and that's very kind of you. We had 22 folks in our coach when Betty & Terry Brewer showed the DVD of their Mexico piggyback trip. They injected appropriate comments all the way through and there were lots of oohs and ahhs.

Quote
Hope they include some sort of rating on the comfort factor!

Well, the winner was Quilted Northern, quite a comfortable TP  ;D
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Smoky on September 18, 2005, 07:58:44 PM
Tom:

I will look into Quilted Northern.  If it is as comfortable as 2 ply Thetford and a lower price, certainly will switch.

Yes, parking lots can be dangerous to the coach’s health.  I find that a better negative than crime etc.    However, don’t forget the tree at Duncan’s campground in MD that ran across the path and hit my coach!   ;D

Ron:

I used Thetford for two years in the trailer and never had a problem.  What is BWT??
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Ron on September 18, 2005, 08:02:34 PM
Quote
What is BWT??
  Black Water Tank.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Woody on September 18, 2005, 08:03:14 PM
Smoky,

My motorhome came with a supply of Thetford from the previous owner so I used it til it ran out. I then bought some Angel Soft because of the recommendations here and the test results, and the fact that it is fairly inexpensive at the local supermarkets.
Since I have one of the clear elbows with the flush attachment I can see what comes out of my black water tank, not something I would recommend. But, since switching to Angel Soft I have never seen paper come out in clumps, it has always been liquified.

Woody
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Smoky on September 18, 2005, 08:23:37 PM
Woody:

Sounds like a winner to me.  Is it as soft on the butt as 2 ply Thetford?   The Admiral here beside me says she has used Angel Soft in the old non movable house and liked it.  Looks worth checking out.  Would not surprise me if WM carries it too! LOL!

Thanks for the definition Ron!
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: John From Detroit on September 18, 2005, 10:41:00 PM
Note to Tom:  Re the TP portion of this thread..

Anyone tested the new "less is more" Charmin?

Tried it in the office where I used to work and guess what

They are not lying with that ad.. You really do use fewer sheets per wipe
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Ron on September 18, 2005, 10:48:38 PM
The last time I rested Charmin it failed miserably.  That was a few years ago so they might have changed again.  Charmin did test good some time ago but they changed something.

When you do the TP test let us know the results.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on September 19, 2005, 12:44:27 AM
I will look into Quilted Northern. If it is as comfortable as 2 ply Thetford and a lower price, certainly will switch.

FWIW QN is a lot more comfortable than 2 ply Thetford (I've used both), but that's not why folks are suggesting you change. Ron was quite pointed, but you are free to do whatever you want with that advice. The issue with Thetford is apparently the glue that prevents the tissue from breaking down. Not having had a blockage yet is like saying you haven't yet seen a problem at a WM parking lot. When it happens it won't be pleasant to deal with and having saved a few pennies won't seem to have been worth it.

Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice.

[edit]Typo[/edit]
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Fred_M on December 15, 2005, 05:08:34 PM
Back to overnighting in parking lots and local cops running you off.  If one wakes you up and tells you to leave, get him to put it in writing and sign it along with his badge number, or videotape him doing so, and turn him into the highway patrol.  The reason is he has just violated DOT laws written to protect the public from sleepy drivers.  The law was written with the over the road triuck driver in mind, but applies to all drivers.  It's illegal to drive when you are tired or sleepy, and this is a federal law that will superceed any stupid local ordinances. As long as your rig is not causing a traffic danger, blocking traffic, or a tresspassing complaint has been filed, you can pretty much stop anywhere you like...to sleep.   Most of them silly signs are unlawful for the cities to enforce, but they do it anyway because most Americans no longer demand their rights and liberties protected by the law.  If they force you to drive on, and you have a wreck, you will probally own that city, if you have proof.  Fred 
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Sue/Al on December 15, 2005, 05:37:48 PM
The subject title says it all...Walmart Campground???? there in lies the problem, Walmart is not a campground, an overnight spot possible unless posted "No Overnight", and don't blame this on area campgrounds, it is set in stone by county laws, as here in Fla., while Walmart Mgrs, may be willing and some go against the county laws and allow it, most do not..And why have these laws come about you may ask, well due to the many people who have actually set up camp, awnings out, lawn chairs, grills etc. etc. for weeks,and being a nuisance, you always have those people who will take advantage and spoil it for everyone else. that is why in most cases the local cops are called, they are doing their job enforcing the county laws.Just because many of us RVer's are law abiding, nice quiet folks....believe not all are, come on we've all seen it!
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Wendy on December 15, 2005, 08:53:21 PM
The "No Overnight Parking" law in Cortez is a city ordinance, pushed through the city council by the campground owners (I was there at the council meeting, I know). I have never, ever seen anyone "camped" at our local Wal-Mart, or anywhere in Cortez outside of a campground. I have never seen a grill put out or even an awning. I've seen neat, tidy RVs parked there overnight. We've parked on many occasions at Wal-Marts across the country. We have never put out the awning, grill, satellite dish, or even the dog crate. We stop to fix dinner and to eat and, yes, usually to shop. But if we were asked by a police officer to move along, we would probably move along....no need to hassle a cop who's just doing his job. If campground prices returned to reasonable prices, I'd probably stay with them more often.

Wendy
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: John From Detroit on December 15, 2005, 09:20:53 PM
The subject title says it all...Walmart Campground???? there in lies the problem, Walmart is not a campground, an overnight spot possible unless posted "No Overnight", and don't blame this on area campgrounds, i

Several of the members of this forum have posted earlier in this thread about attending city council meetings where such laws were being considered... Also links to minutes of such meetings have been posted and/or links to newspaper and other media articles about these meetings.

In each and every case those speaking in FAVOR of prohibiting overnight parking on Wal-Mart (or other) lots were indeed campground owners, or their legal representives.

So, yes, we blame campground owners... Follow the links, read the info for yourself and then reply


As for Fred... Often if you ask to officer to put it in writing and sign it,  he will be more than happy to do so, but then you are going to meet the officer again... On your court date

Could you please give us chapter and verse of the federal DOT statute?  Thanks in advance (I do have an old copy of "What Every Commericial Driver Must Know" and I'm sure it's in there, but alas I'm not sure where it is at this time)
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Sue/Al on December 15, 2005, 10:43:19 PM
While we have never attended a meeting of any kind in our city or county, and do not know who attends, we do know people who work for our city/county and have spoken to Walmart Managers where we have heard about the campers for weeks at a time, and we are speaking about our Beautiful State of Florida, not anywhere else. And also pretty sure that Walmart is considered private property owned by them deeded to them? and if your sleepy and pull in my driveway also(private property) you will get chased, and whether or not you get in an accident, you would not have a leg to stand on trying to sue, in a court of law. The fore mentioned is strictly an example....as far as challenging the police if the parking lot is clearly posted No Overnight, well Lot's of luck...Ya'll    For cheap camping check out state parks, they're all over never found one over $20.00 of course we get senior discounts too.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Smoky on December 18, 2005, 05:17:14 PM
Tom:

I tried Quilted Northern and finally had to give up on it.  Three jammed macerators in a two week period.  I went back to Thetford and no more problems.  This might be macerator specific, dunno.

Recently we switched from Thetford to a more comfortable deluxe single ply Scott and still have had no problems.  Right now Scott deluxe single ply is our choice, but we still have an open mind and an open toilet.   :D
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Ron on December 18, 2005, 09:43:52 PM
Quote
Tom:

I went back to Thetford and no more problems. 

Recently we switched from Thetford to a more comfortable deluxe single ply Scott and still have had no problems.  Right now Scott deluxe single ply is our choice, but we still have an open mind and an open toilet.   :D

You were pretty lucky you didn't have problems with Thetford TP.  Thetford products are not welcome in our coach.  We use Scotts single ply and have done so for a few years now. Angel Soft is also good last I knew.  IMHO it is a very good idea to perform the TP test occasionally since the makeup can change.  Chemin use to be very good but then they tried to improve it or something and it went bad.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: BernieD on December 18, 2005, 11:10:52 PM
You were pretty lucky you didn't have problems with Thetford TP.  Thetford products are not welcome in our coach. 

Ron

There are products you should take another look at occasionally. For example, Thetford sells 2 TP products, a 1 ply and a "soft" 2 ply. We used the 1 ply for many years and had good results with it. As a matter of fact it was rated as high as Northern Quilted in the TP test. We stopped using it a couple of years ago when the formula was changed. Thetford may have gone back to the original formula. If so, it is an excellent product that won't clog your holding tank. On the other hand, the 2 ply was always a disaster.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Ron on December 19, 2005, 09:27:59 AM
Quote
There are products you should take another look at occasionally.

IMHO Thetford is not one of them.  I question the integrity of a company that tries to sell me a product  that will preserve the contents of my black water tank and a product that may clog my system.  Thetford sells products containing formaldehyde, which is an excellent preservative, to add to the BWT and they sell TP that dose not break down well that will likely clog the system. I have no desire or do I see the need to preserve the contents of a BWT nor do I see any need to use a product that may or may not clog the BWT system. 

I know that companies change their products from time to time but a company that markets products for RV/s should have run tests to determine it performance in the RV application before releasing it to the RVers.  When I tested Thetford several years ago it failed the TP test probably worse than anything I have subjected to the test.  That is not to say that 6 months later it wouldn't pass.  I suspect the inconsistency may be due to their getting their product from the lowest bidder and could care less on its performance.

Like I said before Thetford products are NOT welcome in our coach.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Smoky on December 19, 2005, 09:14:07 PM
I find myself completely agreeing with Wendy. 

The whole subject of overnight camping at WalMart is way overblown IMO.  Some people just seem compelled to campaign against overnight stays at WM.  When we are on the go, nothing beats a stay at a WM (for us anyway), where we don't have to hook up, check in, etc.  Plenty of good restaurants and nice retail stores nearby (not many campgrounds can say that) and just perfect for the family in transit.  Also top notch security and safety which I have not always found at campgrounds late at night.

One can pull put in the morning in seconds for the next leg of the long trip.  And I have never, in 3 years of RVing, ever seen abuse of WM overnight privileges.  Oh how I get tired of the anti WM crusade.  The camp ground owners have a great lobby going.   :D   I say this as someone who spend more than $4k a year at campgrounds.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on December 19, 2005, 10:03:46 PM
Quote
Some people just seem compelled to campaign against overnight stays at WM.

Smoky, I fully respect your WM perspective, gained from many nights in WM parking lots. Personally, I won't stay there for reasons/concerns I've quoted in prior discussions. But this should not be misinterpreted as an anti-WM campaign or crusade. (No, I didn't think you were referring specifically to me. But, since I had to weigh in with my "not for me" comment, I wanted to make sure folks don't inadvertently associate me with the anti-WM campaigns).

Folks have to make their own minds up, but that doesn't mean that my concerns aren't very real to me even if others think they're overblown.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Smoky on December 19, 2005, 10:09:50 PM
Aye Tom, I think we are in agreement as we both seem to be saying it is a personal choice whether or not to stop overnight at retail locations.  My overblown comment as you suspected is not aimed here but aimed at both the campground owners and the Internet in general.  I wish folks would just let the WM lovers go on loving WM unless, of course, they misbehave.   :D
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: BernieD on December 20, 2005, 07:15:56 AM

Like I said before Thetford products are NOT welcome in our coach.

Ron

I hope you have a Sealand toilet and Dometic refrigerator ;D
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Ron on December 20, 2005, 08:20:59 AM
Ron

I hope you have a Sealand toilet and Dometic refrigerator ;D
We do. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Lorna on December 20, 2005, 09:27:52 AM
Smoky, when we stayed in Tucson several years ago the Walmart near I 19 encouraged RV'ers to stay there for several weeks at a time and these people would get out their grills, chairs, awnings, etc. and someone even emptied their gray water on the parking lot and they had to close that part of the parking lot.  The next year there was no RV parking at that Walmart.  This was the winter after 911 and the campgrounds were not full, not even close.  We have stayed at a Walmart about 3 or 4 times in nine years and only over night.  We do not care to since we stop early in the afternoon and I prefer not to spend the afternoon in a parking lot.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on December 20, 2005, 09:38:39 AM
We do not care to since we stop early in the afternoon and I prefer not to spend the afternoon in a parking lot.

That's a good point Lorna and one I haven't seen mentioned in our prior discussions on this subject. I don't stay at WM for a different reason, but yours just got added to my list of "why not WM". Doesn't mean we don't shop at WM. OTOH I made a comment to Chris just yesterday that went something like "WalMart is going the way of KMart"; A number of WM stores I've been in over the last year or so look more like a big rummage sale. That and the apathy of staff contributed to a loss of customers for KMart.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: RREngr on December 20, 2005, 09:53:42 AM
Tom,  I had not been in a KMart in a very long time for the very reasons you stated, but saw a buy one, get one half off ad for toys in the newpaper.  With the granddaughter in mind, I thought why not check it out?  Drove to one in a neighboring town and was pleasantly surprised to find that the store had just been completely renovated and looked more like a Sears store. It was nice and clean, well organized. Guess the combining of their two companies is making a difference.  Just have to see if it lasts, or reverts back to the way it was.  Kay
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on December 20, 2005, 10:21:02 AM
Kay

Yes, KMart changed significantly after they nearly went belly up and brought in a new CEO to revive the company some years ago. At one time I seriously considered writing to their chairman offering my services to shake 'em up, but figured my lack of retail experience would be an issue. I just felt at that time that almost anyone could do a better job of running the company.

My "going the way of KMart" comment in my prior message was a reference to KMart in those prior times. As you correctly say, their stores look much better now and their staff appear to be motivated to care about their customers.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Wendy on December 21, 2005, 07:52:40 PM
Tom,

Your lack of retail experience might have been a benefit for KMart....certainly couldn't have hurt them ! The closest one to us is one of the most profitable KMarts in the country and it still looks like a second-hand store/dump. I wouldn't set foot in the place if I wasn't doing merchandising jobs there. The WalMarts, on the other hand, are neat and tidy with friendly, helpful employees. I know this varies in other parts of the country but that's the way it is here in the Four Corners. Just don't try to spend the night in the parking lot of the Cortez WalMart (but you can stay in the Farmington, New Mexico, parking lot).

Wendy
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on December 21, 2005, 07:57:25 PM
Hi Wendy,

Interesting how things vary across the country. I was in our nearest WM today and, by the time I left, wished I hadn't gone. OTOH I've been in WM stores that are well kept. I haven't yet figured out the common denominator between the "bad" ones.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: caltex on December 21, 2005, 09:50:04 PM
Tom, I'm guessing that you were in the WalMart on Hammer Lane. It's as real junky place. My experience is that the stores mirror the  neighborhoods, poor neighborhoods, poor stores.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on December 21, 2005, 10:38:21 PM
Robert, this was the Tracy store.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Smoky on December 22, 2005, 12:17:58 AM
Lorna:

Sorry you ran into that situation with improper camping at WM. 

In our first three years of Rving we have had only pleasant experiences at WM and everyone extremely well behaved.  One thing we like about staying overnight at WM is that we tend to meet the more serious full timers and longhaulers as opposed to the more predominant weekenders at CGs.  Nothing against weekenders, we were once among them.  But I don;t ever find them at WMS and it is fun to roam among some serious long haulers as an alternate experieince.  I have learned an awful lot from meeting people at WM in the evenings.

Just as an example, in Gillette Wyoming, on our way out here, we meet a man that made weekly runs back and forth between the mountains of West Virginia, and Idaho, carrying a rare breed of horse.  He owned ranches in both states and moved his stock back and forth in the most beautiful combo horse van / RV I have ever seen.  It was huge and the human living part of it was at least a 35 footer, and three horses in the additional van portion of it. 

He would do these runs in 72 hours.  I asked him why so fast, why not enjoy the roses along the way.  He laughed and explained he carried only enough feed for 72 hours and needed to empty the manure rack before it got too ripe.   :D  His living quarters were awesome.  Even the horse quarters were awesome.  He was a most interesting fellow and I would never have come across someone like him in a regular campground.

This is just one of many many examples of interesting people I have met on the "long haul" circuit.  These people are not bums but are very savvy travelers, and many of them are very well to do and successful.

We were aided in our happy landing here at El Mirage by another person we met in Ohio, who compared the merits of Tucson, Phoenix, and Yuma having spent many years at each location.

I might add there are also some very gorgeous WM locations.  I have watched sunrises at Ogden and sunsets at Laramie, and was overtaken by the scenic beauty in those places along with a number of other scenic WMs.

I feel no embarrassment or reason to excuse the fact that we find WMs great places to overnight in, especially when on the move.  I am very thankful that WM provides these convenient rest stops adjacent to the Interstates.  I love regular campgrounds too!   :D :D
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: John From Detroit on December 22, 2005, 08:31:34 AM
Tom, I'm guessing that you were in the WalMart on Hammer Lane. It's as real junky place. My experience is that the stores mirror the  neighborhoods, poor neighborhoods, poor stores.

Not just Wal-Mart.  I've seen many chain stores, grocery, hardware, and other where I"ve visited more than one store in the chain.

In most all cases you could tell what the inside of the store would look like by looking around the outside.

Graffitty on the walls, trash lying about, Junk cars parked along every street... Drive on

Clean and neat, well mowed lawns, prperly painted houses which appeared well maintained... Stop in

In fact, even the Service is different... My wife was complaining about a grocery store (Supermarket) where she was getting worse and worse servcie... I found her another store in the same chain...Of course it's in a better neighborhood... But she could not believe they were the same chain... Was for sure a different store.

Where as the "City" store was "What do you want?" (with attidute) the suburban store was "how can we help you?"
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: caltex on December 23, 2005, 10:05:42 PM

That blows my theory.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: DonTom on August 02, 2009, 10:09:45 PM
We once overnighted near a marina where I was "working" an event when our boat club brought 80 boats into the marina for the weekend (all paid their dues of course). At 2.00am I awoke to a loud rapping on the door of the coach and a bright light shining through the blinds. I knew this had to be the local police and decided to lay there quietly, pretending nobody was home. Right then Chris awoke yelling "someone's at the door".

Why should I care if the post I reply to is more than 120 days old?  Anyway, your recent post to the link here led me to this one.

I want to mention that once Tom & I parked for the night in the desert, down a dirt road, a good 100 miles west of Las Vegas (about 20 years ago in our 84 class B Chevy van). It was dark and we assumed we were far enough from the freeway. But was wrong, we could be seen from the interstate at first light (that's when I am always in my deepest sleep!)  Anyway, far from the interstate, at first light a cop banged on the door and woke us up. He wanted to know what we were doing there and he  checked our ID's and so on, because (he said) "many people have been murdered in Vegas lately and often bodies are dumped right around the area we were in."

Other than that little minor detail, I don't think there was any problem with us boondocking there. ;D

-Don- SF, CA

Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: DonTom on August 02, 2009, 10:19:32 PM
Oh no, I see another TP discussion starting  ;D

Anyone wishing to read about the infamous RV Forum Toilet paper test, developed by George Mullen, and its results click the Library button above, select the Miscellaneous category and click Toilet paper test results.

Whatever happened to George? I remember he was quite active when this forum was on Compuserve.

-Don- SF, CA
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on August 02, 2009, 10:27:48 PM
Quote from: DonTom2
Whatever happened to George?

George comes by occasionally, but not very often. He hasn't been a regular since we moved off CS.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Phil on August 02, 2009, 10:50:30 PM
Whatever happened to George? I remember he was quite active when this forum was on Compuserve.

George is still around.  I have lunch with him everytime I get to SD.

PhilB
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: DonTom on August 02, 2009, 10:54:58 PM
George is still around.  I have lunch with him everytime I get to SD.

PhilB

Great! Tell him we all miss him and to get back on line here! 

Besides, maybe he will have a new TP test for us. ;D

-Don- SF, CA
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: papahog on August 29, 2009, 12:39:50 AM
I like the Walmart Policies about overnight parking.  If I am traveling and just passing through, Wallmart it is.  If I am staying a while I like an RV park where I can hook up, put out my slide, take a shower and relax.  Ofter these times I stop early and stay late.  No hurry to get back on the road.

But if I am passing through.  I stop crawl in the front of the trailer and go to bed.  Sleep a few hours and hit the Road. 
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: jeverden on August 30, 2009, 01:30:30 PM
When we are travelling and have been driving about 6 hours and it is getting dark.  We usually will stop at a Walmart to sleep then leave first thing in the am.

It goes like this:  Stop at 7pm; close the curtains, enter Walmart, buy supplies (RV) Groceries, toys for the kids, magazines, movies, etc...  Eat at the McDonalds, etc...
Head back to the RV, kids watch a movie on the battery powered DVD player or the laptop, we relax and read a book or a magazine, etc...

Usually we have at this point spent well over $200.00  So NO, I do not feel guilty for staying there till the morning, when we enter once again and get breakfast.

In fact it would be more affordable going to a CG - NOT ABOUT SAVING MONEY, it is about convenience and having Walmart to fall back on instead of searching around for a place to park for 6-7 hours.
This is why Walmart allows this.  They make huge profits on RVers.

Usually when we are at a walmart there are only 2 -3 others doing the same.

Jason
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Ned on August 30, 2009, 04:07:57 PM
As a courtesy and also for your security, you should ask permission from the store manager to stay overnight and where they would prefer you park.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: LindaH on August 30, 2009, 05:49:09 PM
I guess I don't share that view Ron. Like WalMart or any other business, campgrounds need to make money to survive. Boycotting CGs in an area that has such an ordinance merely helps to drive CGs out of business and that can only hurt RVers. Why strongly support anything that can hurt RVers?
While I agree with you that campgrounds, like other businesses, need to make money, I'm with Ron when he says that he boycotts towns that have passed a "you can't park any place but in an RV park" ordinances at the behest of the RV parks...Billings, MT is a prime example a few years back.

Think about it this way:  What if all the restaurants in a town banned together and had a law passed that all RVers were prohibited from eating in their own rig, but had to, instead, eat at one of the restaurants in the area?  Outrageous, right?  Well, it's the same principal.

If RV parks would provide an area within their campground where people could come in an dry camp for a reasonable fee (certainly not more than $10, $5 would be better), they'd probably get a lot of "Wal Mart campers" to use their place. 

I agree that there are people who abuse the intent of overnight parking at Wal Mart, or other parking lots.  We've seen RVs with their jacks/levelers down, their awnings and slides out, toads or tow vehicles unhooked...and in some cases, nowhere in evidence.  Parking lots, ideally, should be used for those people who drive late into the evening and are gone first thing in the morning.

Having said all the above, we are not Wal-Mart overnighters...or any other parking lot, for that matter.  Mainly because we're usually off the road by 2 PM and who wants to spend the afternoon and early evening in a parking lot?  Certainly not us!  We also have a dog and a parking lot is a terrible place for walking a dog.  Finally, our fifth wheel has 3 slides and the downstairs is unuseable with the two big slides in. 

On the other hand, we rarely stay in RV parks, either.  There are lots of city/county/BLM/USFS/COE/NP and other places where we can park for free or for very little to be using expensive RV parks.  Tom, maybe you can afford to spend $25 and up per night for an RV park, but we came to the conclusion after our first year of fulltiming back in 1998, that if we continued to do that, we'd soon go broke and one of us would have to go back to work! ;)
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on August 30, 2009, 11:09:06 PM
LindaH, that was an old message you quoted/replied to. I don't even remember posting it, but our (my) views on camping at WM haven't changed in almost 25 years of RVing.

Quote
...I'm with Ron when he says that he boycotts towns that have passed a "you can't park any place but in an RV park" ...

I wouldn't have a clue where to find a list of such towns but, if I did, I might be more inclined to stay there.

Quote
What if all the restaurants in a town banned together and had a law passed that all RVers were prohibited from eating in their own rig, but had to, instead, eat at one of the restaurants in the area?

Hypothetical of course, and not the same thing. No town, city or state would/could pass such a law. Might as well try to pass a law that folks aren't allowed to breath while in their RV.

Quote
If RV parks would provide an area within their campground where people could come in an dry camp for a reasonable fee (certainly not more than $10, $5 would be better), they'd probably get a lot of "Wal Mart campers" to use their place.

I'd be supportive of such a move. RV parks might enjoy some additional business, but I doubt it would be from folks who are habitual WM campers. The rationale I hear from these folks has more to do with proximity to freeways/highways and easy access (no check in) than to saving money; I always hear/read that it costs them more to camp at WM because of the incremental money they spend in the store that they wouldn't have spent if they stayed in a regular campground.  
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Alaskansnowbirds on August 31, 2009, 12:15:22 AM
Quote
Hypothetical of course, and not the same thing. No town, city or state would/could pass such a law. Might as well try to pass a law that folks aren't allowed to breath while in their RV.

Lets put it in terms you might understand better.

They just passed a law that you can not spend the night on your boat anywhere on the delta except tied up at dock in a marina.   ;D
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on August 31, 2009, 12:30:20 AM
LOL Don, another hypothetical scenario.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Alaskansnowbirds on August 31, 2009, 01:19:10 AM
LOL Don, another hypothetical scenario.

Why is it hypothetical? They did it in Billings, MT and Clark County, NV. The only difference is the type of vehicle. Until they changed the law I couldn't even park at my sons house in Henderson. All it would take is all the marina owners to convince the county commissioners to pass the ordinance.

The campground owners in Clark County couldn't get the county commissioners to pass the ordnance so they went to the health department and convinced them that it was a health issue. After all we all know that any boats that aren't tied up to a dock is dumping their trash and pumping their sewage overboard. Which makes as much sense as saying that all RVs that park anywhere other than a campground dumps their tanks on the ground. We both know that's bull but that's what the campground owners convinced the Clark County Health Dept.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: LindaH on August 31, 2009, 10:03:57 AM
Hypothetical of course, and not the same thing. No town, city or state would/could pass such a law. Might as well try to pass a law that folks aren't allowed to breath while in their RV.
Of course it's hypothetical.  And of course no town would pass such a law. 

However, that's not the point.  The point I was trying to get across is that there is no difference between a bunch of restaurants getting together and trying to get their community to pass a law that RVers must use one of their establishments to eat at than there is for a bunch of RV parks to get together and get their community to pass a law that RVers must use one of THEIR establishments to spend the night.

It's also no different than Don's hypothetical case of marinas getting together and trying to get a law pass that boaters can't stay any place other than a marina.  And, frankly, I'm surprised they haven't tried!
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on August 31, 2009, 10:24:06 AM
Don,

I've previously reported that our county chose to "clarify the building code" to disallow the parking of RVs, boats, or (boat) trailers. The actual wording is that no more 80% may be visible from the street. I also reported that I received a ticket while away on a trip for a small boat trailer sitting in my side yard. More recently, I reported that we got a ticket stuck on our coach by the local Sheriff when it was parked in the street for approx 90 minutes; When I called the Sheriff's office to challenge it, I was told by the Desk Sergeant to be sure to move it after 72 hours, but it must be moved more than a foot.

Our local ordinances are a bit confusing; There's a sign as you enter our community that clearly says "on-street parking of RVs and trailers limited to 3 hours". There's a separate rule that gives us a 72 hour waiver for "loading and unloading". Then the county threw in the additional wrinkle.

These rules were not driven by campgrounds or marinas, and none of this has anything to do with why we don't camp at WalMart.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on August 31, 2009, 10:43:05 AM
Quote from: LindaH
The point I was trying to get across is ....

Understood your point, but the point in my original message (http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php/topic,2458.msg21165.html#msg21165) in this old topic was that I don't support a boycott of campgrounds in a town having a "no stay at WalMart" ordinance, as this could result in campgrounds going out of business and ultimately hurt RVers.

Quote
And, frankly, I'm surprised they haven't tried!

If local marinas were successful in such a move (highly unlikely), they wouldn't have the berths to accommodate the additional demand. Expanding wouldn't be an option in most cases, although a few clearly have that option if they're prepared to go through the permitting process.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: kevin on August 31, 2009, 10:59:15 AM
ya just gotta love it all, codes,rules,lawsuits and such. They tried, the city that is, one of those NO OVERNIGHT PARKING rules in our town once, after half a dozen wal-mart trucks got tickets sitting in a wal-mart parking lot, that rule, or LAW went away.

I gotta say my feelings on this are as follows. I drive until I get there or I'm too tired to carry on(I know that's not save) anyway, I will stop at a truck stop, or a wal-mart or a cg whatever is closest or eaisest to get to. I have no problem with the noise at the truckstops, and the lot lizard's don't  usually come around a MH. The wal-marts I park beside the trucks and stay outta the way,after talking to the manger first.

our last trip to florida, I tried to stay at cg's only which meant stoping earlier than I'm used to, and I gotta say some of these cg's are in need of upgrades, and just overall clean up. Either way ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Smoky on September 17, 2009, 09:42:43 PM
Tom:

Don's (Alaskan Snowbird) is NOT a hypothetical marine analogy.

In Annapolis Maryland, for example, the local communities now send boats out into the bay attempting to charge fees for anchoring.  Many similar examples are rampant all up and down the East coast inland waterways.  Boondocking on the water is becoming an endangered species.

I am sure you enjoy a peaceful night anchoring out.  I am also sure you enjoy marinas that offer luxury amenities.

Why not see the similarity with land yachts?

Wal-mart let's you anchor out with delightful security and convenience.  Boondocking at the Grand canyon eliminates the convenience and security, but allows awesome beauty.  Overnighting at a RV Resort provides wonderful amenities and luxury services.  The same choices offered a seagoing captain ought to be allowed to a land-going captain aye?

Smoky
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: seilerbird on September 17, 2009, 10:23:24 PM
I agree that there are people who abuse the intent of overnight parking at Wal Mart, or other parking lots.  We've seen RVs with their jacks/levelers down, their awnings and slides out, toads or tow vehicles unhooked...and in some cases, nowhere in evidence.  Parking lots, ideally, should be used for those people who drive late into the evening and are gone first thing in the morning.

I do not understand why you say people who put down their jacks, etc, are abusing the intent of overnight parking. What anyone does in a Walmart parking lot is between Walmart and the individual. Your opinion in the matter does not matter. Most Walmarts have security guards and if they don't object then why should you? Why is it you think you should decided what a business does with their parking lot?
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: seilerbird on September 17, 2009, 10:27:24 PM
You are a braver man than I Smoky. We once overnighted near a marina where I was "working" an event when our boat club brought 80 boats into the marina for the weekend (all paid their dues of course). At 2.00am I awoke to a loud rapping on the door of the coach and a bright light shining through the blinds. I knew this had to be the local police and decided to lay there quietly, pretending nobody was home. Right then Chris awoke yelling "someone's at the door".

Standing there half awake in my PJs, I tried explaining to the officer "we're with those boats over there", but he just said "move on, we don't allow RV camping here". At 2.30am we took a room in the Marriott at the marina and put the coach in their parking lot, with permission of course. This episode probably contributes to my reluctance to stay at places like WM.


I just don't understand your position, Tom. You illegally spent the night on the street in some town and got woke up in the middle of the night and were told to move because you were breaking the law. And for that reason you don't want to spend the night legally at a Walmart?
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on September 17, 2009, 10:42:09 PM
LOL Tom, I didn't  know it was illegal until I got woken up in the wee hours. My "position" is simply that the episode (happened back in the 80's) I described in that 4 year old message made me (permanently) gun shy.

I can't comment on the legality of camping at WalMart. I've seen signs at the entrance to WM parking lots saying "no overnight parking/camping", but folks here have argued that a city can't impose those kinds of restrictions on private property. I've reported several times on our conflicting local parking ordinances, and recently described a situation where our coach was ticketed for being in the street 90 minutes; I called the Sheriff's office, explained that I "legally" had 72 hours, and was told it was OK provided I moved more than a foot every 72 hours. I've also reported an incident where I was ticketed in my absence by a county enforcement officer for a boat trailer (sans boat) being in my side yard.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: seilerbird on September 17, 2009, 10:53:09 PM
By legally parking at Walmart I was only refering to the Walmarts that don't have the signs. If a city passes an ordinance that doesn't allow staying over night there then I don't stay there. I subscribe to overnightparking.com and check on the legality of spending the night there before I actually get there and I haven't had a problem since I subscribed.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on September 17, 2009, 11:00:30 PM
We all pays our money and takes our choices. We prefer to stay at campgrounds, even if it does seem illogical or irrational to others.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: DonTom on September 18, 2009, 11:23:16 PM
We all pays our money and takes our choices. We prefer to stay at campgrounds, even if it does seem illogical or irrational to others.

We just try to find a nice place for the doggies to run around. The worse campground we saw for doggies was the KOA in Calgary. It wouldn't be all that  bad if they didn't have a fence all the way around it.  We couldn't find anything in that area and wasted hours looking and gave up. So we went north to Red Deer and found a very nice rest area to boondock in that area that the doggies really enjoyed.

Here at the very crowded & loud  Devon RV Park, at least there's the Saskatchewan River right next to it where the doggies can run around off leash.

And there's wireless internet here that covers the entire rather large park. But my signal strength says "low". But it still works perfectly, just as if I didn't know.

We've never stayed at a Wal*Mart, but we have seen many rest areas that we prefer to campgrounds. Many up here have hiking trails (or sometimes unused dirt roads) starting at the rest area. Finding a place the doggies like is what's most important.

This RV park has wireless, so I don't have to use my expensive roaming 3G. But no TV cable here. I can live without that. Tommy has his Chinese DVD's to watch. I guess I can practice my Cantonese. But I think I should learn English better first. ;D

What does a Wal*Mart have to offer?  Even without the doggies, I don't think we would stay there unless there was nothing else for a hundred miles or so (unlikely).  We would take a shady rest stop (and there are many up here) any day over any Wal-Mart.

We didn't see much of Calgary, but we will spend a few days here in the Edmonton area and visit the famous mall and all that. We already got a rented car. They came to pick us up to get the car after the RV was hooked up. Very convenient.

BTW, coming into Canada, they only wanted to see our passports and ask a bunch of questions.  Questions  such as where we work or worked, if we have criminal records, ever had a DUI (both are a "no") own guns (we own many guns) and if any have EVER been inside this RV (no.)

Then the boarder guard asked, as usual, how Tom & I know each other (I was driving at the time, so they are asking me).

I made it easy for him. I said "we're a gay couple that's been together for 35 years".

And then he (the border guard)  just said "oh, okay" and let us go. All of this only took a few minutes.

But I know on the way back into the USA, the RV will get searched as usual and will take a good hour or so. The USA is a lot harder to return to than Canada is to get into. At least for two guys in a RV. And that was true even before 9-11-01. At least for us. We have yet to come back to the USA without a search of the RV and our records checked.

But at least we know what to expect, as we have been up in Canada many time before. Just not this part (Alberta). But we may enter the USA via Vancover. We are planning on going through Jasper National Park and from there all the way to Vancouver.

BTW, if you want good Hong Kong style food, do NOT go to Hong Kong.   Go to the Vancouver area. Seems all the good cooks from Hong Kong went to Vancouver. We're going to Vancouver just for the Dim Sum. ;D
Devon RV Park, Devon, AB (near SW Edmonton)
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on September 18, 2009, 11:43:34 PM
Don,

They must think you look like an unlikely couple  ???

I'm reminded of a time I and a colleague visited a number of Japanese companies. The colleague was a California guy, but he inherited his looks and size from his Japanese mother. Everywhere we went folks would speak to him in Japanese, but he didn't speak a word of it, and we'd have an embarrassing moment when our hosts realized their mistake. Part way through the trip, I decided to introduce him as my brother. Our hosts would look back and forth between us, seeing my European features and his Japanese features and diminutive size. I could see their confusion, before they realized I was joking, but it broke the ice and prevented further embarrassing moments.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: sheltie on September 19, 2009, 04:29:40 PM
Tom - MUCH earlier in this thread (2005) you made reference to checking out the library, misc, toilet paper test results.  That subject doesn't exist under misc.  Could it be that we as a race have evolved to the point that we don't need TP anymore?  In that case I'm sub-human.  Anyway, if it exists, where can it be located?
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Wendy on September 19, 2009, 05:13:40 PM
Tom - MUCH earlier in this thread (2005) you made reference to checking out the library, misc, toilet paper test results.  That subject doesn't exist under misc.  Could it be that we as a race have evolved to the point that we don't need TP anymore?  In that case I'm sub-human.  Anyway, if it exists, where can it be located?

It's under Waste Systems. Try this link (http://www.rvforum.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=113&Itemid=41).

Toilet paper is one of the Forum's favorite discussions  :D

Wendy
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on September 19, 2009, 06:32:18 PM
Quote from: sheltie
Could it be that we as a race have evolved to the point that we don't need TP anymore?  

LOL Denny, how I wish. Wendy gave you the correct link.

At that time, we probably didn't have anywhere "logical" to put that file, so I put it in 'miscellaneous'.

BTW a search would have found it for you. Meanwhile, I inserted the link in that earlier message.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: sheltie on September 19, 2009, 07:06:58 PM
Wendy - thanks for the link.  Incidentally, while I totally agree with Tom regarding WalMart and "camping", I also wonder how one could be comfortable using the WM in Cortez.  To my memory - frequently wrong, I admit - there didn't seem to be a lot of level areas where RVs would normally park.  I did shop at WM a lot during the month I was just outside Mesa Verde, though.  Certainly no one could use the excuse that there are no CGs near Cortez as there are quite a few of them, several right there in town.  What I miss most about Cortez is playing golf with the other geezers who come up from the hot SW at Conquistador.  Sure is a neat course with a friendly staff.

Tom - I did try a search first prior to my post and was unsuccessful.  My magic fingers didn't work this time.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Wendy on September 19, 2009, 07:17:20 PM
Denny, I'm a Wal-Mart "parker" as opposed to a "camper." We've stayed more than once in a Wal-Mart parking lot. As for Cortez, there are plenty of level spots. Most RVs park in the section closest to the highway. There are "No Overnight Parking" signs in the parking lot but the WM management says they don't care if people park overnight so the local cops don't enforce it unless WM calls to complain (which they don't). There are plenty of campgrounds in Cortez, in fact, they're the ones who got the "No Overnight Parking" signs posted at Wal-Mart (nowhere else in town, just Wal-Mart). Most of the people who stay in the WM parking lot are just passing through and only want a place to stop for the night. They don't want hookups or swimming pools or anything else, just a place to park and sleep, so they don't want to spend $30. When the NOP signs were first posted, many people just kept right on driving through Cortez without stopping to spend any money on anything. I'd rather people were allowed to stay at WM and spend money in our little town.

Too bad you're not here, we've got a coupon book with Buy One Get One Free golf at Conquistador....we don't golf so you'd be welcome to it.

Travel safe
Wendy
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on September 19, 2009, 07:22:35 PM
Quote from: sheltie
.. I did try a search first prior to my post and was unsuccessful.

Denny, the library has a separate Search button. The Search button above only works on forum messages, not in the library.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: sheltie on September 19, 2009, 07:50:39 PM
Tom - that's the one I used and was unseccessful.  But then, my wife says I'm not a very good snake hunter either.

Wendy - thanks for the offer, I wish I could take you up on it.  The WM debate is one that will never be settled to anyone's satisfaction until/unless they actually designate an area for RVers who want to overnight/rest/whatever.  An unofficial wink and a nod just doesn't get it.  I understand why some want to stay at WM, and in many cases it is certainly warranted.  However, I'm probably more radical than Tom in my thinking in that I think many people use it because they are too cheap.  It confounds me that people will spend in excess of $100K (in some cases WAY more) and yet be so cheap as to not be willing to pay $30 to stay overnight at a CG.  Those are the folks I don't understand.  Oh well, discussing it is similar to beating a dead horse, but it does keep me off the street and out of trouble (except on this forum)!
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: sheltie on September 19, 2009, 07:54:20 PM
Wendy - I forgot to ask in my last post ....  I spent the last four months in Olathe (I'm back home in Texas now) and am down to my last doz ears of Olathe Sweet sweet corn.  Is it still in City Market or is the season completely over?  There is no better corn in the world!!!
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on September 19, 2009, 08:13:22 PM
Quote from: sheltie
...I'm probably more radical than Tom in my thinking...

Denny, you need to be more specific; There's more than one Tom in this discussion.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Wendy on September 19, 2009, 08:17:24 PM
Denny - Sadly the Olathe has been done and gone for nearly two weeks now. If you're ever in this area the first weekend in August, you should hit the Olathe Sweet Corn Festival - all the corn you can eat, roasted or steamed, with or without butter. It is absolutely the best corn anywhere.

Wendy
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Ken & Sheila on September 19, 2009, 08:54:29 PM
>>I understand why some want to stay at WM, and in many cases it is certainly warranted.  However, I'm probably more radical than Tom in my thinking in that I think many people use it because they are too cheap.  It confounds me that people will spend in excess of $100K (in some cases WAY more) and yet be so cheap as to not be willing to pay $30 to stay overnight at a CG.  Those are the folks I don't understand. <<

Denny,

While I am not a Wall Mart "parker", I am a overnight boondocker at Truckstops (usually away from the trucks), Casinos, and other businesses that want my business and are willing to let me park overnight. Yes, I save money, but more important is the convenience. Campgrounds are often far off the road we traveling, the offices are often closed by the time we get off the road - usually around 7pm and aren't open when I want to leave, 6 or 7am.

My only concern usually is security. Here I reply first on my gut feel and second by seeing if there are other RVs stopped.

ken


Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Wendy on September 19, 2009, 09:05:31 PM
If I need/want hookups, I stay in a campground and pay the going rate. However, if I have no need or desire for hookups, I see no reason to pay $30 or more for things I don't want. And, yes, I am cheap, but by saving money on our overnight expenses, we're able to travel more. The $30 I don't drop at a campground will buy me 10 gallons of gas.

Wendy
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Ned on September 19, 2009, 10:05:28 PM
We did find a campground in Rawlins, WY, that offers long, level, pull through sites with electric only, perfect for a one night stop.  Unfortunately, it was $22 even with the GS discount :(
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: rsalhus on September 19, 2009, 11:14:51 PM
Quote
However, I'm probably more radical than Tom in my thinking in that I think many people use it because they are too cheap.  It confounds me that people will spend in excess of $100K (in some cases WAY more) and yet be so cheap as to not be willing to pay $30 to stay overnight at a CG.

Did you ever consider for a minute that the reason those folks could afford to spend in excess of $100k (and WAY more) for their rig was because they were thrifty?
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Jeff on September 20, 2009, 09:47:36 AM
We did find a campground in Rawlins, WY, that offers long, level, pull through sites with electric only, perfect for a one night stop.  Unfortunately, it was $22 even with the GS discount :(

Ned:

Come out to New England! $22.00 would be a real bargain. We have been paying 26/30 for W/E, up to 40 for FHU.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Gary RV_Wizard on September 20, 2009, 09:55:01 AM
Quote
We have been paying 26/30 for W/E, up to 40 for FHU.

You've been staying in the cheap places in New England, Jeff! Many are even more than that.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Ned on September 20, 2009, 09:56:15 AM
No thanks, Jeff, been there and done that.  In the past week we've paid $51 and $46/night for full hookup, but our average for the year is still <$13.  What is surprising is how full the campgrounds are at this time of year.  Usually they're quite empty after Labor Day.

And too many trees east of the Mississippi :)
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: seilerbird on September 20, 2009, 10:23:32 AM
Denny, you need to be more specific; There's more than one Tom in this discussion.

It must be me, I'm not radical in my thinking. Oh wait, I don't think. :o
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Just Lou on September 20, 2009, 11:32:41 AM
".... our average for the year is still <$13.  

Ned, is this the average for all nights this year, or just those nights on the road?
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: sheltie on September 20, 2009, 12:05:42 PM
Denny - Sadly the Olathe has been done and gone for nearly two weeks now. If you're ever in this area the first weekend in August, you should hit the Olathe Sweet Corn Festival - all the corn you can eat, roasted or steamed, with or without butter. It is absolutely the best corn anywhere.

Wendy

I stayed in Olathe for four months this year and managed to hold down my corn intake at the Fest to a mere nine ears!
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: sheltie on September 20, 2009, 12:07:25 PM
Denny, you need to be more specific; There's more than one Tom in this discussion.

You are the Tom to whom I was referring. 
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Ned on September 20, 2009, 12:15:12 PM
Lou, all nights.  Our average for 12+ years is just under $14.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Just Lou on September 20, 2009, 12:32:53 PM
Lou, all nights.  Our average for 12+ years is just under $14.

Just curious how you account for the nights at the Texas lot?
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Ned on September 20, 2009, 12:49:33 PM
Same way you would account for WalMart parking :)
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Just Lou on September 20, 2009, 01:20:22 PM
Same way you would account for WalMart parking :)

Not quite the same, (I don't have a deed or a mortgage on a Wal-Mart parking lot. :D) but I get your point.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: BernieD on September 21, 2009, 10:28:24 AM
Ned, is this the average for all nights this year, or just those nights on the road?

Lou

I'm not sure what this can demonstrate, but since we bought our first motorhome in 1998, we've "camped" 1,968 days at an average cost of $17.40. We seldom use Wal-Mart, which was included :D and we don't own a lot to park on for "free". Thank you Rolling Stock for the statistics. One interesting number is that the summer of 2009 was our lowest average for the last 5 years, $18.34 vs. a high of $26.99 in 2005. Probably didn't stay at any Wal-Marts that summer  ;D
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: FrontrangeRVer on September 21, 2009, 10:55:56 AM
Well, if I might step in here with the RVForum oldtimers.... ;)

We have a new Walmart here in Woodland Park, CO, and they put up "NO Camping" signs in the parking lot of it, and in our opinion, we are very glad.  The closest Walmart in Colorado Springs looks trashy because of their allowing RV's....just our opinion.  

If I were Walmart, I would just ban any overnight camping at all their stores, and be done with this......

I hear the "Walmart Campers" say "I spend money there", and apparently they think they now have the right to squat on the property....I contend once Walmart does away with the RV overnight parking, their revenue won't go down any.   ;)
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Just Lou on September 21, 2009, 11:11:50 AM
Bernie, your data is probably more applicable to my (and the average non-full timers) situation than is Ned's. 

For my purposes, I would only calculate costs for nights away from my residence.  The only other factor I can think of that may cloud the issue would be storage fees when not on the road.  Folks like myself, who can park on their own property, have a small advantage.  However, unlike Ned, I can't legally live in mine while parked at home.

A thought (might have been a brain fart) just occurred to me.  If I didn't have this RV to park, I probably wouldn't need this property. :D

OR, put another way, if I didn't have this property to look after, I wouldn't have to park the RV ???
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Wendy on September 21, 2009, 11:31:16 AM
If you really want to muddy the waters, we averaged $3.84 per night last winter. We do a lot of boondocking and also have half-off and free camping at a number of places.

Wendy
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Mc2guy on September 21, 2009, 01:24:46 PM

If I were Walmart, I would just ban any overnight camping at all their stores, and be done with this......


Wal*Mart does indeed make money on RVers and as such, will not institute a ban as a corporate policy.  You are talking about a company that squeezes every single penny out of their suppliers, employees, service providers, and distribution operations in order to maximize their profit margins.  If they believed they could make more money by not allowing RV parking, trust me, they wouldn't allow it.

In Virginia, most retail stores are located in retail development complexes that include more than just the Walmart.  As such, most of the time Walmart doesn't own the property or have any sway (other than through political pressure) on the parking regulations.  In most of these situations, overnight parking is not allowed.  I have never stayed at a Walmart overnight, but respect their business decision to allow it.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Just Lou on September 21, 2009, 01:59:38 PM
I'm with Mark on this one ;) 

Who wants to git the family all dressed up, git 'um loaded in the truck, git on over to that "New Wal-Mart" only to have to park in the same lot with a Monaco Diplomat trashin' the place up?
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: carson on September 21, 2009, 02:28:10 PM
I shop at Walmart, maybe once every 3 months. Have never stayed in their parking lots, why? We have 2 big ones in a 10 mile area from my home. The few things we need while traveling are minimal.. we prepare. (Unless you are a full-timer..most are not.)

   Just to save a few bucks not parking in an RV park? I love to give RV parks my money so that the can stay in business...

  We all need RV parks all over the country, good or bad, so why cut their knees off?

  I guess I am of the old school. Live and let live.

I support the RV parks..they are hard working folks trying to stay alive. Folks who want to save buck, maybe buy a hamburger instead of those $12.00 steaks on your BBQ.

  Believe me, I am a free entrepreneur. (Enterpriser).

Guess I had better quit before I get into trouble.

carson FL
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: 1joester2 on September 21, 2009, 03:29:16 PM
As has already been stated, when traveling late and leaving early, there is no reasonable sense to paying a 24 hour rate for full amenities at a CG. If CG's offered an adjusted rate for travelers arriving late, boodocking with no amenities, and leaving early, I would not hesitate to use CG"s.

We Nornally try to find a national or state park, but if we are between places we've chosen as destinations, I see no harm in staying at WM for a few overnight hours. I always ask, I always park where they ask me to, and I evaluate the section of town the WM is in. If my gut says "NO", then I keep moving.

My only bad experiences have been with lot sweepers, weather, and on one occasion several cars drag racing accross the lot at 3 AM (we were in a corner, so it was just the sounds we had to deal with).

To each his/her own. We all have our reasons.

My family's particular style of RV'ing does not include hitting the road at 9 AM, stopping at 5 PM, and use of shore amenities overnight. Perhaps if we were full timers, we would probably do just that. We also do not use CG's as destinations unless we are planning to spend time in that region or area. More often than not, we travel more than camp. In fact, I can only name one occasion where we camped in the same CG more than 2 days. It was an RV resort in VA, right after purchasing our RV.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: DonTom on September 21, 2009, 11:25:30 PM
I thought I would never stay overnight at a Wal-Mart, but that's where we are right now. The Wal-Mart here in Hinton,AB has a sign that says "RV'ers welcome to stay one night". And there's a large field for the doggies to run around right at the RV area, which is, of course, on the far end of the parking lot.


-Don- Boondocked at Wal*Mart,  Hinton, AB
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: RLSharp on September 22, 2009, 12:14:40 PM
I thought I would never stay overnight at a Wal-Mart, but that's where we are right now. The Wal-Mart here in Hinton,AB has a sign that says "RV'ers welcome to stay one night". And there's a large field for the doggies to run around right at the RV area, which is, of course, on the far end of the parking lot.


-Don- Boondocked at Wal*Mart,  Hinton, AB

Perhaps Tom (not your Tom) should bookmark that Wal-Mart.  ;D  :D
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on September 22, 2009, 12:37:37 PM
Quote from: RLSharp
Perhaps Tom ... should bookmark that Wal-Mart.

Richard, this Tom doesn't camp at WalMart. I prefer to stay at a campground, even if it's over the fence from WM and there's a hole in the fence. See attached picture; I call it my "WM next door" picture  ;D
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: RLSharp on September 22, 2009, 12:42:13 PM
Richard, this Tom doesn't camp at WalMart. I prefer to stay at a campground,...

But Tom, this Wal-Mart has a sign specifically inviting RVers to park for one night. That should be tempting--even to you.  :)  ;)
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: DonTom on September 23, 2009, 01:12:32 AM
Richard, this Tom doesn't camp at WalMart. I prefer to stay at a campground, even if it's over the fence from WM and there's a hole in the fence. See attached picture; I call it my "WM next door" picture  ;D

We will stay anyplace that we can, boondock or not, that the doggies like. The doggies like this place and there's wireless internet too.  It's the only game in town. A RV park.

There's a large empty  rest stop about a mile from here that has signs posted all over it "no overnight parking". We wonder why. ;D  The doggies would have liked that place just as much. But at least here in this RV park, we have electricity, water and wireless internet.

BTW, if you wanna see some bad roads, try TC1 just past the AB-BC border. We have been on smoother dirt roads. And the trucks ignore the lower speed limits.

At least they are working on parts of it.

-Don- in Golden, BC, Canada
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Epicman on December 21, 2009, 04:38:31 PM
Most Walmarts are not built in upscale neighborhoods.
Walmart parking lot security are above min. wage employees who are told to specifically not to get involved in a conflict , just as a cashier is not to chase a robber out the door. They just report a problem if they see it..
WM parking lot cameras are usually not monitored, they just record for use in prosecution.
A large number of WMs are built on land leased in a shopping center development, where the developer is responsible for parking lot maintenance and repair.
The parking areas are not built to the same specifications (weight holding) as the entrance, exit, and loading dock areas. Trucks must enter and unload in specific areas.
Very few WM lots have an area designated for RV or truck parking, ( striped with adequate access like Cracker Barrel and  Flying J ) which could be taken as invite to stay overnight.
No overnight parking signs can be posted buy the shopping center developer to save the lot (can't tell if jacks will damage the lot until after they are down and asphalt is dimpled or cracked or is the lot going to hold that 35000# DP before you drive on it) or can be required by zoning regulations, or be a requirement for site approval to please the neighbors. They also might be recommended by local police to alleviate a problem or not let one start. The municipality may have a tax or fee on hotel, motel, and/or campground nights occupied as a way to generate revenue. ( especially in resort areas )

Nowhere have I stated not to use WM lots for whatever you want to call it, but it's time to stop assuming a  WM lot is a safe haven to overnight and blaming the local CG owner because you can't overnight on someone else's  personal property.
 
Remember WM works on 2.5 / 3.5 % net profit margin so for that hundred you just spent they made $3

Kathy &  George
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Ken & Sheila on December 21, 2009, 07:32:04 PM

Remember WM works on 2.5 / 3.5 % net profit margin so for that hundred you just spent they made $3

Kathy &  George

You correctly state this is "net" profit. Gross Profit is much higher (20-30%, I haven't looked at a Walmart statement to know). Gross profit is what covers the store operating costs and profit.

So that $ 100 is providing $20 (?) to cover expense and profit.

Anyway, I don't shop Walmart and therefore I don't feel it would be right for me to stay at one.

ken
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: bigskymt on December 21, 2009, 09:54:31 PM
 I hesitated for several weeks to post this mostly fearing it might  be deemed irreleavant or challenging its authenticity. If Forum Staffers allow or consider it important I will disclose the location which will of course ID the Walmart.
  Several weeks ago a couple decided to spend the night at the local Walmart in S.CA..
  Picking their spot they parked and set up their coach. While in the process they observed an "older Class C" parking next to them presumably for the same reason.
  They eventually disconnected their toad and left their coach for several hours.
  Upon returning they noticed their "neighbor" was gone. The next morning they noticed their Gen. would not keep running nor would the M/H. They eventually discovered they were out of gas, or as they described "sucked dry after refilling 20 miles ago." and "that guy must of had extra gas cans 'cause his 'old class C' couldn't hold that much gas".
  IMO it should have ended there, they realize their lack of good judgement, buy a gas can from the Walmart Campground Store, drive the toad to the local gas station and learn from their mistakes.
 Unfortunately NO!! A friend and Walmart employee on duty at the time watched as they complained to the store manager about "lax security that allowed them to be ripped off" and "What is Walmart going to do to compensate us for our loss?"
 Personally, we treasure anyone that allows us to park on their property overnight.
 Noting the posts that described Walmart locations as being not built in upscale locations this is the exception.
  I hope other members will weigh in on the convenience of Walmarts, Sams, Costcos, Home Depots etc. camping and the need for common sense.
  Thanks   
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: DonTom on December 22, 2009, 05:12:15 AM
Quote
They eventually disconnected their toad and left their coach for several hours.

That Wal*Mart we stayed at overnight at Hinton, AB, Canada with the "RV'ers welcome one night"  sign (see a few messages back in this thread) only had one rule:

"No disconnecting  of toads allowed."

-Don- SF, CA

Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: RedT on December 22, 2009, 07:27:43 AM
I guess much depends upon the type of "RVing" a person does. For us, we seldom drive over 300 miles per day while traveling, preferring to enjoy the late afternoon/evening relaxing after a day's travel. Though we have used a Wal-Mart in the past for over-nighting, we were quite uncomfortable, felt like we were "squatting" on someone else's property, and just did not enjoy the experience.

So, for us, we enjoy shopping at Wal-Mart while traveling because the quality and price of food seems to be near the same regardless of location but for over-nighting, we prefer a campground. Just my $0.02.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: CeeBeeEll on December 22, 2009, 02:43:19 PM
I guess much depends upon the type of "RVing" a person does. For us, we seldom drive over 300 miles per day while traveling

And as someone else said, "to each his own", which is what makes RVing so much fun.  Since I still work (not retired yet), I have limited vacation time, and try to make the most of it.  Of course, we could stick to destinations within a few miles of home, but that's not our style either.   When I take a week off from work, we will usually hit the road Friday after work around 5:00PM, and try to get at least 5 or 6 hours down the road.  And our in-transit days many times go 10-12 hours or sometimes even longer.  (believe it or not, I really enjoy highway driving.)    It is rare that I can find an appropriate campground that is easy to get into that time of night. 

The last time we tried getting into a campground at midnight it was a real nightmare.  We were on I-40 just east of Memphis TN.  The campground directory had an ad for a place that was "easy off/on" from I-40.  Not So!  After leaving the interstate and going down a very narrow local road for 2 or 3 miles, we turned into a mobile home subdivision.  We finally found the RV Park part of the subdivision.  Of course the office was locked up tight, but there was a sign telling us to pick a spot.  We found the very last available site, next to the mobile home park, and not a pull through...but since it was at the end of the street we choose not to unhook (which we don't normally do on overnighters anyway).  We also didn't even hook up the utilities in interest of time.   Next morning at about 7:30, we pulled out, back past the office which was still closed.  Since honesty is the best policy, I went to the "Self Registration"  window, left my $40, and got back on the road.   

Since then, we have chosen to pull into a Walmart or other business that is known to allow overnight parking.  It gives us so much more flexibility in our travel schedule.  We always ask permission, we always make sure it is legal, and we don't put out awnings, jacks, or unhook the toad.  And IF we can park on the side of the lot we MAY put out the bedroom slide, but not always.

Anyway, thats my story along with my 2cents worth.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: kevin on December 22, 2009, 03:07:06 PM
If you were headed west thru memphis, too bad you couldn't have made it over to Tom Sawyer rv park on the Mighty Missip!! I love how some rv park owners describe their location though, easy on and off, Big rigs welcome..

We called one on our way to Panama City, in Belixi Miss? well after driving down on the beach(front street), then into a residentaly neighborhood, we found it. was very nice,but NO room, had to unhook just to get into the place,(the had a two lane driveway for this) and as far as pull thru, big rig friendly. lets just say, I had my front, and back hanging out. ;)
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: glen54737 on December 22, 2009, 05:44:24 PM
I've been to some that have marked spaces usually near their fuel.

Usually we stop for the store anyways and stay for a while. I've had problems with CG late at night too one had a white board with open spaces listed and an envelope for the money. But the space that was listed wasn't open and the only one that was wasn't listed and was way off level. so i will either stop when they are open or stay in flying j or walmart parking lots.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: kevin on December 23, 2009, 08:57:07 AM
I feel bad if I pull into a cg late at night, the lights, the noise of the airbags going down, the gen running. It just seems that everytime we come in late, there is absolutely no one up or no noise, except us.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Mastermtn on December 23, 2009, 10:36:02 AM
I feel bad if I pull into a cg late at night, the lights, the noise of the airbags going down, the gen running. It just seems that everytime we come in late, there is absolutely no one up or no noise, except us.

Does not wal-mart allow overnighter's to increase their business? If so, viva capitalists!
The WM's that do not are increasing we see..and in cities we found that do not even have
a CG..we were very warmly welcomed at the Bishop,CA Wal-mart at 10PM when I am sure
we would have woken folks up at the CG down the road..so all-in-all it seems the WM policy
is very nice...and shame on those that try to stay 2-3 days and make the WM upset and
rethink their policy...

BTW- we felt very safe in the parking lot there...

Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: jeverden on January 17, 2010, 01:51:20 PM
Walmart sells RHINO hoses and supplies...

Jay
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Mastermtn on January 17, 2010, 10:30:57 PM
Does not wal-mart allow overnighter's to increase their business? If so, viva capitalists!
The WM's that do not are increasing we see..and in cities we found that do not even have
a CG..we were very warmly welcomed at the Bishop,CA Wal-mart at 10PM when I am sure
we would have woken folks up at the CG down the road..so all-in-all it seems the WM policy
is very nice...and shame on those that try to stay 2-3 days and make the WM upset and
rethink their policy...

BTW- we felt very safe in the parking lot there...

Ditto on the Bishop, CA walmart...very nice folks....welcomed us...but we went down the road past
the golf course for the FH park to...ahhh....recharge our batteries...

R
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Britmick on April 16, 2010, 02:13:28 PM
God Bless Walmart!

Mick the atheist!
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Gottasmilealot on April 16, 2010, 04:48:19 PM
I have no reason to pay for a campground stay while travelling if I have a fully functional self contained RV which costs me a bunch of money specifically for that purpose.  If I was going to pay, I'd take my car and use hotels. Seems silly to me to pay just to park, wake up after a nap and hit the road again. I just don't need the amenities or facilities of a campground.  I appreciate a business that accommodates RV'rs, and reward them with my business, whether it's a restaurant for a meal, refueling, or a Walmart where I can restock food and other supplies.  Walmart isn't a campground, and doesn't pretend to be.  They let you stay and rest and hope you'll spend a little money while you're there.  It's a win-win situation. If you're staying for a few days, I don't know anyone that really wants to do that in any parking lot. If a lot is posted, I just don't stay there; there are plenty of others.  I don't care to question local ordinances or property owner rights. Life is too short.

I've never had a problem with stopping while travelling, but I have had problems with campgrounds and their rules, like being told to stop playing an acoustic guitar at a campground at 10 pm when it can't be heard 30 feet away while screaming kids are allowed to run around after midnight and dogs bark in campsites to the orchestra of generators all night.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: John From Detroit on April 17, 2010, 10:00:10 AM
Well.. Wall mart is ok for a night.. But if I want to stay a week.. I'd rather have hookups.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: bigdad72 on May 18, 2010, 08:53:22 AM
Nothing that hasn't been said already..... I love stopping @ Wal-Marts for quick overnights.  I prefer KOA's for my wife & kids when we stop for 2 or more nights.  I commend Wal-Mart on their "open lot" policy.  I think it makes great business sense.  I've gone into Super Wal-Marts @ 6:00 am to get some muffins for breakfast and walked out with boots/shoes, cd's, dvd's, tools, grill, (& muffins).   I've probably spent $500.00 on muffin runs over the last 2 years.  Thank you Wal-Mart for giving RV'rs a nice place to park.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: BernieD on May 18, 2010, 09:01:41 AM
I still think that Walmart and Elks Club lots are the most expensive campgrounds you can stay at ;D ;D
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Gary RV_Wizard on May 18, 2010, 09:49:25 AM
Casino parking lots  can be expensive too!
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: seilerbird on May 18, 2010, 09:55:52 AM
Casino parking lots  can be expensive too!

I have spent a lot of time in casino parking lots and I never spend a dime gambling. I have lived in both Reno and Las Vegas and you can't live there and gamble. It doesn't work at all. Besides that my mother was addicted to gambling so I have seen the ugly side and it holds no attraction for me.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Flyboy on May 20, 2010, 08:59:27 PM
I am going to get flamed for this post, but I have a fire retardant suit so go ahead.

I have read five pages of comments. Somehow TP got thrown into the fray. I really don’t care about anyone’s toilet paper preferences when the original post had to do with Wal-Mart camping. Can we stick to point?

Unless you always pay the asking price or are a first adopter, then everyone is a proponent of free enterprise. If you have ever shopped for a “bargain” then you don’t have a legitimate concern about someone else choosing to stay in a parking lot instead of a campground. If anyone has used a senior discount, a magazine or newspaper coupon, or taken any freebie then they have absolutely no credibility in standing against those who would participate in the free enterprise system of parking at Wal-Mart. So let it go.

And, since I am a proponent of free enterprise without government intervention, I say that campgrounds don’t deserve any special preferences over Wally-World or any other facility. There are enough of the trazone’s out there who will “drop the 20 or so bucks per night on a campground” to keep the CG in business. He/she is entitled to do so without our questioning the decision.

Frankly, I’m sick of this Wal-Mart subject. Opinions are like rear ends. Express too much of the first and you start to look like the second. Me included.

Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: RLSharp on May 20, 2010, 09:11:11 PM
Frankly, I’m sick of this Wal-Mart subject. Opinions are like rear ends. Express too much of the first and you start to look like the second. Me included.

I guess I am puzzled as to how you can be sick of this subject when there have only been seven postings since you signed onto the forum on March 09, 2010. No one forced you to go back and read the previous 137 postings nor the seven since you joined.

Richard
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Tom on May 20, 2010, 09:19:35 PM
Richard,

He's a fast reader  ;D
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: Mc2guy on May 21, 2010, 08:46:57 AM
Me included.

Yup.
Title: Re: WalMart campground?
Post by: bigskymt on May 21, 2010, 10:29:53 PM
I am going to get flamed for this post, but I have a fire retardant suit so go ahead.

Frankly, I’m sick of this Wal-Mart subject. Opinions are like rear ends. Express too much of the first and you start to look like the second. Me included.


So when are you going to unwrap that gift you speak of?