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Author Topic: Ford 460 - Vapor lock problem???  (Read 10574 times)

rgnprof

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Ford 460 - Vapor lock problem???
« on: March 17, 2011, 04:58:31 PM »
Well, back at it again!  Truly, if it's not one thing...

I am stuck in Woodward, OK.  My coach ran PERFECT for 150 miles and then as I slowed down to enter Woodward, it just died on me.  I was able to get it off the road, where I let it set for about 10 minutes.  Had my wife hit the key on and off several times and fuel pump is powering up just fine.  After about 10 minutes, started it up and drove for another couple of miles and it did the same thing in downtown Woodward - just dies.

This happened before after my accident as I was driving the coach back in to OKC in August - but it was very hot then - close to 100.  Today, it is hot - mid 80's - but not that hot. 

I seem to have read somewhere that this is a common Ford problem with fuel pump vapor lock.  Is this a fump pump issue, or is it a problem somewhere along the fuel rail??

Any help? Advice?  I'm just hoping I can get it started here in a few and make it to the campground.

ryan


Molaker

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Re: Ford 460 - Vapor lock problem???
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2011, 05:36:22 PM »
Might try some HEET added to the tank to see if there is some moisture in the gas causing icing.  Another thing I've seen is junk in the gas tank floating around and blocking the fuel line.  A friend of mine found an old sock is his tank that caused much the same symptom.
Tom & Joyce and Ditto the "don't tell her she's a dog" Westie
U.S. Navy (Ret)
2014 Winnebago ERA 24' class B

Gary RV Roamer

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Re: Ford 460 - Vapor lock problem???
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2011, 06:03:15 PM »
What year Ford 460? Carbureted? Injected?

Could be a weak fuel pump too.
Gary
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Gary Brinck
2004 American Tradition
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Homebase: Ocala National Forest, FL

donn

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Re: Ford 460 - Vapor lock problem???
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2011, 06:24:57 PM »
have your fuel pump pressure checked.  Sounds like one of two things.  Either the fuel is boiling in the lines on top of the motor or low pressure.

NY_Dutch

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Re: Ford 460 - Vapor lock problem???
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2011, 06:43:31 PM »
The fuel filter is also a possibility wirth checking out, but depending on the year, the fuel pump is a better bet.
Dutch
2001 GBM Landau 34' Class A
F53 Chassis, Triton V10, TST TPMS
2011 Toyota RAV4 4WD/Remco pump
ReadyBrute Elite tow bar/Blue Ox base plate

Iceman567

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Re: Ford 460 - Vapor lock problem???
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2011, 09:33:52 PM »
We had a '96 Gulfstream 'C' with a 460. This would always happen in the spring after we took the MH out of storage. In the fall before putting it a way, we always filled up the tank. 10% ethanol in the fuel. After we burned up the first tank of fuel, never had the problem. Check the fuel filter also.
2014 Itasca Viva 23B

rgnprof

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Re: Ford 460 - Vapor lock problem???
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2011, 09:39:18 PM »
Thank you for the replies.  We made it to the campground w/o further incident.  I waited about 20 minutes and then restarted the coach and drove about 1/2 mile and stopped and filled up.  I filled up in OKC with 10% ethanol, this fill-up was ethanol free.  I was a little above 1/2 tank.  From there, no problems. 

The 460 is a 1993, fuel injected - and I know that vapor lock isn't as likely in a FI motor...but that is exactly what it sounds like is happening.  I changed the fuel filter last Aug/Sept so I don't think that is it.  In all my reading over the past couple of months, I would swear that I have read more than one account of this type of problem with these particular Fords...

A friend mentioned installing an 'auxiliary pump', somewhere along the fuel rail.

ryan
« Last Edit: March 17, 2011, 10:00:05 PM by rgnprof »

NY_Dutch

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Re: Ford 460 - Vapor lock problem???
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2011, 10:38:52 PM »
Yep, that sounds like the typical fuel pump failure mode for that era F-53. As the fuel level goes down, the pump runs hotter until it quits. After it cools, it's good to go again for a little while. Filling the tank lets it run cool enough to keep going longer. Ethanol or straight gas doesn't matter. Some folks have had good results adding a high pressure aftermarket pump in the fuel line. It's certainly easier than dropping the tank anyway. Others have cut an access panel through the coach floor over the pump location in the tank, so they could change the pump from inside.
Dutch
2001 GBM Landau 34' Class A
F53 Chassis, Triton V10, TST TPMS
2011 Toyota RAV4 4WD/Remco pump
ReadyBrute Elite tow bar/Blue Ox base plate

fleamarketeer

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Re: Ford 460 - Vapor lock problem???
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2011, 04:55:23 AM »
Ryan,

I read about quite a few similar problems with the 460's before I bought mine (a class C with '90 chassis).  The previous owner said he did have the problem in hot weather after a "few" hours.  He changed the fuel filter, the pump in fuel tank, and that gray box on/near the distributor (sorry, don't recall the name and the "old" one is under the freshly made bed).  These  solutions didn't work for him but they are the ones usually suggested.

There are quite a few threads on nearly every rv forum about the problem- also the same symptoms with some big Chevy V-8's.  But since it is intermittent, a reader can't tell if the original poster's problem was ever really solved.  The OP's don't come back and say that it no longer dies under very hot conditions.  Some threads die in the fall with the heat.  If posters didn't get a satisfactory answer the first time they asked, they might not come back and try again.

Any solution might work for a while.  One or another might be relatively permanent in your vehicle.  I'll be watching and hoping for some new ideas.  Until then I'll plan on trips under 2 hours (my goal is less than a hour between markets).

Oh, the ethanol connection is new to me.  I don't know how much I can limit fuels containing alcohol, but it's worth a shot.

Thanks for bringing this up again.

fleamarketeer

rgnprof

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Re: Ford 460 - Vapor lock problem???
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2011, 09:10:45 AM »
Again, thank you for your replies.  I seemed to have narrowed down the problem - from doing some research here and elsewhere on the web - that I am looking at one of 4 problem areas.  It appears that Ford had a recall from 1990-93 on fuel pumps and fuel pressure regulators so it looks like :

1) Replace the fuel pressure regulator.  If it doesn't work right, then fuel doesn't get returned to the tank and it will boil and the injectors won't run on vapors.

2) Replace the fuel pump - as has been mentioned several times.  I will try and check the fuel pressure when I get home.

3) Replace the ignition control module, located on the distributor.  It gets hot and blinks out and then starts working again after it cools down-usually 20 mins or so.

4) Insulate the fuel lines, especially the one close to any heat source, ie exhaust manifolds, etc.

I think diagnosing this will be difficult - since the problem is intermittent.  It only occurs after driving for an extended period of time and only upon slowing down - the coach just shuts off - dash lights come on - no power.  Maybe an ignition problem as the module goes haywire under extreme heat - but if that's the case, then why wouldn't it shut off under load at highway speeds??

Save for the fuel pump, none of these R&R's appears that difficult, and parts are not that expensive.  But, there are numerous manufacturers of fuel pumps - any advice?  I thought about cutting an access panel in the floor, but am a little anxious about cutting a hole in my floor!  I looked underneath and I have pretty decent clearance from the top of the tank to the underside of the coach, but not enough to pull the pump up and out of the tank.  I do think that I can just get by with lowering the tank, but basically leaving it in place - anyone confirm this? 

ryan


billwild

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Re: Ford 460 - Vapor lock problem???
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2011, 03:53:38 PM »
Like Donn mentioned earlier above, you could wrap your fuel line in tin foil  where it is near the top of our motor. This is an old remedy they say helps with vapor lock. A cheap fix perhaps.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2011, 03:55:11 PM by billwild »
2005 Holiday Rambler Endeavor---2004 Honda CRV

RLSharp

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Re: Ford 460 - Vapor lock problem???
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2011, 04:19:17 PM »
I seem to have read somewhere that this is a common Ford problem with fuel pump vapor lock.  Is this a fump pump issue, or is it a problem somewhere along the fuel rail??

Ryan,

Check out a great discussion on Ford's early 1990's fuel pump problems and the TSB that tells how to solve the problem at: http://www.rverscorner.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=49&sid=a54f3b7eb6a3ea1342dbdf0156cd6167
 
If your fuel pump is operating properly, it essentially impossible to get vapor lock. The fuel pump should create pressures in the 40 psi range and hence no vapor lock.
 
Richard
Richard & Linda
Rochester, NY (summer)
Tucson, AZ (winter)

rgnprof

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Re: Ford 460 - Vapor lock problem???
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2011, 10:12:13 PM »
Thanks for the link, Richard.

If I replace this fuel pump, any recommendations?  Ford/Motorcraft part?  Aftermarket - RockAuto has pumps by Carter, Airtex, Denso, Delphi (which I think I read is the actual supplier of the Ford pump).  I've also run across Walbro pumps?

Do I just replace the pump and filter stuff, or do I need to replace the whole assembly?  Big price difference...

ryan

RLSharp

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Re: Ford 460 - Vapor lock problem???
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2011, 11:18:12 PM »
Thanks for the link, Richard.

If I replace this fuel pump, any recommendations?

I replaced mine with a Ford pump. Make sure that you get the redesigned pump and not one of the original models. I would be really surprised if there are any of the original models still available, but you never know.

When you consider the labor involved, either by you or paid labor, I think I would go with a Ford replacement. I would check with a Ford shop to see whether any or all of the cost could be covered under warranty. I know it is far out of warranty, however, Ford knows that the original pump had a problem and redesigned it. When I replaced mine, people with the same year F-53 chassis were getting their pumps replaced under warranty. Unfortunately, there was no Ford dealer within 125 miles of my location and it would have required that I be towed to a Ford dealer at my expense. It cost me a little over $600.
 
Richard
Richard & Linda
Rochester, NY (summer)
Tucson, AZ (winter)

rgnprof

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Re: Ford 460 - Vapor lock problem???
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2011, 05:40:45 PM »
I have been looking for fuel pumps and i'm confused - there are so many different styles and options.  If you go to Rockauto.com, and enter 1993 Ford E350 w/7.5L motor you will see what I mean.  Motorcraft sells two different pump/sender assemblies- PFS46 and PFS47 - depending on where the tank is located (mine is behind the real axle).  But, if you are just replacing the pump, some don't even look the same.  Some look like normal fuel pumps, while others are white plastic looking...

Both of the pumps attached are Bosch, for example...I guess the white one is the module containing the pump...??

ryan

RLSharp

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Re: Ford 460 - Vapor lock problem???
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2011, 11:34:48 PM »
I have been looking for fuel pumps and i'm confused - there are so many different styles and options.

That's why I would go with the genuine Ford replacement. It will most likely cost you more, but you know it is an exact replacement. JMO

Richard
Richard & Linda
Rochester, NY (summer)
Tucson, AZ (winter)