RV's: The Big Rip!

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The problem is quality control only goes so far when there is a lack of quality materials going into the RV's being built today, lack of skilled workers just makes it that much worse. The real problem here is that staples are cheaper than screws, and it does not matter to the RV manufacturers if those staples are going to fall out after a couple of years, as by then it will be out of warranty.

I feel the only thing that might solve this problem is a government mandate that all vehicles must come with a minimum of a 5 year bumper to bumper warranty.
 
If their new QC procedures were implemented be someone who really understood the principles of QA (Quality Assurance) as opposed to QC, then the new price point would still be $150k, and the manufacturer would be enjoying a larger profit margin.
I dispute that, because they don't spend all that much on warranty repairs and have almost zero product returns. Thus there is little to be saved by improving initial quality. The QA principle that quality doesn't cost extra assumes that only perfect products are viable in the market place, but that is clearly not the case with RVs. Or site built houses either.

Admittedly, no RV manufacturer can afford to give a longer warranty than 12 months because of the fundamental lack of QA. That doesn't seem to be a drawback in the market either.
 
I dispute that, because they don't spend all that much on warranty repairs and have almost zero product returns. Thus there is little to be saved by improving initial quality. The QA principle that quality doesn't cost extra assumes that only perfect products are viable in the market place, but that is clearly not the case with RVs. Or site built houses either.

Admittedly, no RV manufacturer can afford to give a longer warranty than 12 months because of the fundamental lack of QA. That doesn't seem to be a drawback in the market either.
I believe the correct term is "planned obsolescence " lol if it breaks you have to replace
 
The problem is quality control only goes so far when there is a lack of quality materials going into the RV's being built today, lack of skilled workers just makes it that much worse. The real problem here is that staples are cheaper than screws, and it does not matter to the RV manufacturers if those staples are going to fall out after a couple of years, as by then it will be out of warranty.

I feel the only thing that might solve this problem is a government mandate that all vehicles must come with a minimum of a 5 year bumper to bumper warranty.
I'm really a free market guy and cringe whenever the mention of "government" is involved.
That does not mean I'm against regulation, per se. But it's definitely beginning to look like some form of buyer recourse is necessary, something stronger than just "buyer beware".

The housing construction industry has BOCA codes and is largely self-governed, with government oversight and recourse mechanisms. It seems like something like that could be implemented. Yes, I know there are unscrupulous operators in that industry, as there are everywhere, including the oversight. While they cause lots of headaches, or worse, they generally don't last long.

There should be a published catalog of best practices and standards, and those best practices should be backed up by laboratory testing, similar to what the auto industry, housing industry and aircraft industry have done. For anyone who wants to argue that already exists I say phooey. There is no proof of it. Unattached panels would be a sure-fire red flag for any other safety violations.

I'm not against government oversight with a healthy dose of self-regulation and published standards.


Kevin
 
Considering the price, I'm thrilled with the quality of my travel trailer so far. But if it turns out to be junk, and the next one is junk, and the one after that is junk, I think I will quit buying them.
 
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my .02's worth. one main problem is, most rv's..if not all by now ?, sell us rv's that are filled with parts made in china..or lord forbid...worse ?!. second, they all are on a time frame, the faster they can slap it together ?, the faster they get them to the dealer !. third:, most workers in these plants are probably making min wage ?, so they really do not care if they build it right or not, they have a quota to make, and that is all they care about. QC goes right out the window on rv's, they simply do not care if it falls apart, all they care about is it making it past that 1 year warranty ?!.

I just purchased a 2021 , 18rd, sunlite classic, very happy with it..so far ?..lol. one issue i have had to deal with is the rear door steps ( rear door entry ), the steps are not the correct fold up/inside steps for this camper, not because of the doorway, it is because of the rear bumper under the door !. i am fixing this problem. YES, I DID BRING THIS TO THE SALESMAN AT THE TIME OF GOING OVER IT !, but as always, i got the lame excuse that the trailer is not level ?, AND THIS HAD NOTHING...AND I MEAN NOTHING TO DO WITH THE WAY THE STEPS FOLD DOWN, AND REST ON THE REAR BUMPER !.

As with anything we buy today, most are made in china ( least the parts inside are ), and this is what we get when we buy rv's. until manufactures are being sued for crappy workmanship ?, they still will roll off the line.
 
I'm really a free market guy and cringe whenever the mention of "government" is involved.
That does not mean I'm against regulation, per se. But it's definitely beginning to look like some form of buyer recourse is necessary, something stronger than just "buyer beware".

The housing construction industry has BOCA codes and is largely self-governed, with government oversight and recourse mechanisms. It seems like something like that could be implemented. Yes, I know there are unscrupulous operators in that industry, as there are everywhere, including the oversight. While they cause lots of headaches, or worse, they generally don't last long.

There should be a published catalog of best practices and standards, and those best practices should be backed up by laboratory testing, similar to what the auto industry, housing industry and aircraft industry have done. For anyone who wants to argue that already exists I say phooey. There is no proof of it. Unattached panels would be a sure-fire red flag for any other safety violations.

I'm not against government oversight with a healthy dose of self-regulation and published standards.


Kevin

I'm not here to argue, but to ask a legit question. Is the chassis not already covered by automotive standards and regs? And the house portion - RVIA comes to mind, and various systems have to conform to ANSI, NFPA, etc....I'm sure there are more?

Recourse for shoddy workmanship and cheap components failing before their expected service life is generally handled through the dealer, and then the manufacturer. Or am I missing something?
 
I'm not here to argue, but to ask a legit question. Is the chassis not already covered by automotive standards and regs? And the house portion - RVIA comes to mind, and various systems have to conform to ANSI, NFPA, etc....I'm sure there are more?

Recourse for shoddy workmanship and cheap components failing before their expected service life is generally handled through the dealer, and then the manufacturer. Or am I missing something?
No argument from me, very valid rebuttal. Sorry, but I can't answer your questions. I'm not an industry insider, simply another user. Your questions are also mine. Except for the RVIA those groups don't have anything to do with the RV industry specifically. They are engineering standards dealing with components, not necessarily completed units, and no authority to penalize anyone for improper use, though they may revoke certification.

The chassis is only part of the equation. And from what I've read, the chassis itself is usually not a problem. But rather what the builder does to it or loads onto it, perhaps exceeding design specs. What buyers are having problems with is the house and components installed in the house.

I agree, the RVIA should have standards to be met. Either they do, and they are not adequate, not enforced, or ignored. Or they don't. Some groups you mentioned deal only with component specifications, they don't control how they are used. Perhaps you can tell me which organization you would complain to covering the installation of an unsupported or unattached body panel? I sure can't.

As for recourse through dealers and manufactures, have you been reading the complaints? The manufacturer putting out garbage in the first place is the complaint. Will they really be there to actually fix the problem? Or simply state "It meets the designed specs"? The dealers don't or won't fix the problems after the sale. Taking it to the legal level takes years and money. In my case, both are in short supply.

I do not mean to be making blanket statements here as obviously not every vehicle that gets sold is a lemon, but there are certainly enough complaints to give pause to anyone considering buying a new model (that would be me). I know the devil I have now, and have dealt with it's bad habits years ago. Do I really want to learn a new one?


Kevin
 
my .02's worth. one main problem is, most rv's..if not all by now ?, sell us rv's that are filled with parts made in china..or lord forbid...worse ?!. second, they all are on a time frame, the faster they can slap it together ?, the faster they get them to the dealer !. third:, most workers in these plants are probably making min wage ?, so they really do not care if they build it right or not, they have a quota to make, and that is all they care about.
Well, you’re $.02 worth brings up some interesting points. If the parts were made in the US, wouldn’t the price of the product increase? If the employees building the RV’s were paid a decent wage wouldn’t the prices increase. RV’s are already expensive. But I guess what you inferring is you are willing to pay considerably more for a “quality” unit. On the other hand would the CEO’s just increase the cost and keep the workmanship shoddy and pocket the extra $$$$.
 
Well, you’re $.02 worth brings up some interesting points. If the parts were made in the US, wouldn’t the price of the product increase? If the employees building the RV’s were paid a decent wage wouldn’t the prices increase. RV’s are already expensive. But I guess what you inferring is you are willing to pay considerably more for a “quality” unit. On the other hand would the CEO’s just increase the cost and keep the workmanship shoddy and pocket the extra $$$$.
i don't mind paying a higher price for better parts ( as long as its made in usa ! ). you are correct..it boils down to a trade off..do we want low cost , cheap rv's ?, or do we want top notch, high dollar rv's ?. hmmm.
 
i don't mind paying a higher price for better parts ( as long as its made in usa ! ). you are correct..it boils down to a trade off..do we want low cost , cheap rv's ?, or do we want top notch, high dollar rv's ?. hmmm.
"The market" has answered that question.
 
Hello, one and all! I'm needing a place to vent, so here I am.

I've been RV'ing for over thirty years. I'm currently on RV #5. I buy new.

As a guy who is extremely handy, a guy who has always done 95% of my own electrical, plumbing, gas, roofing, carpentry and general repairs on my own house and rental properties and, about, 75% of my own repairs on my vehicles and RV's, I feel qualified to make this charge against makers of RV's that I have bought, new, and owned for a while, before selling them.

As I see it, all RV's in the more than entry level units, but less than the top of the market units, are built so poorly, with such shoddy workmanship and quality control, and terrible design/layouts, that it's amazing that this industry still manages to push its junk onto consumers, year after year.

I am not going to get into what units I've owned. I don't want to go there, so I won't. Here, however, is a list of things that made no sense, at all, on my current TT that I bought, new, in 2018:

1. A double recliner was fit tightly in at the end of this unit. It blocked 50% of the usable counter space. I'm a gourmet, vegan chef, so counter space is important to me. The only remedy to this goofy furniture placement was to get on my knees, on the recliner, to prep dishes, or sell it, and put in a single recliner, which I did.

2. The overhead bedroom light had no wall switch. To turn it on, you had to get on the bed and then walk on your knees to where you could reach up and turn on the light. There's a wall switch, now.

3. The only reading light in the bedroom was a duplicate of the blindingly bright, central bedroom light, directly over the head of the bed. I took out that light, spliced another line in, and now there are two reading lights with push button switches, on the walls, on either side of the bed.

4. The bathroom vent was impossible to open without a ladder/foot stool. The fan switch was unreachable, as well. Now, the turn handle has an extension on it, and the fan has a wall switch.

5. The trim, all over this unit, was not secured properly to the wall. It is, now.

6. The AC ducts were a joke. They were missing insulation, and they had the thinnest aluminum tape on the market. In the central inset that contains the AC unit, itself, the installer had, apparently, run out of the proper trim boards for the installation, so he/she used one of the run pieces made for the central duct router. It had a duct cut-out in its center. Result: I was cooling the space between my ceiling and roof, blowing air into the insulation! The result of this idiocy was that my central unit rained water down onto my floor. A similar situation was found in every delivery vent. All were insulated, properly, by me, and my inside rain shower stopped, immediately.

7. The annoying, fabric accordion window shades gave me no option to have light, with privacy. Mini blinds solved that problem.

8. The toilet, a D300, has, inexplicably, a hollow section in back of it. There, "liquids" collect from the seam between the two sections of this plastic piece of garbage. The stench had nothing to do with my holding tank. I was tearing my hair out trying to solve that problem until I found the hollow behind the unit. The solution was to remove the unit, pressure wash it, dry it throughly, caulk the seam, and reinstall.

9. The bedroom, swing-out window surprised me, during one trip, as I drove. I looked in my side-view mirror to see the window and curtains swinging in the wind! The solution was to secure the latch with a hair band.

10. There were no back-up lights. Not cool, for night drivers. There are lights, now.

11. The bottom trim panels were flapping in the breeze, as I drove! Upon inspection it was obvious that the moron doing the installation had neglected to use a template for his/ her screw placements. All bottom screws missed the wooden strip that runs the length of the frame by three inches! I installed new screws, correctly.

12. The corner AC roof drip spouts were attached with only two screws on only one facing. The result, of course, was that they bent, in the wind. I attached two screws to the other facings. Problem solved.

13. The end caps of the power awning were attached with only two of six required screws. One cap blew off. The new cap is properly secured as is the old cap that remained.

14. The PT relief valve was facing directly into the heater exhaust. It isn't, now.

And on, and on, and.......

My point, with all of the above, is that the RV Industry sells new units that have a long list of things wrong with them, from the start. These are not cheap units, but not very expensive units. I'm talking $35-$50K, here. In general, I believe most new RV buyers are older men. I also believe that most buyers in this group, probably don't do most of their repairs themselves. I can only imagine how this group is ripped off, once warranty time is up!

I do not get into having dealers do repairs. Warranties are great, if you don't mind leaving your unit at the dealer for weeks/months. I do mind.

The only warranty work I had was in getting the bent arm of my awning replaced, a few days after I brought my unit home. The technician drove thirty miles to my place, and we did the job, together, in under an hour. Unfortunately, the Service Manager who set that up is no longer at the dealer. Yeah, the really good ones never last.

If the RV Industry was held accountable for putting its junk on the market, I think quality control might actually be brought into the assembly line. Unfortunately, i doubt that will ever happen. Oh well.......

(I will not mention specific models and manufacturers, so don't ask. I hate reading the BS line, "Oh, I have that unit, and I've never had any problems with it!" I've been around long enough to know that most RV buyers, in the price range I cited, above, come to realize how shoddy their units have been built, sooner or later.)
I've owned RV's for over fifty years. They have the same issues today plus a few more, as they had fifty odd years ago. Welcome to the mind set of big business, and it's just not the RV business, it's all about the $$$$. I decided to accept this '' business mind set'' years ago. It took less energy than fighting it. I try to anticipate the lack of quality in products and adjust accordingly. Example: RV's for the most part start leaking some where from day one. So you either real seal every thing or trade every couple of years so your not stuck with a camper with something rotted. Unfortunately that is just the way things are .
 
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It is axiomatic among quality professionals that quality can not be inspected into a product. The American workforce is not composed of a bunch of lazy slobs who just don't care. given the proper knowledge and the proper tools. they can and will produce a quality product. Without the proper knowledge and the proper tools, the only possible result is garbage.
I know a slew of quality professionals who will disagree with that statement. We had steel fabrication plants coast to coast. We had a very hard time finding "quality" employees willing to do hard manual labor in a factory environment. Similar to RV manufacturing. Many quit after 1 day on the job or after their first paycheck. That helped my career because my job was to replace people with machines. Machines don't get tired and usually don't get distracted. Which is why strict QC is necessary if the company cares about quality.
 
Two quotes by Sir Richard Branson:

  • Train people well enough so they can leave, treat them well enough so they don’t want to.
  • “Clients do not come first. Employees come first. If you take care of your employees, they will take care of the clients.”
 
I view things a little differently. This is why. I bought my current RV in 2017, ordered it actually and got a build date. At that time, owners could go to the factory in Red Bay, AL and follow their RV down the assembly line floor and watch it being put together piece by piece. So I did. 3 days I spent on the floor of the plant, within feet of the workers, taking hundreds of pics as they worked. 95% of the workers were friendly, would answer a question, and seemed pretty positive about the job they were doing.

Every 4 "stations" had at least one inspector that floated back and forth and monitored the assembly. They carried colored rolls of masking tape and if they saw a flaw, they put a piece of tape on it. Before the unit was allowed to "roll" to the next station, a worker had to correct the issue. I was also allowed to bring any issues to the attention of the inspector, who would get it handled. I did see a few small things I brought to an inspectors attention, but they saw and marked many things that I didn't realize was a flaw.

On the 3rd day of the build, at the end of the day, a worker was testing the TV's in my rig. He couldn't get a picture via over the air antenna on any TV. The line was due to "roll" to the next station before the workers could leave, and my rig was stopping the progress. This drew the attention of several managers, and even the plant supervisor. The problem was finally traced to a missed cable connection behind the panel in the water bay. A "newer worker" had just missed the connection, although he did make several other ones in the same area. I stood a few feet away listening as the managers, supervisor, and inspectors discussed the issue.

The plant supervisor was stern when addressing his crew. He advised that there would be a QC meeting in the morning before work for everyone on the line. He simply stated "This will not happen again!". I do believe that the majority of workers, supervisors and managers do want to turn out a quality product, but sometimes things slide through. And this was only on one line of rigs that was being built, there were 5 other lines all in progress building different models.

I realize not all manufacturers are that conscience about their products, and not all workers have the same attention to detail, but they try. No one wants to turn out a bad product, but they are all in business to make money, and the bean counters keep a tight eye on the bottom line. Even the top of the line rigs, like Marathon Coach, Country Coach, and Newell have problems with their products and they produce rigs costing well over a million.

For a product that is almost completely hand made, one at a time, from the lowest price entry level rigs, to the top of the heap, it's amazing that they get it right as often as they do.

I have owned 9 different RV's, from truck campers, to my current 40' Bus, and none were problem free. Some had more issues, some had less. But they all took me down the road to adventure.
 
Seems to me, these same arguments were made about the American auto industry at one point. Quality is 1000% better now than back in those days. Gee, i wonder why! Can we say ..... Competition from overseas!
 

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