Thoughts on plug-in hybrid conversion

[BlueDotTom]

Hello!

I am the founder of a Seattle-based startup. We are developing a family of universal retrofit kits that convert existing vehicles into plug-in hybrids. Our first product will be for pickup trucks, and I am hoping to get some thoughts from this and other RV communities on what features may be desirable, what the major concerns would be, etc. My thinking is that for people who use their trucks for daily driving but also frequent towing, our product could be very attractive, especially because it can be used as a generator.

In a nutshell, the kits add an electric propulsion system good for 30-45 miles of range without removing the engine. The battery pack and power electronics get mounted in the bed like a small bed toolbox. We remove a section of the tubular part of the driveshaft and install a “coaxial drive unit” that has an electric motor stack, a planetary transmission, and a multi-mode clutch that can shift-on-the-fly. The clutch allows EV operation while disconnecting the engine/tranny, engine operation while disconnecting the electric motors, and generator mode which uses the engine to spin the electric motors without turning the wheels. A linkage that connects to the axle tubes provides reaction torque. We’ve prototyped a simplified version of the system and tested in on real roads.

Because the systems are universal, we can mass-produce them, have them installed by third-parties, and hit a much lower price point than other conversions (approximately $7k-10K covering the range from midsize to ¾ ton). I’d love to get the group’s thoughts and gage the level of interest.

 

[Tulecreeper]

The battery pack and power electronics get mounted in the bed like a small bed toolbox.

Right off the bat, you're taking up part of my cargo capacity in my truck bed.

 

[BlueDotTom]

Right off the bat, you're taking up part of my cargo capacity in my truck bed.

That is correct. You'd lose about 10 inches. We understand that for some, losing any is too much. But for others, maybe not a big deal. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Tulecreeper]

That is correct. You'd lose about 10 inches. We understand that for some, losing any is too much. But for others, maybe not a big deal. Thanks for sharing!

It works out to 6 cu-ft. Not including what the weight of the battery and assorted components weigh. I wish you the best.

 

[BlueDotTom]

Thank you for the well wishes!

 

[Mountain high]

It works out to 6 cu-ft. Not including what the weight of the battery and assorted components weigh. I wish you the best.

Conversely, 1 cubic foot equals: 7.48 U.S. liquid gallons x 6 cubic feet equals approximately a 45 gallon auxiliary fuel tank which isn't going to cost up to $10K. An additional plus is that the spent fuel weighs nothing more than air and the tank plus the assorted components versus lugging around much heavier spent hybrid batteries and assorted components. Also, 45 additional gallons of fuel in a mid-sized to 3/4 ton truck will have a much higher range than 30-45 miles.

 

[BlueDotTom]

You are absolutely right. But just to clarify, the goal of the system is not to increase total range, it is to allow someone who uses their pickup for daily driving to dramatically cut their fuel usage.

 

[Ex-Calif]

You are absolutely right. But just to clarify, the goal of the system is not to increase total range, it is to allow someone who uses their pickup for daily driving to dramatically cut their fuel usage.

it depends on the price point for sure but you are also on the wrong marketing strategy for RVers.

RVers bitch and moan about gas prices but they are generally impervious to price. Drive a $200k coach and $0.10 a gallon comes into perspective real quick.

OTOH - If you marketed it like "KERS" for Formula 1 I'd consider buying it. If I could get a 30-50hp boost while climbing a grade at 45mph I would be in hog heaven. Especially if I could regenerate the power on the descent with regenerative braking.

Could also be very interesting for the tractor trailer market.

(Available to do marketing consulting for around $500 an hour - LOL)

 

[NMJEEP]

Would the market support $7-10K for 45 mile range? I think your consumer market would be very small. Large city drivers that don't use a truck as a truck with a commute under 30 miles. As for my RV the weight and range would not be practical.

 

[Gary RV_Wizard]

Unlike the others, I see your market approach as an attractive one. Making a "daily driver" pickup more fuel-efficient (and "green" as well) reduces the negative impact of owning a truck suitable for RV towing. Whether it adds enough capability to be worth the cost of the upgrade is going to be the challenge. If that $7k-$10k doesn't include installation, it may be a really tough sell. And you need to support 1-ton pickups as well to cover a big chunk of the RV towing market.

If I understand it correctly, the electric drive is engaged manually via a transfer case, so the vehicle is either in electric mode or gas/diesel mode. I'm a bit unclear on what the "generator mode" achieves when spinning the motors. What sort of electric power output is available for external use?

 

[Steven UK]

Interesting idea... personally I don't like change. But I'm also the engineer for a major off road machinery manufacturer that has to deal with alternative fuels. I do actually enjoy this role a lot so I can see both sides of the argument. Currently I am testing the first electric tractors to hit the US market and these are all conversions i.e. regular small farm tractors with diesel motors replaced with electric motors and batteries. These are bad, the next generation that has a dedicated electric chassis will be much more viable. I like your idea and I wish you the best of luck. My GF's family are giant mid-West farmers and they drive EV's because of the convenience and economics. I agree with your point of view on it suiting some people but will it be enough? For people with excess free solar then a free groceries shopping trip would be beneficial especially if you have the ICE to get you home or to remove the 'range anxiety' that we all have. I drive a small 4cyl truck with a pathetic weight capacity so probably wouldn't handle the weight your tech. I also have a Cyber truck on order which I probably will never take delivery of.
I would love to see your idea succeed, and with more and more people hauling around solar on their RV's it could very well happen.

And lets not forget Tier 5 diesel emissions regulations that are on the horizon, this will affect new vehicle prices. Which in turn will make older vehicles more attractive to update with new tech.

Are there any subsidies available for your product?

Give me an affordable Hydrogen Fuel Cell truck conversion and onboard Hydrogen Electrolizer (creates Hydrogen from Solar) and I will be sold. Bring on the future...!

Regards Steven

 

[Steven UK]

Also pre Covid I would spend about $2500 a year on Gas and typically drive about 40m round trip to the office. Now I fill up about every other week so $1250. I am sure there are people on here who could make this a 4 year payback.

Probably 10-12 years ago Chevrolet were touting an 'in transmission' hybrid drive truck that never made it to market.

I think the Driveshaft idea is a great way to retrofit... and provide extra power where needed.

The one thing i do like about my GF's car is even though it has a tiny engine... it can really accelerate when combined with the electric motor.

Regards Steven

 

[BlueDotTom]

Great stuff folks...I'll try to get to everything below:

We're definitely not going after the entire RV market, and it's not even our primary market. I see our target customer in this segment as someone who already has a pickup that they use as a daily driver and sometimes to tow their travel trailer / 5th wheel (not pushing the payload limit). Through some combination of wanting to be green and hating paying for gas, they want to reduce their fuel consumption. They either can't afford a Lightning or the poor towing range won't work for them. So they finance our system, save more money on gas than the monthly payment, and get the bonus of a built-in generator for wilderness camping. Far from everyone, but I would think this would describe some reasonable fraction.

We're definitely interested in pursuing the "kers" type system where the motor can augment the engine. This gets more complicated from a regulatory standpoint, so we're not going after it initially. But we have a hardware design that supports it. So right now you're either only engine, only motor, or using the engine to spin the motor without turning the wheels (generator). We haven't determine the power we will make available in generator mode, but certainly at least 10 kW.

Somewhat unfortunately, many pickups are used just as basic transport 95% of the time. The break even point for a typical commuter paying my local gas prices is about 3.3 years, and the lifetime savings would be about $15k.

Installation takes less than a day and the price will depend on local shop rates (we will have installation partners like Tire Rack).

I got to see an electric tractor at a trade show a couple of weeks ago. Pretty dang slick. Obviously won't support every use case, but if the charge easily covers your typical daily usage, it's super nice.

At the moment there aren't subsidies, but we are working to have existing and upcoming subsidies apply to retrofits. Total game changer, obviously, with the federal rebate for PHEVs at $7,500. We will be able to leverage carbon credits in states that have cap-and-trade systems in place. These could offset up to about half of the price.

Thanks again folks!

 

[Skookum]

I think the idea is attractive at face value. I generally support EV's and technologies and initiatives which reduce our dependence on oil just to power our vehicles.

I feel like this is going to be a niche market aimed at buyers with lots of disposable income. I think with many EV technologies a lot of people are wary of things that take years to break-even, and then a number of years beyond that to save significant money. The other factor is obsolescence. Personally, it's not something I'd be interested in springing for, for my pickup. I expect I'll be purchasing a fully battery-electric vehicle in the next 10-15 years with a reasonable expectation that charging will be a lot easier by then. I've made the decision to skip the between-steps of hybrids and other technologies that add complexity (and a lot of waste, if we're being honest) until the technology is fully cooked, so to speak.

 

[Steven UK]

I think the idea is attractive at face value. I generally support EV's and technologies and initiatives which reduce our dependence on oil just to power our vehicles.

I feel like this is going to be a niche market aimed at buyers with lots of disposable income. I think with many EV technologies a lot of people are wary of things that take years to break-even, and then a number of years beyond that to save significant money. The other factor is obsolescence. Personally, it's not something I'd be interested in springing for, for my pickup. I expect I'll be purchasing a fully battery-electric vehicle in the next 10-15 years with a reasonable expectation that charging will be a lot easier by then. I've made the decision to skip the between-steps of hybrids and other technologies that add complexity (and a lot of waste, if we're being honest) until the technology is fully cooked, so to speak.

I think that covers most people right now but there will be some early adopters... if I had that kind of disposable income I would like to have a hybrid old school 1/2 ton truck. unfortunately I just sold my 63.

 

[Onyrlef]

I wouldn't quit my day job just yet. A person can buy a lot of gas for $10,000 + recharge costs + replacing the battery after how long? I'm no candidate for a recurring role on shark tank ( I thought what could ever replace 8 track tapes?) but I'm thinking the market for that in this age of EV's would be limited and short lived.

 

[tlmgcamp]

How much does the package weigh?

 

[Onyrlef]

I expect I'll be purchasing a fully battery-electric vehicle in the next 10-15 years with a reasonable expectation that charging will be a lot easier by then.

I fully expect to be dead in 10-15 years.

 

[Tulecreeper]

it depends on the price point for sure but you are also on the wrong marketing strategy for RVers.

RVers bitch and moan about gas prices but they are generally impervious to price. Drive a $200k coach and $0.10 a gallon comes into perspective real quick.

OTOH - If you marketed it like "KERS" for Formula 1 I'd consider buying it. If I could get a 30-50hp boost while climbing a grade at 45mph I would be in hog heaven. Especially if I could regenerate the power on the descent with regenerative braking.

Could also be very interesting for the tractor trailer market.

(Available to do marketing consulting for around $500 an hour - LOL)

That has crossed my mind often. I see comments all the time from people who are driving a 20,000#, $200k MH, or they are towing a $90k, 15k-pound 5th-wheel, and they knew ahead of time it was going to limit their MPG, but they're complaing about gas prices.

I didn't buy a RAM 2500 with a 15k# towing capacity because I thought it would save me money towing a 10,000# trailer. I bought it solely because it will tow a 10,000# trailer. I literally don't care about gas prices or I would have given up the idea of RVing and bought a Yugo.

 

[Tulecreeper]

I fully expect to be dead in 10-15 years.

You're too ornery to die.