Battery Charging Question

The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an RV or an interest in RVing!
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

aguablanco

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 20, 2015
Posts
238
Location
Mesa, AZ
I recently installed 415W of solar and a 40A Rich Solar charge controller on my trailer. I am currently using two 12v lead acid batteries in parallel and considering going to a Lifepo4 200ah battery. I do not plan to install an inverter in the foreseeable future. Do I have enough solar for this battery? Any ideas on charge rates?
Thanks,
Canyon
 
You should have. The solar, depending sun will "fill" the battery and the controller should phase back as it gets full. 415W / 12V = 34A
 
Do I have enough solar for this battery? Any ideas on charge rates?
IMO, best to install and ask a SmartShunt for such info. It will tell you all you need to know. People in this forum will have to guess how much you need for each night and that varies like crazy. The Smartshunt will give you useful numbers of how much you're using and charging every day.

I know I average using 10% of my 300 AH lith battery (30 AHs) per night when boondocked. I normally watch a couple of hours of TV and use my ham radio gear (100W CC on CW which isn't that much) on the average night.

-Don- Reno, NV
 
If you consider 80% efficiency on the solar and 6 hours of harvest time you'll get

34amps X 6 X .8 = 163 amp per day.

My rule of thumb is double the battery capacity number in watts for solar. So 200 a/h battery would be like 400W of solar to be "matched."

What you didn't ask is is that sufficient to power the RV. That depends on how much you are drawing per day. LED lights, tv at night, charging devices and the various 12V controllers - fridge, water heater, furnace are the main draws.

70-80 amps per 24 hours is a wild guess. You should be able to run a couple days with no sun. After the sun comes out it will take about 2-3 days to fully charge the batteries - If the RV draws 80 per day and you have 163 amps you'll need 2-3 days to fill up 200 a/h of battery.

As DonTom says a smart monitor would help see where you are but a simple cigarette plug voltmeter can help. A fully charged battery bank will be 12.6 at rest. If the voltage is higher the system is charging. If the voltage is lower the system is discharging. When the system gets below 11.5-ish you are about 50% depleted and batteries are depleted at about 10.1.
 
The key here is what Ex-Calif described. You need enough solar to replace what you use each day, and enough battery capacity to carry you through a day or so without adequate sun. A full 200 AH battery will last some people 3-4 days and others only 24 hours. With no inverter and moderate use of lighting and other 12v devices, I would guess you are good for a couple days on lead-acid and maybe 3-4 on LiFePO4.

The 34A estimate is optimistic. Charging voltage needs to be in the 14v range and most solar panels are rated at their output voltage, which is often in the 15v-18v range. 415 watts / 15v = 27 amps per hour of full sunlight. That's still enough to put 80-100 AH back in the batteries in 3-4 hours at peak sun angles. If you are in Arizona and more-or-less open ground, that should be easy to achieve.
 
Thanks for the help guys, really good info. I am going to finish this season with the lead acid batteries and look during the off season for the Lifepo4 battery. Right now I am leaning toward the Ampere Time 200ah unit for ~$700.
Just for clarity, I am only using the batteries for 12v systems and I do not plan to ever have an inverter. That's why I have a generator for back up.
Canyon
 
Guess I should mention that I have the Rich Solar 40A charge controller, with Bluetooth and battery temp sensor, and it does give me quite a bit of info on battery status, charge rate, PV panel output and so forth. Thanks again for all the great info.
Canyon
 
Guess I should mention that I have the Rich Solar 40A charge controller, with Bluetooth and battery temp sensor, and it does give me quite a bit of info on battery status, charge rate, PV panel output and so forth. Thanks again for all the great info.
Canyon
Right on, you might still want some type of battery monitor but sometimes getting a readout from the charge controller or another device is enough. Lithium is great at holding it's voltage, so it's difficult to know how much charge is remaining unless you've been tracking the discharge rate. The thing we see most helpful about the Victron Energy Smartshunt mentioned earlier is accurate tracking of the battery SOC (State of Charge).
 
IMO, best to install and ask a SmartShunt for such info. It will tell you all you need to know. People in this forum will have to guess how much you need for each night and that varies like crazy. The Smartshunt will give you useful numbers of how much you're using and charging every day.

I know I average using 10% of my 300 AH lith battery (30 AHs) per night when boondocked. I normally watch a couple of hours of TV and use my ham radio gear (100W CC on CW which isn't that much) on the average night.

-Don- Reno, NV
So this is for DC it looks like. Do you know of a good CT that works for AC like this?
 
I keep seeing folks make calculations using 12VDC as the charging voltage. To be safe I would use 14.6VDC as the charging voltage on a LiFePO battery. So if you start out with 415W solar (under ideal lab conditions) and use the 80% Ex-Calif rule, you get 415*.8=332W. So at LiFePO battery charging voltage of 14.6V you end up with 332/14.6=22.7A.

So figure 23A per hour for 6 hours = 138A into the battery pack per sunny day. Is that enough? depends on your usage when the sun don't shine. The LiFePO would take the charge till full but the LA would not.
 
I keep seeing folks make calculations using 12VDC as the charging voltage.
Excellent point! For practical purposes a 12v battery won't charge at all until the voltage reaches about 13.3v, so 14+ should be your voltage target. Also, the rated wattage of the panel was not measured at 12.0v. It was probably rated at the voltage it produces in full sun, maybe as much as 15v-18v (I haven't seem any standard for rating solar panels - is there one?). So don't assume a 100W panel will push 100/12=8.3 amps into your batteries - it's probably closer to 7.0.
 
Last edited:
The standard is to spec the peak power using "STC" (Standard Test Conditions) of 1kW/M^2, controlled temperature. So you're right, at what voltage the peak power happens varies between panels and likely is well north of 14V. So to realize peak power you need a PPT controller but even then you'll be nowhere near the 1kW/M^2 insolation and ideal conditions to hit "rated" power. 70-80% is as close a WAG as you'll probably ever see.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM
 
Voltage for solar is generally about 0.6VDC per cell.

There is what’s called an IV curve for solar modules which is inverse log of current and voltage. Plotted on that scale you have Voc, Vmp, Isc, and Imp.

Voc = Voltage open circuit
Vmp = Voltage max power
Isc = Current, short circuit
Imp = Current, max

Now, most devices cannot handle such large variations in voltage and/or current which is where the solar controller or MPPT comes into play. If you plugged a solar module directly into a battery or other electronics you’d likely start a fire. Your solar controller is essentially a variable dc to dc converter. Find the range it can handle on the solar end, match it to whatever system you need it to power and you have just completed your system design.

I didn’t cover the most important part. Pick the size of system you want first. That is, how much do you want to power from the inverter and/or your solar set up?

In my case, I want to power about 3kW. I found a couple really cool 3.5kW inverters. Both of the ones I’m looking at are called inverter charge controllers. That is, they are inverters, chargers and solar controllers all in one. I am deciding to start with one 48VDC 50Ah LiFePO4, maybe slightly bigger depending on price. I chose 48VDC because pushing 3.5kW out of a 12VDC battery is ludicrous, a waste of copper, and a potential fire hazard.

Always go with the higher voltage ratings, you can push less current and use thinner gauge wires. I will be increasing my battery bank because I plan to charge it while driving, will be more mobile, and solar modules are bulky, awkward, fragile, expensive, and I won’t be at my trailer all day moving an entire 5kW array to track the sun every minute. I won’t always be in a spot facing the sun, and wont have some crazy device sitting on my roof flapping in the wind while I travel 65 on the highway.

Yes, there is a big difference between the 200 - 400W rating of the module and the actual power you’ll be receiving when conditions are slightly less than perfectly ideal. 70 - 80 % is generous for “ideal.” If you don’t have solar trackers you’d be lucky to see that rate for a couple hours a day.

If your question is anything to do with voltage and current, take a step back and rethink your design before messing with and installing solar on your rig. It’s cool sure, I have one module as a backup, and don’t plan to invest heavily in it for my system. I should mention I work in commercial, industrial and utility scale solar as a Field O&M Technician.

Solar takes up a lot of space and only works if it’s pointed at the sun. This kind of contradicts the whole idea of mobile, not saying it doesn’t have its benefits.
 

Attachments

  • 5456D15B-8543-4C7A-ACFB-53066109B91E.png
    5456D15B-8543-4C7A-ACFB-53066109B91E.png
    27.1 KB · Views: 0
Now, most devices cannot handle such large variations in voltage and/or current which is where the solar controller or MPPT comes into play. If you plugged a solar module directly into a battery or other electronics you’d likely start a fire. Your solar controller is essentially a variable dc to dc converter. Find the range it can handle on the solar end, match it to whatever system you need it to power and you have just completed your system design.

That... Is likely the best description of what an MMPT controller does I've seen to date (in terms of easy to understand) I've said parts of that but Thanks for the rest.
 

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
131,929
Posts
1,387,695
Members
137,678
Latest member
David W.
Back
Top Bottom