DonTom
Well-known member
Can you provide a link for that?
Not that I am claiming EV batteries don't have their share of issues as does everything else man produces.
-Don- Auburn, CA
EV batteries
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Not that I am claiming EV batteries don't have their share of issues as does everything else man produces.
-Don- Auburn, CA
Ray-IN
Well-known member
EV battery safety: Electric Vehicle Crash Safety | Robson Forensic
We get better with time. I remember when Volkswagen used magnesium carburetors. It took the fire service many months to safely and efficiently adapt to extinguishing one on fire.
We get better with time. I remember when Volkswagen used magnesium carburetors. It took the fire service many months to safely and efficiently adapt to extinguishing one on fire.
Here are some links I found easily:
Visualizing 25 Years of Lithium Production, by Country
Lithium production has grown exponentially over the last few decades. Which countries produce the most lithium, and how has this mix evolved?
elements.visualcapitalist.com
Lithium mining: How new production technologies could fuel the global EV revolution
Lithium is the driving force behind electric vehicles, but will supply keep pace with demand? New lithium mining technology and supply sources can fill the gap.
www.mckinsey.com
Lithium - Wikipedia
Lithium Statistics and Information | U.S. Geological Survey
Statistics and information on the worldwide supply of, demand for, and flow of the mineral commodity lithium
DOE Invests Millions in America’s Massive Lithium-Production Potential
The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) yesterday took a huge step forward in its effort to shore up America’s domestic supply of battery-grade lithium—a substance that is indispensable to our transition to a clean-energy economy. Lithium, which, after a refi
How the US plans to transform its lithium supply chain
With just 3.6% of global reserves, U.S. access to the critical mineral is vital to the country’s sustainable energy plans.
South America's 'lithium fields' reveal the dark side of electric cars
Demand for lithium-ion batteries is unprecedented - but is mining the chemical harmful to the environment?
www.euronews.com
Lithium Sector: Production Costs Outlook | S&P Global Market Intelligence
Identify cost-efficient lithium mines on S&P Global Market Intelligence's lithium cost curve. Request a demo to learn more.
Lithium Extraction and Refining
Separate lithium ions from contaminants or concentrate brines for lithium extraction, reduced evaporation time or improved recovery.
www.saltworkstech.com
The world needs 2 billion electric vehicles to get to net zero. But is there enough lithium to make all the batteries?
Surging demand for electric vehicles means surging demand for lithium, a key metal for EV batteries. But global supplies are tight – and getting tighter.
www.weforum.org
Why the Rush to Mine Lithium Could Dry Up the High Andes
The demand for lithium for EV batteries is driving a mining boom in an arid Andes region of Argentina, Chile, and Bolivia, home to half the world’s reserves. Hydrologists are warning the mines could drain vital ecosystems and deprive Indigenous communities of precious water.
e360.yale.edu
Lithium - Minerals Education Coalition
Lithium is an element valuable for the production of glass, aluminum products, and batteries. It is mined from ores of petalite LiAl(Si2O5)2, lepidolite
mineralseducationcoalition.org
These demonstrate that the current amount of lithium being mined today, (about 100k tonnes per year, AFTER "refining" into the proper HIGH "grade"), would only supply thousands of EV batteries each year, when it NEEDS to produce MILLIONS instead.
This article goes into more detail, and has several other links that speak about it:
How Much Lithium is in a Li-Ion Vehicle Battery?
A very simple question! You’d think that finding an accurate answer to this question would be dead easy, with five spare minutes and Google…and you would in fact be dead wrong in that assumption! Why do I care? Why should you care? Because we’re constantly seeing rubbish articles with titles like “L
The ONE factor that seems to be UNKNOWN, though, is how much lithium is actually IN the earth, AS WE SPEAK! Without knowing that, we have NO IDEA how much longer we can pull THIS much lithium out of the earth through mining and brining to be ABLE to "process" it down to the proper "grade" of lithium NEEDED for the EV batteries.
The OTHER "problem" with this whole idea is lithium is in LIMITED supply, and CANNOT be "replenished" within the ground, like petroleum CAN. WHY would we go from a source that CAN be "regenerated" within the ground to one that CANNOT?!
The articles I linked above SHOW the "process" of "refining" the lithium in order to MAKE it the correct "grade" NEEDED for these EV batteries. That not only takes TIME, but MONEY, as well as FOSSIL FUELS for that "production"!! THIS is just PART of the "cost" of creating the EV battery, as well as the OTHER materials that are NECESSARY to create the "cathodes", "annodes", and OTHER parts of the battery, like Nickel, Cobalt, and Magnesium, and OTHER "metals", which ALSO have to be "mined" and "processed" to get to THEIR "grade" needed. Those OTHER metals ALSO need FOSSIL FUELS to DO that "processing"!! These are things that NOBODY ELSE seems to be thinking about, OR focussing ON when they spout their CRAP about EVs being "better" and being "zero emissions", because they are NOT counting ALL those "emissions" that are created BY the "processing" of those materials used to MAKE that EV battery, as well as the REST of the vehicle!!
SeilerBird
Well-known member
You sure love your caps lock. Caps lock is considered rude so you do you need to be rude when answering a question. I read the first few articles which did not address the question of where you got the idea that lithium uses so much more that a ICE uses. I scanned the rest of the articles and stopped reading when you became rude. Using caps lock a lot does not make you post stronger, it makes it weaker because I stopped reading.
Here's another article (How much CO2 is emitted by manufacturing batteries?), which says that for every ton of lithium processed, it takes 15 tons of CO2 emissions to make that happen!! That means 15 times as much "climate killing" fossil fuel emissions for a single amount of lithium!! And that's just for the lithium! There are similar "costs" in "emissions" to produce the other materials needed to make that same battery, like for the cathodes and annodes, and other parts!! This is also before the vehicle is manufactured! Granted, most of the "emissions" cost of ICE vehicles is after they're manufactured! I believe by comparison, EVs actually cost more than ICE vehicles, in the end!! By the time the EV breaks "even" in emissions, the ICE vehicle has already been "even" for some years!
Sorry! I did not mean to be "rude", but have used CAPS for "emphasis". I will try to change my way of typing to not be considered "rude" in the future.
OP
OP
DonTom
Well-known member
But in which link can I find:
"just the MATERIALS for the battery for the EV is 5-10 TIMES that for making an ENTIRE ICE vehicle!!"?
-Don- Auburn, CA
CharlesinGA
Well-known member
Sodium-Ion is up and coming and is now in production. Far less pollutants than Lithium and at least as good performance, though somewhat heavier. Sodium-ion does not have the cold weather charge issues that Lithium does, and thats a huge thing.
Charles.
How does one replenish Petroleum? It came from "dead dinosaurs" and took millions of years to form.
Charles.
OP
OP
DonTom
Well-known member
See here.
" No electric vehicles use sodium-ion batteries. Challenges to adoption include low energy density and insufficient charge-discharge cycles."
IMO, the vaporware on EV batteries is insane. New types of batteries mentioned everyday but they never get to EVs for one reason or another.
But at least they are trying. No doubt improvements will continue, but not nearly as fast as the vaporware on EV batteries.
-Don- Auburn, CA
the next batch of oil and particularly gas will come from dead politicians, it will be a new 'green' variety.. :0
SeilerBird
Well-known member
If you have to make up statistics to win an argument then your case is very weak. He has been asked several times to prove his point and he cannot do it. I often wonder about people who spend so much energy arguing a point without giving a reason as to what they have to gain from decreasing EV sales.
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CharlesinGA
Well-known member
Charles
Ray-IN
Well-known member
Innovative battery invention and development is happening rapidly. It could be in the not so distant future Lithium-based batteries will become obsolete. https://www.gridtential.com/
and/or https://webstore.totalbattery.com/category-s/2147.htm
Edited to add this link to solid-state battery production: BMW Is Further Making Lithium-Ion Batteries A Thing Of The Past
and/or https://webstore.totalbattery.com/category-s/2147.htm
Edited to add this link to solid-state battery production: BMW Is Further Making Lithium-Ion Batteries A Thing Of The Past
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NY_Dutch
Well-known member
How come in the EV vs ICE pollution discussions I never see the pollution generated by oil and gas refineries mentioned?
"Petroleum refining’s annual emissions of 198 MtCO2e are equivalent to the CO2 emissions from nearly 36 million homes’ annual electricity use."
A Low-Carbon Future in the US Depends on Decarbonizing Petroleum Refineries.
"Petroleum refining’s annual emissions of 198 MtCO2e are equivalent to the CO2 emissions from nearly 36 million homes’ annual electricity use."
A Low-Carbon Future in the US Depends on Decarbonizing Petroleum Refineries.
You're acting like I posted a "quote" from an article, but that wasn't what I did. I merely calculated the amounts, and compared them. I have seen other posts and articles, some of which I have posted, which show that EVs take much more "cost" in "fossil fuels" in order to "process" the materials needed to make the batteries for EVs, which have NOT been taken into consideration for this supposed "zero emissions" status for EVs, and which facts has been ignored by this Administration in it's promotion of EVs to the exclusion of ICE vehicles.
NY_Dutch
Well-known member
Since manufacturing EV batteries is a one time event for the life of the EV or battery, maybe the fair comparison should be to the lifetime of EV's or batteries compared to ICE vehicles. All manufacturing environmental costs, including ongoing operating costs should be considered. Do the life time environmental costs of one exceed the other significantly?
So, now you're accusing me of having an "agenda" against EVs?! Give me a break!
I actually have nothing against EVs. I think they may be an alternative to some ICE vehicles, except for the fact that they cannot go the same distances in the same amount of time as ICE vehicles, due to charging times, charging locations, and distance restrictions per charge versus "fill up" time with ICE vehicles. Plus, there is the fact that EVs are not as good as ICE vehicles for towing, because that drains their batteries even faster. Now, I've heard and seen articles that Tesla has a new EV alternative to semi-trucks, and they're supposed to be able to go 500 miles on a single charge, and are supposed to be able to charge faster than their cars, but I still take issue with all the "fossil fuel" cost that is necessary to create those batteries, which is being ignored in saying they are "zero emission" vehicles. It is this initial "cost" that I was referencing, which was shown in the articles I linked.
Granted, both of these issues of charging times and distance may be fixed in the near future due to further research and design improvements, but for this Administration to "dictate" that we move so rapidly to using EVs, before such infrastructure and innovations are in place, is incompetent at least, and deceptively criminal at worst. That is what I have a problem with.
However, what you're missing is this question: What is the "life" of that EV battery? According to Tesla, it's only 120,000 miles. According to these articles, it's between 100,000-200,000 miles, or 8-12 years.
This article (How Long Do Electric Car Batteries Last?) says, "Generally, electric vehicle batteries last 10-20 years, but some factors may reduce their lifespan. For instance, batteries may degrade faster in hotter climates as heat does not pair well with EVs. Additionally, charging the battery at a Level 3 station can cause the battery to overheat, as the charging process is too quick. This process can negatively affect performance and longevity."
This article (How Long Does an Electric Car Battery Last? | EV Connect — EV Connect) says similarly, "How Long Does an Electric Car Battery Last?
So the question remains: How long can you expect your EV battery to last? Fortunately for consumers, the government mandates EV manufacturers to warranty batteries for 8 years or 100,000 miles, while California extends that warranty to 10 years or 150,000 miles."
This article (Electric Car Battery Life: Everything You Need to Know) shows the same statistics, "Guesswork aside, the simplest way to judge the longevity of a battery pack is by way of the manufacturer’s warranty. Given the cost of replacing a battery pack, no automaker wants to get stuck with this bill due to the fact they overestimated the pack’s resiliency and longevity. The battery’s limited warranty, thus, provides an insight into what the manufacturer views as the typical pack’s minimum life expectancy.
All EVs sold today include a battery warranty of at least eight years and 100,000 miles. Tesla, for instance, offers an eight-year battery warranty and coverage of between 100,000–150,000 miles depending on the specific model."
Compare this to ICE vehicles, which can go well beyond their "warranty" periods, and still be viable and usable, while EVs will not, due to the batteries being dead, and unable to hold a charge any longer. The cost of replacing the parts or even engine on an ICE vehicle is significantly less than replacing the battery on an EV, which is extremely expensive, per other information in the articles above.
On top of this, though, is the cost of "recycling" the EV battery, once it's become unusable. Has that been factored into this Administration's demands? I seriously doubt it! Even Europe, where they've been using EVs for years or even decades, are still having problems with recycling EV batteries, both environmentally and due to the time consuming process, which is dangerous.
Here's a couple of articles that talks about this some:
Electric cars: What will happen to all the dead batteries?
In the next 10 years millions of old electric car batteries will need to be recycled or discarded.
www.bbc.com
Millions of electric cars are coming. What happens to all the dead batteries?
Researchers urgently seek better ways to reuse spent cells
www.science.org
Hazards ahead: Electric cars face battery recycling hurdles in Europe
European recyclers have called for changes to EU regulations on hazardous metals and waste shipment that “sometimes stand in the way” of a fully European electric car manufacturing value chain.
www.euractiv.com
This article (3 challenges en route to electric vehicle batteries driving the circular economy) says, "Between 2020 and 2021, electric vehicle (EV) sales increased by 50% to 6.6 million vehicles. By 2030, EVs could exceed 50% of total automotive sales in markets, backed by major markets’ internal combustion car phase-out regulations. As cars, trucks and buses are increasingly battery-powered and generate zero tail-pipe emissions, the increasing demand for road mobility can be met without compromising global warming and people’s health. But what happens when the battery that powers an electric vehicle is no longer fit for use? Are we resolving one challenge by creating the next big one?"
And:
"The complex set of batteries in an electric car is made of materials including cobalt, copper, lithium and nickel – scarce metals whose mining carries harsh environmental and social costs. The bulk of a new battery’s carbon emissions stem from mining and refining processes, the societal impact of which is far from being resolved. Similarly, the disposal of batteries, classified by the Basel Convention as hazardous, can create further sustainability challenges and costs."
And:
"The cost of individual battery collection is the most significant issue in battery-powered transportation today, according to Circular Cars Initiative community members. The transport of End of Life (EoL) batteries alone can amount to 41% of battery recycling costs."
And:
"Dedicated regional centres that could receive and safely store a wide variety of end-of-life batteries are only in their infancy."
The issue of "recycling" of the wasted, dead EV battery is a question that should have been answered and addressed before forcing auto makers toward EV production, and legislation to protect the public should have also been put into place, prior to enacting these broad handed demands from this Administration.
Because those who promote EVs don't also want the pollution generated by refining the materials needed to create the battery to be compared with those of ICE, as it's likely to be higher for the EV battery, which will need to be replaced, at an exorbitant cost, in about 100,000 miles. While many ICE vehicles on the road today have over 200,000 miles on them, and are still going strong. My current truck has 185,000 miles, and my wife's car has 205,000 miles on it. My uncle's truck has over 300,000 miles on it, and it's still working just fine, and not polluting the environment any more than it was new.
These are details, along with the total pollution impact of the creation of the EV battery, are what I suspect the EV industry does not want known. If it were know, then we could actually compare the two, side by side. So, why is this information not provided? Could there be some "agenda" to push EVs on us, even though it may actually impact the environment and CO2 emissions overall more? Where would that be coming from?
NY_Dutch
Well-known member
But the the ICE fuel refinery pollution is an ongoing factor for the life of the vehicle.
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