EV RVs?

[Babe2201]

I assume from that you're not retired.

-Don- Reno, NV

I am not. If I was I am still not sure I would want to waste a lot of my time at charging stations all because someone on the internet told me it was not big deal to and that I should not be in such a hurry.

 

[DonTom]

I am, but I've never considered monkey assing around at a gas station to be recreation.

Neither would I. For one example, between here and my Auburn house I need to stop at Cisco Grove for a slow AC charge on some of my Zero electric motorcycles (they don't do DC fast charging and don't have the range to make it all the way on a single charge). It's a gas station, but will you find me there? No way for more than a few minutes to get the charge started as I lock stuff up.

Look for me next to the South Yuba River at a picnic table in the shade under a large tree perhaps typing a message like this or perhaps going on a short hike in or near Gould Park.

I assume most people who stop for gas there have no clue the park is right on the other side of the freeway (has a bridge to walk across). They probably also don't care. Too much in a hurry because of habit of rushing everywhere for no legit reason (in most cases, IMAO).

I find something to do at every charge stop regardless of its location.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[old RV guy]

I assume most people who stop for gas there have no clue the park is right on the other side of the freeway (has a bridge to walk across). They probably also don't care. Too much in a hurry because of habit of rushing everywhere for no legit reason (in most cases, IMAO).

I find something to do at every charge stop regardless of its location.

-Don- Reno, NV

Empathy is the act of not viewing the world as if every other person is like me or if not should be. Most people stopping at a gas station aren't suffering from an anxiety disorder that prevents them going on a hike, most people who buy cars, unlike you, care if it depreciates at an abnormally high rate.

 

[DonTom]

Most people

The term that usually leaves me out.

To be concerned with vehicle depreciation when buying, it means you're planning on selling even before you buy. I rarely sell anything. I normally keep vehicles until it is time to junk them.

I have no reason to be concerned with vehicle depreciation.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[Mark_K5LXP]

Something I learned when I first entered the EV culture 30 years ago or whatever is there were a few distinct groups within it. There are the tech types like me that were strictly about what made them go, and liked to discuss with other tech types how to make them better, go further and faster. There were the tree huggers that didn't know a volt from an amp but were all about zero emission, oblivious to second and third order environmental effects and economics. Another group was the economists, extolling the cost of electricity vs gasoline and how cheap it was to operate an EV per mile, more or less hand waving away acquisition and opportunity costs. Not saying any of them were right or wrong based on their motivations, whatever floats your boat. But there's an element within any interest group that's militant to fanatical, believe what they believe or you're the enemy. After some time of involvement I ended up with the moniker "EV Basher" because I challenged some of the beliefs or perceptions and didn't sign on as a blind advocate for EV's as a sole transportation solution. Fast forward a quarter century or so and while technology has delivered EV's that are by every definition nice cars, their suitability still depends on what problem you're trying to solve and that problem is unique to the owner/operator. What works out great for one person could be a colossal fail for another. A prius can be a nice car but you can't haul a ton of cinder blocks home in one. In the RV realm there is no doubt an EV platform that could work for some but without a specific problem to solve it's just a different, not better fuel. Decide what the problem is first, rather than decide what the solution is and coming up with rationalizations and accommodations to make it fit. For electric RV's I'm not sure how you get around charging in the hinterlands, that alone makes any EV RV an urban/highway vehicle only. Today, with dino-juice RV's there is no such distinction. An EV RV would have a house battery to beat the band and that could be a feature, but economics and practicalities will still be a driving force for any vehicle design. Now that EV subsidies and mandates are waning I think the real value of EV's in general will settle out and we'll discover just how practical and economical they can be as a transportation solution.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

 

[Babe2201]

The term that usually leaves me out.

To be concerned with vehicle depreciation when buying, it means you're planning on selling even before you buy. I rarely sell anything. I normally keep vehicles until it is time to junk them.

I have no reason to be concerned with vehicle depreciation.

-Don- Reno, NV

You just proved the point he was making.

 

[SLOweather]

"Would ev rvs/motorhomes be a real thing yet?"

The discussion so far has seemed to be just one part the EV RV equation, getting down the road to the destination, and what that entails.

For me, the bigger part of the equation is the destination.

Many, if not most RV parks now can barely carry the load of a park full of 30 and 50 amp RV A/Cs etc on a really hot day. EV RVs will require a full, expensive rewire and charger infrastructure to accommodate a park full of EV RVs.

There's not much point in having an EV RV without a place to stay.

 

[NY_Dutch]

"Would ev rvs/motorhomes be a real thing yet?"

The discussion so far has seemed to be just one part the EV RV equation, getting down the road to the destination, and what that entails.

For me, the bigger part of the equation is the destination.

Many, if not most RV parks now can barely carry the load of a park full of 30 and 50 amp RV A/Cs etc on a really hot day. EV RVs will require a full, expensive rewire and charger infrastructure to accommodate a park full of EV RVs.

There's not much point in having an EV RV without a place to stay.

KOA is the process of adding EV charging to many locations. I'm sure others will follow.

Electric Vehicle Charging at KOA​

Camping at KOA campgrounds with an electric vehicle (EV)

At KOA, we believe in electric vehicles (EV), their potential, and the many benefits they bring to our environment. Learn how KOA is charging forward for EVs.

koa.com

 

[Firstime RVer]

Its an interesting controversy.. Many say that EV RV's are the way to go and the wave of the future, while others point out the drawbacks vs advantages of traditional RV's. It seems to me, as previously pointed out, that it all comes down to priorities. Everyone has a different set of things that are important to them. So If I prefer traditional RV's, why should an other person not prefer an EV. Clearly we very well might prefer different modes of camping, but doing what makes each of us happy is our goal. So Why knock a different preference.. Embrace the variety of choices.

Safe travels and all the best.

 

[DonTom]

EV RVs will require a full, expensive rewire and charger infrastructure to accommodate a park full of EV RVs.

One thing for sure is they will change for electricity even if only staying for one night.

But . . .

Some E-RVs (most?) will not charge up at all the entire time staying, some will want to charge as much as they can (will probably be 12K max--240 VAC (sometimes 208 VAC) at close to 48 amps) others will adjust their current for whatever fits them best. I can adjust my Tesla charge current for an AC input charge as low as 5 amps and as high as 48 amps. I expect E-RVs will have the same.

IOW, it probably will not be that big of a deal.

A decent E-RV will have several hundred KWHs of battery capacity. Use all the juice you need and then some after getting a Level 4 charge somewhere on the road. No need to connect up the juice at all when at an RV park and generators will probably have little use in E-RVs unless it is what is called an "extended range" E-RV which means it carries a big fat gasoline or diesel genny to "fast" DC charge up the main battery on the road as needed to extend the range.

Four new Level Four (a million watts plus) DCFCs are now being built in Carson City, NV they are probably already in service. No doubt these will soon get common.

I will see how well they work at 24 KW on my electric motorcycles when I get back to Reno. I assume they will go that low too.

When these get common, it will then be a good time to own an E-RV.

If I owned an E-RV I would try to get a Level Four charge on the road before staying at an RV park. Then, I would not even waste my time to plug in even if I am staying there for two weeks. Charge a 300KWH battery at the full 12 KW (if the RV park can even do that much) will take at least 25 hours of charging. Or it will take less than 0.0003 hours (IOW, a few minutes) on a Level Four charger down the road. Then you can run your 11 KW MW oven for around 25 hours total cooking stuff before your battery goes dead.

If everybody has an E-RV, the RV parks will have no need for the AC pedestals at all at each slot if it works out the way I expect in the distant future.

I assume the new E-RVs will have a safety to not let you run the battery down so low that you cannot drive it, just as they do with RV gennies and EV cars. IIRC, I cannot use the A/C and other high draw current items when the main battery is less than 20% SOC in my Tesla. It's never been anything near that low, so I have not checked.

-Don- Auburn, CA

 

[DonTom]

Electric Vehicle Charging at KOA

As I mentioned in my previous post, trying to charge up an E-RV with a KOA AC charge station which is 30-amps, (240 VAC times 30 amps=7.2KW) will take a long time to charge a 300KWH battery, even in a smaller, lighter E-RV. 300KWH battery divided by 7,200 watts=~42 hours from empty to full if nothing else is on. That will probably only work well for those staying for a month or longer.

If the RV world ever becomes all E-RVs , it would make a lot more sense for them to NOT have any electricity available at RV sites but have a few Level Four DCFCs.

Charge up Level Four and then go find your spot with all your electricity self-contained and have no need for any other juice for a long time, perhaps 300 KWHs or more. Perhaps 500 KWH will be more reasonable for larger rigs. If staying a long time, charge up level four again on the way out.

The Tesla Semi uses a 900 KWH battery, better yet.

I wonder how many watts a large RV park is capable of as is in total power. Major changes will be needed especially at the smaller RV parks that cannot total millions of watts.

-Don- Auburn, CA

 

[Lou Schneider]

Four new Level Four (a million watts plus) DCFCs are now being built in Carson City, NV they are probably already in service. No doubt these will soon get common.

Use all the juice you need and then some after getting a Level 4 charge somewhere on the road.

These numbers are getting completely ridiculous and impractical.

Just to put things in perspective, a standard 200 amp 240 volt home service can deliver up to 48 kilowatts and most of the time the actual power drawn by the house is much, much less than that (approx. 30 kWh per day or an average draw of 1.25 Kw).

So a single million watt (1000 Kw) DCFC charger uses as much power as the maximum power that can be delivered to 20 homes. Or the average power used by 800 homes.

The electrical grid is already operating at close to maximum capacity in many areas, including most of California. Short of an unprecedented expansion of the power grid, essentially doubling the size of every generating plant, transmission line and distribution substation in the next 10 years, there just isn't enough grid capacity to support this kind of growth in demand.

Which subdivision would you like to load shed when someone wants to fast charge their car?

 

[DonTom]

These numbers are getting completely ridiculous and impractical.

In some areas for now, yes. But it is already happening in other areas.

Some areas will probably stick with Level 3 for a long time. If a few of these Level Four chargers are every couple of hundred miles or so on the interstate freeways, it will probably be all that is needed for quite a while.

But check back in ten years or so.

This is only the start of it. And CC is not the first level four, but the first I have seen. And four of them.

When have we NOT needed to keep up with the increasing demand? Ever since Edison invented the light bulb, more and more juice was needed every year. This is nothing new.

Yes, ridiculous numbers and all four of the level four CC chargers can be used at the same time for a total of four million watts.

-Don- Auburn, CA

 

[Lou Schneider]

When have we NOT needed to keep up with the increasing demand? Ever since Edison invented the light bulb, more and more juice was needed every year. This is nothing new.

Westinghouse built the first AC generating plant at Niagra Falls and it's associated power grid distribution system in nearby Buffalo, NY in 1886. It's taken the intervening 129 years to grow our existing power system. Now we're proposing to double it's size to accomodate electric cars in less than 1/10th that time.

We're talking Manhattan Project or moon landing level of commitment, only on a national scale instead of a limited scope.

And that's before the environmental reviews, public hearings, etc. which now delay major construction projects for several years at a time.

Check back in ten years, indeed.

 

[DonTom]

Which subdivision would you like to load shed when someone wants to fast charge their car?

I doubt if many cars will be able to accept a million-watt charge. I have yet to see one. The most I recall of a car is 350 KW, such as the 230K$ Lotus Eletre and that is considered to be more of a SUV.

Level four can do a million watts plus, for larger EVs, such as trucks, which can accept such. That doesn't mean it won't go as low as 20KW for my motorcycles. But I assume the cables could be too heavy to be practical for a motorcycle.

I will soon find out. But CC has many Level 3 chargers I can use, so it makes no difference to me.

Besides, CC is too close to Reno to be all that useful to me, if I leave home with a full charge on any of my E-motorcycles.

-Don- Auburn, CA

 

[DonTom]

No doubt these will soon get common.

I should have specified what I meant by "common". I mean more common than it now is.

Ever couple of hundred miles or so on interstate freeways where it can be handled better will be good enough for quite a while. The level 3's can still be used for the same number of KWH as the level four, just will take at least three times as long to charge on the few vehicles that can do the million-watt charging.

Fow now, Level Four in Carson City is a big overkill.

But it will be handy when they do have E-motorhomes. This is just the start of making E-RVs more practical. When it comes to E-RVs, the charging infrastructure is more important than the E-RV itself. Nobody will want to buy one if they cannot get to where they want to go in a reasonable time.

-Don- Auburn, CA

 

[Firstime RVer]

I just cant imagine a holiday weekend trip with over 50% of the vehicles being EV's. If you think the gas lines now are long, just imagine what the lineup would be with each EV taking a half hour to charge!!
Maybe in the future charging capacity will be more available, but not for the foreseeable future from where I stand.

I like my HCV (hydrocarbon fueled vehicle)

Just my $.02 FWIW

 

[DonTom]

If you think the gas lines now are long, just imagine what the lineup would be with each EV taking a half hour to charge!!

But we will never need the same number of EV charge stations as we do gas stations. Most EV charging is done at home or work. Perhaps less than 10% charge on the road.

But of course, E-RVs will be different as they are normally used for longer trips. But there still will not be many cars charging when compared to gas stations, so still won't need that many charge stations.

Since 2018, I have only needed to charge my Tesla two times on the road. For two overnight trips in the Silicon Valley area a few months apart.

I never had a need to charge my 2022 Chevy Bolt on the road, but I did one time just to make sure it worked okay (it did).

OTOH, I often charge my electric motorcycles on the road. They have less than half than half range of my cars, which means they need to be recharged on many of my trips. I took the long way here yesterday on my 2023 Zero DSR/X around North Lake Tahoe up from the Mt. Rose Hwy. It was questionable if I could make it all the way here on my Reno charge. So I got a free charge here as I went on a short scenic high on a trail right next to the place. Read my check in notes there.

Click on the photo there to see my motorcycle.

While it says "payment required" it is not yet set up yet for such and it is still free to use. A just now checked my EV-Range Charging Payment history to be sure. But it is only a few bucks to charge up a motorcycle even when a payment is required. Always less than five bucks. So not a big deal either way.

Most of my rides on this bike cost me nothing when I need to recharge. Many other free places to charge in that area, such as the Truckee-Tahoe Airport or the Truckee Townhall.

Seems strange to me that the more expensive the electric rates get in CA, the more free to use AC charge stations get installed.

My norm is for it to cost me nothing other than the home charge I start out with, to get the hundred miles between my houses. or longer, such as yesterday. I don't always get here the same or fastest way.

EDIT: I see Plugshare is now requiring an account to be set up to view. A new change. But it is free to set up & use anyway.

-Don- Reno, NV

 

[DonTom]

I just cant imagine a holiday weekend trip with over 50% of the vehicles being EV's.

There was a time when that was a major problem with Tesla with people going from the SF area to the LA area on I-5. & CA Hwy 99. Hours of waiting on major holidays. Very unreasonable by anybody's standards.

The fix: more than 8,000 new Tesla Superchargers here in CA alone. Well spread out in 524 different CA locations. And the number is still growing.

IMO, Tesla overdid it in some areas such as here.

-Don- Auburn, CA

 

[Mark_K5LXP]

Since 2018, I have only needed to charge my Tesla two times on the road.

You are not representative of the driving public:

In 2022, the US population of people age 65 and older was 17.3%

Many people could probably make an EV work. But an EV for most doesn't solve any problem an ICE already solves at best for the same or less money. For the Joe Sixpacks out there schlepping to work every day, fetching groceries and carting kids to school and soccer games the vehicle propulsion is secondary to serving the transportation need. As a retired OF with nothing better to do than putz around with a stable of ebikes and watch your power wall state of charge from afar then e-anything is an amusing distraction. To someone that has a day job, a family and bills to pay, futzing around with the minutia of another e-device to manage is annoying to impractical. So I revert to my standard opinion on EV's - they only make sense if they solve a problem you have, even self induced ones. In my travels they are largely entertainment which puts their suitability into a minority of drivers. I'm glad you, DonTom love your EV's but you're selling something few are interested in. Not many have the same driving patterns or attention span for their care and feeding. As an EV veteran there is no doubt I could make an EV work and I still have no interest. At best it would only work as well as ICE and end up costing me more money. Something like a Tesla is arguably an excellent car and EV experience, if they aren't getting any better market penetration than they are I'm not sure what kind of EV would.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM