F350, F450, Doge 3500, Chevy 3500 etc GVWR

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Velociraptor

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Question for those of you running Ford, Chevy, and Dodge dually pickups (not chassis cab) and towing big 5ers. Have you ever wished you had more GVWR and if so what is the weight of your trailer? I can calculate numbers no problem but Im curious on peoples general feeling.

Josh
 

xrated

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I run a 2016 F350 CrewCab, 4x4, diesel Dually with a GVWR of 14,000 lbs and tow a Momentum 394 with a GVWR of 20K lbs.  I'm not fully loaded on the trailer though.  I also have an aux. tank in the bed with an electric pump for transferring fuel from the tank to the truck.  That setup adds about 600 lbs to the truck.  Payload on the truck is 5270 lbs (King Ranch version) and is the trailer were loaded to the GVWR, I would be getting pretty close to payload capacity.
 

Rob&Deryl

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One of the funny things about trucks in the 1 ton + sizes is that if you have a need for more payload than a 1 ton dually pickup, going up a chassis size such as 3500 to a 4500 Chassis cab ends up with less HP & Torque than the pickup had. Can be an unexpected surprise.
 

Boonieman

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We have a Keystone Fuzion toy hauler. Empty it is like 13,500 and GVWR is a little above 17,000. I don?t really consider that a big fiver by today?s standards. The truck handles it very well, even when the fiver is fully loaded with the Trike, fresh water tank full, and all our gear aboard. I have had Dodge and Ford diesels too, but not dually?s. They were all good trucks and pulled anything I asked them too. Each brand brought some great things to the table when I owned them, so brand tends to be a personal preference thing.
  The truck ?feels? like it would easily tow something bigger, but no, I don?t wish for more GVWR. My personal feeling is there is a physical limit to what these small trucks can handle with all these extreme weights they are being asked to handle. You can add all kinds of things to allow them to tow more, but when things ?go south? on the road and emergency maneuvers are required, the closer you are to the limit the less your odds of things working out well. There is only so much rubber on the asphalt and the trailer already outweighs the truck by a good margin. I have driven dump trucks pulling backhoes and dozers in my younger years and I always hated that ?woo-eee, white knuckle, this sure is heavy? feeling. I always match what I am towing well under the capabilities of the tow vehicle nowadays.
 

Velociraptor

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Thanks for everybodies comments.

To xrated your situation is similar to where I am at. Planned 21000 GVWR trailer (gooseneck living quarters) and it will probably run close to that loaded.  Will also have 100 gallon skid tank and toolbox in the bed. 

To lynx yeah I am well aware of the tow down rating.  The chassis cabs I been looking at have gearing such that they still have plent of capacity for a 21000 GVWR trailer.  I like e chassis cab part because Ill never have to worry about the truck sitting low or even worse the trailer working the suspension hard (ie approcaching truck GVWRwith pin weight plus truck loading)

Boonieman....I agree. When I first started my company I was looking at 40 ft fifth wheel hauling equipmnet that was pushing a F550 (30K GCWR) and the trailers GVWR. Ended up not going forward with the equipment but decided if I did just go ahead and run a semi.

My thoughts are drove a lot by my current vehicle. Previously I had two F250 diesels before I went to a Raptor. Its got 600 hP and some similar torque value that I have forgotten. It can drag anything with or without wheels but anything over 6,000 lbs and 55 its going to sway all over the road due to the soft race suspension. I knew that when I bought it but it has reaffirmed my thoughts never to be close to capacity on the truck GVWR while towing. Its embarassing borrowing my wifes Tahoe, which I equipped with max tow package, when I have to hook on to our big bumper pull.  This has pushed me to just go ahead and plan to get a F550.

The issue I have ran into is buying the F550. Banks dont want to finance a chassis cab, without two years of company financials, but will finance a F350 dually pickup all day long. Insurance is mo problem but the bank threw a wrench into the works that I didn?t expect.

Josh

 

Boonieman

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  I had a 2015 F350 SRW that I pulled the camper with prior to getting the Chevy dually. It did great. The Ford dually is rated higher than my Chevy for towing and I can?t imagine getting a fiver that it won?t comfortably tow. I wouldn?t hesitate to get a F350 dually for what you want, they are great trucks, but obviously you are experienced at hauling big loads. One thing, the F350?s have a lot more options normally available than the bigger F guys, unless you are planning to order one. Good luck with the bankers.  ?
 

Velociraptor

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Boonieman

The interesting thing is it is nearly impossible to find a F550 right now anyway in the Houston area unless I bought a service body and changed bed myself. If I go with the F550 I would have to order anyways.  For that reason I went and looked at the new Chevy 5500 last week.  Loved the look, the tilt front hood, etc but they want at least 5K more for the same truck! I used to be a Chevy guy growing up but everytime I went to buy a Duramax it has always been 4K or higher then the comparable Ford. Ive pretty much given up on buying a Chevy diesel.

Now the question is do I go with the F350 or wait on a F550. Probably going to be determined by contract signage and how long I have to get truck in possession to start work.

Josh
 

xrated

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I would probably have no fears towing a 21,000 lb trailer with my dually.....you're looking at around 4200-4300 lb of pin weight.  With me having the aux tank and adding another 600 lbs or so when the tank is full, now I would be getting real close to the 5270 payload capacity.  Keep in mind though, mine is a King Ranch and if you had the same truck in an XLT version, you would pick up another 300 lbs or so of payload capacity...maybe a bit more.  Some of the guys go ahead and get the F450 as it has a better turning radius than the F350...but it also has bigger tires and more $$$ for them when it's replacement time.
 

Velociraptor

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Xrated,

Yeah I see the 2109 350 4X4 dually is listed at 7,230 payload.  I would end up somewhere below that as I would go with a Lariat so would have most the options you have. One number Im not sure about is pin weight as the trailer I will be pulling I am going to build out after buying (ie car hauler type build out for living in during North Dakota winters and Midland, Tx summers.) Right now a lot of the weight (fresh water tanks, black and grey tanks, etc) are planned to be pretty far forward. I may end up at a higher pin weight than a normal 5er if they are full (dont plan on it but who assume the worst). Worst case I would asume the following:
7,230 Payload
-790 lbs Diesel in Aux (highest Diesel SG)
-130 lbs (my ?big boy? weight over average person lol)
-200 lbs (junk in truck)
-300lbs (tool box, chains, boomers, tie downs, jack, etc + tool box and fuel tank)
Available Pin Weight = 5,810 = 28% of 21,000 lb trialer GCWR

Hitch weight is not important as trailer will be gooseneck and not 5th.

Hmmm......what to do what to do lol.

Josh
 

Gary RV_Wizard

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The driving factor for more GVWR is trailer pin weight - the truck needs to be able to carry the pin weight (and passengers) as well as pull the trailer gross weight.  There is no particular need to go to a higher GVWR truck if the one you have has sufficient cargo capacity (Payload) to handle the pin weight + passengers and gear in the truck.  I think you can always make an argument for a more robust truck to give a firmer stance under heavy loads and poor driving conditions, but that's a tradeoff against price and daily driving vs towing.
I'd consider going up a step in truck size if my intended use was running close to its max, say within 500 lbs, but even then I'm not sure which way I would decide.
 

touchracing

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When I decided to jump up to a 6 tire truck I was originally looking at F450 because of the much larger brakes, 19.5 wheels and smaller turning circle.  The trouble is I my area new F450 come in 2 flavors.  Beer can work truck or loaded platinum.  The used market is worse.  There you find beat to death work truck or gently used platinum for almost the cost of new.
 

Gary RV_Wizard

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Given the huge cost of a new one, nice looking and nicely equipped used trucks are in high demand. More than a few folks buy them just for the macho look, so trailer-tow buyers have stiff competition.

F350's come with larger wheels these days, as much as 20", but you may want the F450 for the higher capacity payload & axle with bigger brakes to match.
 

steveblonde

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Gary RV_Wizard said:
Given the huge cost of a new one, nice looking and nicely equipped used trucks are in high demand. More than a few folks buy them just for the macho look, so trailer-tow buyers have stiff competition.

F350's come with larger wheels these days, as much as 20", but you may want the F450 for the higher capacity payload & axle with bigger brakes to match.

my 17 F350 Lariett has a payload of 5187 the exact same spec F450 had a payload of 4687 max payload available on a F350 crew is 6540 on a F450 same truck is 5320
Max TOWING available  is F350 is 31.300  on a F450 is 32.500

but the 450 has a wider front axle for better turning and only comes with 4.30 rear end my 3.55 means better mileage but decreased tow rating to 27,300
Tires on the 350 DUALLY are 17s on the 450 they are 19.5

the 2020 trucks are different again with even more pay and towing
 

Velociraptor

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I agree with all and appreciate the feedback.  A 350 size would probably work but I wouldnt know until I bought it and rigged out the trailer. Thats my biggest hangup.  My problem with the 450 ?pickup? is what everybody eludes to.....it doesn?t get you much other than turning and brakes (no more power and limited pin weight increase if any).

Touchracing?s point is the same I see in Houston. Everything is either XL or Platinum. I personally refer a ?loaded? Lariat as I like the SYNC big screen, nav, hand free,etc and other inside creature comforts.  The outside trim, chrome, fancy leather, etc of a Platinum or King Ranch I can do without. That means Im probably ordering anyway.

The one thing I do like about the pickup models.....you can get an electronic locking differential! Hands down this is absolutely the best option on my Rator. Many times I dont need 4X4 and when I do the locker has gotten me out of places in 4X4 I never thought possible.
 

steveblonde

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Velociraptor said:
I agree with all and appreciate the feedback.  A 350 size would probably work but I wouldnt know until I bought it and rigged out the trailer. Thats my biggest hangup.  My problem with the 450 ?pickup? is what everybody eludes to.....it doesn?t get you much other than turning and brakes (no more power and limited pin weight increase if any).

Touchracing?s point is the same I see in Houston. Everything is either XL or Platinum. I personally refer a ?loaded? Lariat as I like the SYNC big screen, nav, hand free,etc and other inside creature comforts.  The outside trim, chrome, fancy leather, etc of a Platinum or King Ranch I can do without. That means Im probably ordering anyway.

The one thing I do like about the pickup models.....you can get an electronic locking differential! Hands down this is absolutely the best option on my Rator. Many times I dont need 4X4 and when I do the locker has gotten me out of places in 4X4 I never thought possible.

my lariet has almost everything a platinum does - i have leather, led lights, sunroof etc etc but there are things the platinum has i hate.  1 that stupid fake chrome tailgate on a black truck it look like crap in my opinion 2 folding steps they work great in the sunshine states but in the north they freeze up and brake consistantly and i wanted the extended fixed step , the platinum has painted bumpers i hate that i like chrome bumpers on trucks painted on cars - point is keep looking and look north washington idaho etc etc there are a lot of canadian trucks shipped over the border because of our weak dollar. My friend leases neew denalli trucks on 12 month leases then sells them often with few miles they all go to border states
 

Warboar

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Velociraptor said:
I agree with all and appreciate the feedback.  A 350 size would probably work but I wouldnt know until I bought it and rigged out the trailer. Thats my biggest hangup.  My problem with the 450 ?pickup? is what everybody eludes to.....it doesn?t get you much other than turning and brakes (no more power and limited pin weight increase if any).

Touchracing?s point is the same I see in Houston. Everything is either XL or Platinum. I personally refer a ?loaded? Lariat as I like the SYNC big screen, nav, hand free,etc and other inside creature comforts.  The outside trim, chrome, fancy leather, etc of a Platinum or King Ranch I can do without. That means Im probably ordering anyway.

The one thing I do like about the pickup models.....you can get an electronic locking differential! Hands down this is absolutely the best option on my Rator. Many times I dont need 4X4 and when I do the locker has gotten me out of places in 4X4 I never thought possible.

Unless they just changed things, Ford doesn?t offer an electronic locker or any locker for that matter in a Dual rear wheeled vehicle.  There was a long discussion on this on another forum I frequent.  One of the posters purchased a F450 Lariat to tow a large 40?+ toy hauler.  He couldn?t find any aftermarket locker that would fit into rear end and a few other posters said that there isn?t one currently made for the Ford Dually.  I would think it?s because most people don?t use a dually in an ?off-road? situation that would require the use of a locker.

But i?m with you on the E locker.  I love mine and when locking it in I rarely have to lock the truck into 4x4 to get myself out of trouble.  Although I try to avoid the trouble altogether because these Super Duty trucks are not what I want to be taking out on Jeep trails.  That?s what side by sides or quads are for.
 

donn

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IMHO if a 3500 dually class wont work step up to a MDT.  Good used ones can be had with a nice fifth wheel hauler body for about what you would pay for a new 3500 dually.  The much higher towing capacity would make towing a 20,000+ fiver a easy choir. 
 

steveblonde

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Warboar said:
Unless they just changed things, Ford doesn?t offer an electronic locker or any locker for that matter in a Dual rear wheeled vehicle.  There was a long discussion on this on another forum I frequent.  One of the posters purchased a F450 Lariat to tow a large 40?+ toy hauler.  He couldn?t find any aftermarket locker that would fit into rear end and a few other posters said that there isn?t one currently made for the Ford Dually.  I would think it?s because most people don?t use a dually in an ?off-road? situation that would require the use of a locker.

But i?m with you on the E locker.  I love mine and when locking it in I rarely have to lock the truck into 4x4 to get myself out of trouble.  Although I try to avoid the trouble altogether because these Super Duty trucks are not what I want to be taking out on Jeep trails.  That?s what side by sides or quads are for.

fun fact last easter - we hooked up the trailer to the truck drove 5 feet and got the truck stuck in the snow (about 3 feetdeep) lol had to call a tow truck to winch us out 2017 f350 dually and 16000lb tow hauler stuck in the snow - we laughed for hours
 

Warboar

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steveblonde said:
fun fact last easter - we hooked up the trailer to the truck drove 5 feet and got the truck stuck in the snow (about 3 feetdeep) lol had to call a tow truck to winch us out 2017 f350 dually and 16000lb tow hauler stuck in the snow - we laughed for hours
Myself and two friends took my little Nissan hard body king cab up to the lake in Janesville, CA. They had just opened the road up. We farted around at the lake and tried to take the back way to base. Well we hit a snow patch that sunk us up past the axles and there we were for the night. Three guys over 6? in a little pick up truck. Next morning we hiked about 4 miles to the nearest house and asked for a tow. We ended up with shovels and a 4 mile walk back to the truck to dig ourselves out.

That patch of snow was about 20? by 15? or so. Now every time I see one across the road I get a laugh and send a pic to my Army buddies.
 

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