firearm question

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sandrich

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Hello,
? We're new to RV'ing and a couple times so far we have found ourselves stopped for a lunch or whatever and in a very remote place.? No others around that we were aware of.? A question of safety comes to mind and I am curious to know if other RV'ers carry a firearm or some sort of personal protection in their rigs??? Looking at the State laws for transporting firearms, most are quite stringent with shotguns being the most permissible.? Would appreciate other comments if I am just being paranoid or is this a serious concern of safety with other RV'ers in traveling to areas of which you are not familiar??? ?Thank you.? ?Sandrich
PS I'm not sure I could actually shoot someone anyway, so perhaps a slingshot would be an alternative thought!!
 

JerArdra

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sandrich said:
PS I'm not sure I could actually shoot someone anyway, so perhaps a slingshot would be an alternative thought!!

RE your above quote, don't carry a gun! 
Never open your door to anyone and also buy a can of WASP spray.  It will send a stream of VERY nasty stuff about 20 feet and it's legal everywhere even in Canada.

JerryF
 

AlGriefer

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JerArdra said:
RE your above quote, don't carry a gun!?
Never open your door to anyone and also buy a can of WASP spray.? It will send a stream of VERY nasty stuff about 20 feet and it's legal everywhere even in Canada.

JerryF

I strongly second Jerry's statement.? Never, ever, carry a gun if you're not completely trained and fully prepared to use it!

I love Jerry's wasp spray idea, too!

Al
 

sandrich

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Thank you for your replies to carrying a firearm queston.  I think I'll go with the can of wasp spray idea.  Thank's again.  Sandrich
 

Carl L

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Don't.  States can get really fussy about assault with poisonous or caustic substances.  Check it out with a lawyer familiar with self defense issues.
 

Smoky

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For an idea of the complexity of carrying a firearm, particularly handguns, on RVs and motor vehicles see this web site

packing.org

I won't go so far as saying do not carry a fire arm.  But here are the points to be concerned about if you do.

1.  It is VERY difficult to get a firearm into Canada.  Not impossible, but unlikely.  If you try you are subject to possible detailed searches and severe penalties, especially since 911.  Best to leave it behind before a border crossing.  I am sure Mexico must be tough too.

2.  As Karl points out, don't carry one unless you have considerable training.  No training is begging for disaster, in ways you wouldn't have dreamed of.

3.  Don't carry a weapon unless you maintain it religiously. 

4.  If you use the weapon (no sense in carrying one if you do not intend to use one) be sure you know when and how you can use it without going to jail yourself.  This can also very greatly from state to state.

5.  And don't carry a weapon unless you intend to use it resolutely on the bad guy.  Any indecision will lead to your own death. As ugly as this sounds, get training on how to shoot to kill.  Don't think you can get away with simply maiming someone.  A charging bad guy will have a lot of adrenalin to stop.

My brother in law is an armory section head and a weapon instructor for his local county police.  He preaches that private citizens should never consider shooting a "bad guy" outside their own home (or RV).  At night, lock your doors and turn out ALL lights when you go to bed.  This is on the theory that in the dark you know your own home better than the bad guy.  If they come inside, already be in the bedroom and behind the bed and mattress.  In a home the mattress can stop a lot of types of ammunition.  I don't know about motorhome mattresses, but I would still follow that advice.  If they make it that far back, it is likely the best place to shoot to kill if you want even a remote chance of making it through the courts.

I myself, am not an expert on these matters, but I find them interesting and am not reluctant to discuss them or listen to people discussing them.  I have a rather negative outlook where the safety of our nation is headed, and at least I want to be well-informed.

All that said, you can easily see I am sure, why so many will say do not carry a weapon aboard your RV.  In the end, you have to make a resolute choice for yourself.  Hope no one is offended by my farnk opinion.
 

Jeff

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Jerry:

You've started a run on wasp spray, I'm  on the way to get ours.

Smoky:

Your farnk opinions are always welcome.  ;)
 

John From Detroit

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Do any of you folks remember the movie SIX PACK staring Kenny Rogers?

When faced with some thugs... He grabbed the fire extinguisher and extinguished their fire of desire to mug

Worked great (Dry powder extingushier)  One of these nearly useless as a fire extinguishers comes with every rig and is 100% legal  (I have a collection of foam extinguishers 1 in front of MH, one in bedroom (need another there) one in towed, as well as a pair of power, one is 20lb
 

Smoky

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Well, frankly (again), I would not want to take on a bad guy with either wasp spray or fire extinguishers.  I guess if that was the only thing available, and the alternative was death, it might be worth a try.  But I would try hiding first.

Same principle.  If you only maim a bad guy, with pumped up adrenalin, you create unreasonable anger and the potential for your own death.

Let's hope none of us in the family are ever faced with these kinds of serious decisions.
 

Ray D

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Sandie and Rich:

Several have read your statement, in particular,
?PS I'm not sure I could actually shoot someone anyway, so perhaps - - -!!?
and advised you not to carry a gun. I agree with them. The reason for that is that the weapon is likely to be turned on you by someone who does not have your scruples.

It has been suggested that the threat level is low, camping in an RV. My opinion is that it is low, no matter how, and little mattering where you camp. For what ever reason, I have never seen much crime in camping areas. Perhaps it is out of the bad guy?s concern that someone may have a gun.

An exception to my camping opinion would be rest stops, in any state. For a nap at a rest stop, I suggest that you don?t put down any roots, and keep your keys handy. Drive out if you become suspicious. (Trust your instincts!)

I don?t have a lot of experience with RVs, and that is why I have joined this forum. But, I have a lot of camping experience. And, I have advanced combat training and am reasonably competent with firearms. I do carry a gun, most places. And, I travel quite a bit. The motorhome has made it nicer, softer, and easier.

If you change your mind, as others here have said, you need to go back to school. You need a lot of modern training! Get specific training in modern firearms, at least of the kind you intend to carry. It needs to include modern combat techniques with your type of firearm(s). And, you need some education in the firearms laws.

Outside the U.S.A. don?t carry a gun. That?s easy to learn. There are legal ways, but they aren?t worthwhile (IMHO) except for law enforcement and other professional people dealing with firearms and their issues. Those people get paid for tolerating the hassle. I don?t.

When I travel, I refresh my memory on the laws of every state I expect to be in, unless I was there, recently. Part of that ?refreshment? I find at packing.org. Some of it, I find by calling friends, I expect to visit. I comply with the laws in each state.

I also call the State Police main office, in each state, and ask for advice on recent changes or updates. Over the years, I have with one exception, gotten friendly, helpful advice from every office. The best was Wyoming - ?We don?t care how you carry your guns, nor how many you bring. Visit Wyoming, stay a while, bring your guns and bring money!? To the worst, Missouri, 11 years ago. ?Don?t bring guns to Missouri! We have no crime here. If you do, keep moving. Hope we don?t stop you as you pass through.? Missouri has loosened its laws quite a bit, since then, but I haven?t been there. Found a way around Missouri.

There are several sets of National Regulations. First, there are the Federal Laws. Then, many Federal agencies have their own set of regulations. Some are very strict - Federal Courthouses. Some strict but frequently accommodating - Military installations. Some, virtually unregulated - BLM land.

There are fifty-one sets of state laws and regulations, and The District of Columbia. (Don?t even make a tire tread mark on a D.C. street, if there?s a gun in your vehicle!)

Some states prohibit local jurisdictions from regulating firearms. (Eg: Colorado, Idaho, Utah, Wyoming.)  Many leave some local regulation to the cities and counties. (Eg: California, New York, Massachusetts, Kansas.) In a state that permits local regulation, you need to find the rules in each city or county where you plan to stop, unless you plan to stay on the interstate, going thru.

And, even in states that prohibit local regulation, you need to know if that is being challenged. Two good examples are Oklahoma, where Corporate interests are challenging and Colorado, where the State Preemption law is challenged by Denver. Who will win, in court? Who knows?! Don?t be the test case, unless you are very rich!

Lastly, in some states, the same law in one law enforcement jurisdiction will be enforced differently, in the next (possibly overlapping) jurisdiction down the road. The city police department and the county sheriff?s department, where I live are good examples. Makes me laugh!

Gosh, I hope I haven?t discouraged you! Hardly sounds worthwhile - does it?

As much as possible, I am touring the states that are reasonably friendly to my way of life. That?s 36 states at last count. After I finish what they have to offer, I will tour the other states. Then, when I have those all done, I will sell my guns and tour D.C., Canada and Mexico.

Ray D.
 

John From Detroit

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I agree with Ray, though several members of this forum do carry firearms, both long and hand guns, and don't have any problems, laws vary from state to state and the advice given professionals (Police officers) is "Leave your guns at home Bill) (Actually, that's the title of a song)

As to could I shoot someone if I had to... I have absolutely no doubt, And I'd sleep well after as well.

And that last has a lot to do with why I do not carry a gun, I don't think you should sleep well after shooting someone
 

Lowell

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Probably for every police officer that tells you to leave them at home, you can also find another one that tells you to carry one.  Like everything else, it's a personal choice.  Over the past 12 years, I have taken several CCW training courses, all conducted by police officers, and all did recommend carrying a personal defence handgun.  But whether you carry one or not, the thing they all stressed is to be aware of your surroundings. Although I have a permit, I rarely carry one.  I try to be alert and avoid getting into situations where I am uncomfortable or feel the least bit threatened. I do take one in my TT and carry it when I am hiking.  If I take my grandchildren along camping, I leave it at locked up at home.  I do take my grandchildren to the shooting range and have taught them to shoot long guns.  Shooting a couple of rounds of clay pigeons is a lot less expensive than a round of golf. And teaching a youngster to shoot takes the mystery away and give them respect for the weapon.
Jake
 

Karl

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Ray,

You make some very good and salient points. Another thing to remember is that under almost any jurisdiction, you are allowed to use an EQUAL amount of force to protect/defend yourself or others. Shooting an unarmed intruder will most likely put you in jail! Law enforcement officers are usually afforded one extra level of force, i.e. they can shoot someone who is attacking them with a knife in order to protect themselves or others. Of course, this is a generalization.

To those who say they could shoot someone and sleep well at night, I say "You have either never shot someone in defense or in battle, or if you have and can still say that, I don't want to even be in same state as you; much less have you as present company".
 

Ray D

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Karl: Thank you for the complimentary review. You are right, most likely, in your state. I don?t follow the shooting rules in every state. The equal force rule is in effect in a number of states. It is applied in different ways, in each.

For example, some states only apply it outside a persons home, and only in the case of defending a stranger. Many states have an ?adequate force? rule. Entirely different. Quite a few states are adopting the popularly called ?Make my day? rule. That?s different, too! That?s the rule where I live. Florida was the first to have it, and they enhanced it, recently.

Many states have a ?retreat? rule. That is, you can?t use deadly force unless you have retreated to the last chance you have. Then, you can defend yourself. That rule is losing favor.

Most states make some exception to the rules, in one?s own home. In the states I know about, a home includes an RV, or a tent, for that matter.  In my state, for example, a stranger entering a person?s home ?tumultuously? is fair game, armed or not. Courts have ruled that a ?stealthy entry? qualifies as ?tumultuously.? Go figure!

Back to the ?equal force? issue. A young man, half my age, a foot taller in excellent physical condition entered my home in the middle of the night, tumultuously. I responded with a gun. He made a mistake and wound up still unconscious when the police got there. I didn?t shoot him. I was 60, at the time, disabled. A sergeant read me the riot act, for not shooting on sight! What is equal force?

If we are both unarmed, are we equal? Is one on one, always fair? The courts generally say no.    One can factor in age, size, mental condition, gender and a number of other issues. And, shooting a knife wielding subject in most jurisdictions is equal force. Both are lethal weapons. In fact, the guy with the knife may have an advantage in close quarters, like a room in an average house.

Lastly, as to how well one sleeps. People who have through no fault of their own, often in service of their country, seen a lot of violence and death, sometimes become jaded. (Sorry, I didn?t invent the word.) They learn to sleep under the most violent conditions. I won?t comment for someone else, but I am a bit jaded. I loath violence and the results of it, hate it actually, but it has little effect other than loathing and disgust. I sleep just fine. I can understand making a decision to not carry a weapon out of an interest in just not being involved in that kind of violence, anymore.

In my case, I made different decision. I try to anticipate unpleasantness, and avoid it. So far, I have been successful for quite a while. That said, if I am unable to avoid it I will deal with it. Neither policy is righter or wronger than the other. I know more than a few who have made each of those decisions in response to what they have seen in their lives. We don?t argue the solution. If it works for you, that?s great!

Thank you

Ray D
 

Smoky

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I cannot do anything but scratch my head at the equal force rules.  It has to be a very difficult thing to define.  And worse, when violence occurs, there is little time to figure out how to apply equal force.  And that has to be about the worst self defense strategy in the world.  The whole idea behind self defense is to find an edge and use unequal force.

That said, our laws are based on many things, not much of which is logic.  It is perfectly possible for someone to defend themselves against a real and deadly threat, and then end up in jail because of the inadequacy of laws.  Again, that is why so many people chose not to own firearms, particularly pistols.
 

Karl

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Ray and Smoky,

Recall that I said it was a generalization, and perhaps I should have used the term 'adequate force'. Specific cases must be handled on an individual basis. The popular defense catch-phrase is "I felt my life was in danger." This overrides the case where, for example, a physically superior person threatens bodily harm to a weak, old man. By threatens, I mean by action; not just words. In such a case, a D.A. would be hard pressed to prosecute the old mand for using whatever means was necessary for the old man to defend his life.

One thing I find disturbing about some films and t.v. shows is that they show someone in law enforcement shooting at a fleeing suspect - on foot or in a car. That clearly flies in the face of law which says that the use of deadly force is no longer warranted when the threat of deadly force has been removed. That's not to say the officer can't shoot at a suspect who's running away but firing over his shoulder or shooting out the window of a fleeing car. 

One thing is certain - not all laws are fair or fairly applied, and can vary greatly from one jurisdiction to another; even from one police officer, district attorney, or judge to another within the same jurisdiction. In the urgency of the moment, you must make a quick  and hopefully correct decision as to your course of action, and be prepared to live with the consequences.

I will not comment further on this topic for a couple of reasons. One, it's all been said before and discussed ad infinitum; and two, the way I would handle any given situation is strictly a personal decision, and others must decide for themselves to own or not own a firearm, and under what circumstances they would actually use one.

My hope is that none of us is ever in a situation which requires the use of force - deadly or otherwise, but if we are, we make the right choice and use the least amount of force necessary to resolve it. Sometimes that may mean simply walking or running from it. That's not cowardly; it's smart.           
 

John From Detroit

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Jake said:
Probably for every police officer that tells you to leave them at home, you can also find another one that tells you to carry one.  Like everything else, it's a personal choice

I'm sorry Jake, perhaps I was a bit non-specific, but it seems you misunderstood what I was saying a bit.

To be more specific, the advice usually given to police officers traveling outside their own state is to leave their guns at home or, at the very least, secure them according to transport laws.

In some cases this even applies to marked police cars crossing state lines.  Though I know of no case where a uniformed police officer in a marked patrol vehicle has EVER had a problem,  Laws vary enough from state to state that when a police office is traveling for pleasure, not on official business, most departments suggest he not carry.

This has nothing to do with should YOU carry (at least in the state your have permits for)

I do agree, there are advantages to being armed.  Short story,  Poor deputy sheriff in the story had to go back to the station for a new uniform (Seems the one he was wearing got kind of dirty)

They got a call of a man with a gun

Arriving on the scene they find an elderly couple 80s or 90s, with guns, and some young (Teenage) punks kneeling on the ground begging Grandma and Grandpa not to shoot them  Seems the young punks and crossed a state line, from a tight gun control state to an open carry state, with the intent of strong-arming a couple of senior citizens and taking what little they had.

Poor deputy fell down and got his uniform all dirty (From laughing too hard at the sight)

Even poorer punks... Got free room and board for an extended period as guests of the State's department of corrections
 

Smoky

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Karl:

I do not think you need to stop discussing this subject if you have more to add.  I find your comments on firearms and self defense to be VERY cogent and educational.

"shows is that they show someone in law enforcement shooting at a fleeing suspect - on foot or in a car. That clearly flies in the face of law which says that the use of deadly force is no longer warranted when the threat of deadly force has been removed."

I agree with the above, and it shows the stupidity of a person who has succeeded in removing a threat and then does not control his own emotions and actions.

"Sometimes that may mean simply walking or running from it. That's not cowardly; it's smart. "     

Again, well said.  I think that statement is the very essence of self protection in the home.  Once you are in your home, there is no further place you can walk to to get away from the threat.     



 
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