FMCA-Minot Seminar Reportt

[BernieD]

We left Minot Friday after spending a week at the
fairgrounds for the FMCA semi-annual convention. For the most part,
the weather was cooperative tho it warmed up to the low 90s late in
the program. Rain was only an issue on Wednesday causing some mud
holes and spreading a lot of mud around, but the lots dried out by
Friday morning and there were no problems exiting. 3,025 family
member coaches were parked in lots of lots spread all over the
place. I would guess that those parked in some of the outlying
areas had a transportation problem.

Some interesting comments made at the Cummins seminar by Mark
Conover, the Cummins rep.

He again repeated his position that horsepower is the critical
factor to get you up hills, not torque. He also said not to worry
about lugging the engine unless you are looking for an award for
being first up the hill. Maximum torque is developed at speeds
lower than the Allison shift points so there is no need to
downshift manually.

He reiterated the Cummins position that *ALL* filters on electronic
engines are to be installed dry. The tolerances on those engines is
too tight to risk any potential contamination from pre-filling the
filters. The engines are designed to evacuate air and prime using
the ignition system. Mechanical engines should be pre-filled since
the tolerances are much larger and they don't have the activation
systems.

Synthetic oils are approved for use in the engines but oil change
intervals cannot be extended when using them.

Cummins position on long term storage (90 days or more) is to just
fill the gas tank before storage and change the oil when taking the
vehicle out of storage. No starting, no moving, no nothing. The oil
change after is to remove the contaminants that accumulate during
storage. Other than maybe using a fungicide in a high exposure area
during storage, no additives are needed. No additives are needed
under normal usage. The Spartan position is to move the coach
25-40' forward and back every 2-4 weeks and get the engine up to
operating temperature. Cummins recommendation is based on best for
the engine, Spartan's is based on best for the chassis. You pay
your money and take your choice.

 

[Ron]

I wish Cummins would get all their people on the same page.  For fuel filter replacement most Ciummins people seem to agree not filling fuel filters prior to installation on the newer electronic engines.  However, for oil filters the Cummins folks seem to disagree at about 3 to 1 in favor of filling oil filters with oil prior to installation.  I tend to side with  the majority on the pre-charging of the oil filters.  I have noted that every time I have had an oil change at a Cummins shop and was able to observe the operation they filled the oil filter prior to installation.

Thanks for the report.

You guys going to be able to stop back by Sam's Camp on your way back?

 

[BernieD]

Ron

The mechanics in the shops are not always on the same page as the factory positions. Cummins emphatically said; "do not pre-charge" on electronic engines. If there is a failure due to contamination, it will void your warranty if you pre-charged. With the new engines there is no need to pre-charge.

Sorry we'll have to by-pass Sam's Camp on our return. Not enough time for the detour and stay over. Thanks for the invite, but can't afford your new rates 

 

[Ron]

I realize the shops may not be the best place for advise.  However, call Cummins direct and ask the question.  You will get conflicting answers there to unless you happen to talk to the same person twice.

 

[blueblood]

I realize the shops may not be the best place for advise.? However, call Cummins direct and ask the question.? You will get conflicting answers there to unless you happen to talk to the same person twice.

I agree that it happens and is frustrating. The phones are staffed by retirees as much as possible both as a way to give them a way to stay busy and for Cummins to use their expertise. There knowledge is supplemented by the usual computer databases and also detailed explanations are available on a wide variety of subjects which they can access instantly. They may not use the available tool or may give an answer which they feel is more useful than that provided.

I have seen this same dynamic on service trucks. The old guys will try the official line a couple of times and if it don't work they go to their way. The fuel filter is a good example. They know its not supposed to be filled and the system will prime it and they initially try it that way. If the engine coughs and won't start, they'll retreat to their truck and pull out a tool that none of the younger mechanics have in their bag of tricks. It a small brass hand pump about 3/4 inch in diameter and maybe four inches long. They remove the fuel line from the filter - insert the pump on to end of hose and pump away until fuel starts to come and then they fill the filter.

Also, another factor is that in many cases the presenters at seminars are not really Cummins factory people but Distributors personnel. They usually have very little RV experience and some times give answers that were right for a genset or truck application but wrong for RV. I have called these mistakes to their attention after the presentation and they invariably will admit little or nor RV experience.

 

[blueblood]

Some interesting comments made at the Cummins seminar by Mark
Conover, the Cummins rep.

He again repeated his position that horsepower is the critical
factor to get you up hills, not torque. He also said not to worry
about lugging the engine unless you are looking for an award for
being first up the hill. Maximum torque is developed at speeds
lower than the Allison shift points so there is no need to
downshift manually.

Bernie - I'm not sure what he said verbally ( he made a couple of slips in an otherwise very good presentation) but his slides had it right and torque is the more important factor.

If you have a copy of presentation in hand, look at the slide -"What is more important" An arrow points to Torque and the comment at bottom is to "Remember :"Where there's Torque there's Horsepower !"  He made this same point in an earlier slide titled "TORQUE"
He very early on made the same kind of distinction by saying that HP was MEASURE of capability to do work and the rate of doing work and torque was the energy (work) produced by an engine.


Another important point he made very well was that not all HP's are equivalent in performance. He was able to avoid getting into CAT vs Cummins by using the old ISC 350 vs the new ISL350. The torque curve on the latter gives better HP curve characteristics. 

 

[BernieD]

Leo

This is the second time that I've heard him in this discussion at a seminar. He emphatically stated both times that hp was more important than torque in getting up a hill. I can't get into the specifics now but that was his position both times.

 

[blueblood]

Leo

This is the second time that I've heard him in this discussion at a seminar. He emphatically stated both times that hp was more important than torque in getting up a hill. I can't get into the specifics now but that was his position both times.

I thiink he is referring to the measure of capability but rather than guess I've sent him an e-mail and will await his response which I'll pass along.

Here is his explanation.

What I've attempted to convey is (1) HP in the operating range .... not
advertized horsepower .... is what is critical to determine performance.
And (2) the torque developed in the operating range determines how much HP
is available ... thus my comment, "Where there is torque there's
Horsepower".  I don't want anybody to be confused, in my mind torque is
KING.

Horsepower ... which is not produced but simply a measurement of capability
... is the rate of doing work.  If you want to do work faster ... ie climb
hills faster or maintain vehicle speed in rolling terrain ... the more
horsepower available at the engine speed dictated by the chassis gearing,
the fast the vehicle will climb the hill.  The amount of HP available is
directly related to the amount of torque produced at that specific engine
speed.

I would like for people to understand the engine performance curves can
help them compare performance characteristics of engines.  I also want
people to understand they will benefit from knowing the operating speed
range of the engine and motorhome combination.  If they know what speed the
engine will be running at specific road speeds the engine's performance
curve will show how much torque and horsepower will be available.

Hope this helps .... Mark.

 

[BernieD]

Leo

That's what I love about those presentations, you can't rely on them being consistent from one to the next. The first time I heard him discuss this I remember him emphatically going thru all of the variables and then saying HP was more important. He seems to be backing off on that now. I'll accept torque  ;D

 

[Tom]

Leo

He's obviously saying the same thing you'd told us numerous times. Unfortunately, it's all too easy to have a slip of the tongue in a presentation and it's very tough to unsay something even if one realizes the slip was made. More times than I can count, I've been wrong at the top of my voice  ;D

I think that Bernie's report and your feedback to the speaker might help avoid confusion at future seminars.

 

[blueblood]

I sent the Cummins presentation in pdf to Tom this morning for posting. All items are there except a map of Coach Care facilites which could not be converted. The size is fairly large at 3Mbytes and is in v7.

 

[Tom]

Thanks Leo. The file is now in the forum library. Click the Library button above, select Tech topics and click Cummins Engines presentation. (I'll gladly change the title to something more creative).

Thanks for all your help coordinating with Cummins and having the file converted. It's much appreciated.