Freeze-12 DON'T USE IT

[detectivedrew]

Just spoke to a local shop (in business 50 years and they have a reputation of honesty). Their specialty is cooling and heating; dash ac systems, radiators, water pumps etc...... Freeze-12 was suggested to me by a forum member (they are not aware of its affects) instead of paying $500.00 for a dash ac conversion to 134a.  STAY AWAY FROM freeze-12!  Freeze-12 is a combination of freons that WILL DESTROY your ac system.  Technically I am not sure how it destroys the system, something with the ac dryer and pistons in the compressor, but I believe the local shop. Yes, I am making some bold statements and there is NO guarantee that my claims are correct. Please take or leave my suggestions with good intent.  I AM NOT CLAIMING THAT MY STATEMENTS ARE 100% factual.  Weigh your options with this in mind.  Just trying to save someone from the POSSIBILITY of ruining their r-12 dash ac system. I will not touch the stuff.  50 years of honest experience is enough to make me stay away.

 

[Ned]

If Freeze-12 is so destructive, why is it available?  Sounds like a shop with vested interest in a different product.

 

[DiGiacomo]

"The EPA only allows certified shops to posses and use 134a"

hmmmm......i have a few cans in my uncertified shop........am i going to jail... ???

i'm sure he meant "r 12" .........And I am not real sure if a license would put a can of that [r12] in your hand at this time??

 

[Jammer]

Freeze-12 is a blend of 80% r-134a and 20% r-142b.  It has been discontinued this year, from what I understand.

R-12 supplies have become plentiful because demand has dried up since most R-12 equipped cars are no longer on the road.  Recovery and recycling programs at auto salvage operations, and appliance salvage operations, have produced more R-12 than the industry will probably ever need.

The benefit of Freeze-12 was supposed to be better compatibility with the mineral oil lubricant typically used in R-12 systems.  This oil is not soluble in R-134a.  The original retrofitting advice for switching a system from R-12 to R-134a was to remove the existing lubricant, replace it with ester-based lubricant (more readily miscible with R-134a), replace seals, accumulator, and receiver/dryer (if present), evacuate and recharge.

The idea with Freeze-12 was that the existing lubricant could be used, eliminating the need for such extensive service.

After a couple of years most service shops found that just adding ester oil, replacing the accumulator, and leaving any remaining mineral oil in place provided acceptable performance, in practice.

I had a couple of farm tractors and a van that had R-12 systems that required service, and I had the shop use R-12 even though it was, at that time, expensive.  Then prices came down, and I think in retrospect it was a wise choice.

I don't think that Freeze-12 poses much of a threat to A/C system components, but then again, there's not much reason to use it either.  Depending on your goals either a fuller retrofit with R-134a or just continued use of R-12 make more sense.

 

[Jammer]

"The EPA only allows certified shops to posses and use 134a"

hmmmm......i have a few cans in my uncertified shop........am i going to jail... ???

i'm sure he meant "r 12" .........And I am not real sure if a license would put a can of that [r12] in your hand at this time??

Once you pass an online test and pay the certification fee ($40 I believe) you can buy all you want at your local auto parts place.  The prices are running right around the same as R-134a right now.

 

[denmarc]

I can't attest to the quality of Freeze-12, although I know it is supplied by a Canadian company as an aftermarket product and does not have the best reputation.  Many people have tried to replace the R-12/R-22/R-134A systems without replacing the receiver/dryer which has a desiccant specific to that systems design.  Freeze-12's blend seems to be not compatible and moisture results in the A/C system, resulting in a large repair bill.  I have also heard R-409A was being used as a direct replacement for R-12.  But most garages were not reclaiming properly and taking advantage of customer confusion for retrofitting.

R-134A can be purchased by any "Joe Blow" at the nearest auto parts store down their street.  No license required.  Just the adaptors or refill kits available from the same store.  R-12 is a different issue now days.  A license is required to purchase/use R-12.  It is no longer available as an "over the counter" item anywhere.

There is truth to the statement made by detectivedrew.  But I also believe the statement about R-134A is just a misunderstanding.  Or, the repair shop's 50 year reputation is in question.  Who knows?

 

[catblaster]

Jammer, I got my universal EPA license probably around 1997. Funny thing that I can buy a railroad car full of r-12 but my local auto shop turned me down for a small can of it. Do auto shops require a different license because I thought a universal covered all of it.  Any ideas??  Will

 

[detectivedrew]

Just trying to help people. Use r-12 use 134. I don't claim to have any expertise.

P.S. Any forum moderator that feels my statement is too bold, erase it- thanks

 

[detectivedrew]

Denmarc,

What you stated is what the repair shop told me. Thanks for adding expertise to the conversation.

 

[rls7201]

Jammer, I got my universal EPA license probably around 1997. Funny thing that I can buy a railroad car full of r-12 but my local auto shop turned me down for a small can of it. Do auto shops require a different license because I thought a universal covered all of it.  Any ideas??  Will

Not Jammer but I also have my universal EPA license. The car mechanics have a R12 license only and the auto parts guys know what that license looks like. They don't have a clue what privileges you universal license grants you. I finally convinced Oreilly Auto to sell R12 to me.

Richard

 

[travellerz71]

I have used freeze 12 in walk in coolers and commercial refrigerators since it became available with no refrigerant related problems.  I would think if there were a problem with this blend it would have shown up by now. I can only assume that it was used incorrectly or in a system with problems that would have occured with  any refrigerant.  Just my opinion  I have only been doing this since 1972.

 

[Icemaker]

Not Jammer but I also have my universal EPA license. The car mechanics have a R12 license only and the auto parts guys know what that license looks like. They don't have a clue what privileges you universal license grants you. I finally convinced Oreilly Auto to sell R12 to me.

Richard

Not only do I have the universal EPA CFC license..I am also a certified instructor and proctor for same test..
Richard is absolutely correct..most auto parts stores don't understand that the universal license allows.
There are  differences in auto only license and the universal, which covers 3 separate licenses, which is refereed to as:
        CFC Certification: Title VI - U.S.Code  Clean Air Act - 1990
        Section 608 (often called 'Universal' License...all parts)
        Section 609 (Automotive)

Being an auto parts supplier they are instructed/taught to honor the "609" license..
Auto Zone locally won't sell to me and Advanced Auto will... or I can go to a wholesale refrigeration house and purchase any refrigerant and quantity I have the money for .. but the small cans aren't usually sold there.

As for denmarc's post "I can't attest to the quality of Freeze-12, although I know it is supplied by a Canadian company as an aftermarket product and does not have the best reputation.  Many people have tried to replace the R-12/R-22/R-134A systems without replacing the receiver/dryer which has a desiccant specific to that systems design.  Freeze-12's blend seems to be not compatible and moisture results in the A/C system, resulting in a large repair bill.  I have also heard R-409A was being used as a direct replacement for R-12.  But most garages were not reclaiming properly and taking advantage of customer confusion for retrofitting.

R-134A can be purchased by any "Joe Blow" at the nearest auto parts store down their street.  No license required.  Just the adaptors or refill kits available from the same store.  R-12 is a different issue now days.  A license is required to purchase/use R-12.  It is no longer available as an "over the counter" item anywhere."
I personally have not used [Freeze-12] but have used many other blends in different situations and feel he is spot on but believe that the biggest problems arise because of improper system preparation for the retrofit or misapplication of the refrigerant. They have different numbers, and names, because they are designed to function in different environments ie. air-conditioning, freezers, etc.


Sorry if I got carried away.

George

 

[detectivedrew]

"misapplication of the refrigerant. They have different numbers, and names, because they are designed to function in different environments ie. air-conditioning, freezers, etc."

Just repeating what the shop told me...misapplication of the refrigerant sounds more precise, they did not choose to describe the situation to me the same way but the same end result.