House battery recommendations

Regarding low temp performance, you can use lithium batteries down to -10 or -20F. But you can’t really charge them below 32F. Note that is the temperature where the batteries are located, not the the external temperature. To charge below 32F, just get the self-heating versions. That’s what we did. We live in Iowa, and we travel south when it is well below freezing, but we don’t have any issues. And I strongly agree with all the advantages previous identified - light weight, fast charging, more amps/square inch, level discharge, no maintenance. Really a great type of batteries for RVs.
 
Professor David said:
Regarding Li batteries, I've heard they don't like low temps...is this correct?
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With regards to low temps, actually below 32 degrees, they operate just fine but require heating to charge. Many are equipped with internal heating that kicks in when the core temperature reaches the vicinity of 35 or so degrees.
 
Kevin Means said:
I would not hesitate to discharge our lithium batteries to 20% SOC repeatedly, but I would never repeatedly discharge lead-acid batteries to those levels. Repeated deep discharges of lead-acid batteries will shorten their lives considerably, especially if they're not fully recharged in short order. That's not even a concern with lithium batteries.
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Depth of discharge has the same impact on Li as lead. Meaning, the deeper you discharge them, the fewer cycles you get. Primary difference is Li has 5x or so the number of cycles to give, and Li doesn't suffer from use or storage at partial states of discharge. Additionally Li has built in protections where lead doesn't, and it's up to the operator to use them within their spec'd limits. Operator error is where many LA batteries meet their demise, not their depth of discharge.

Given the care and feeding constraints of LA, Li is a compelling choice. They may not be plug and play in all applications but some re-engineering and accommodation could take a lot of the guesswork out of running house batteries.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM
 
Gizmo1137 said:
No question lithium is the way to go for several reasons. Reasons to consider is they charge faster than lead acid and AGM, a factor to consider when boondocking. A second reason, and a big one, is they provide a constant 12v until dead, while lead acid and AGM batteries tend to have a drop in voltage as used, so if the voltage drops below 12v before getting a charge, that plays havoc with the 12v equipment since they will have to work harder, creates more heat so equipment becomes more prone to failure and reduced life of the equipment. Another reason is with lead acid and AGM batteries should not operate below 50% charge, as it will lead to premature failure, so effectively you are only getting half the reported amp hours while lithium can be used to 90-100% of capacity before charging.
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The most concise and compelling post on why I should serious consider this even though I'm quite adept at maintaining lead acid batteries for prolonged use and am satisfied with what I have.

Well done.
 
Except Gizmo's comments are innacurate, so if you're looking for insight that wouldn't be the info I'd choose. There's no doubt Li is better than LA in most respects so why misrepresent them.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM
 
Mark_K5LXP said:
Except Gizmo's comments are innacurate, so if you're looking for insight that wouldn't be the info I'd choose. There's no doubt Li is better than LA in most respects so why misrepresent them.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM
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This is not a helpful response without giving reasons. So what do you find mis represented?
 
Gizmo1137 said:
what do you find mis represented?
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Sure, in order of appearance:

if the voltage drops below 12v before getting a charge, that plays havoc with the 12v equipment since they will have to work harder,

Not universally true. 12V equipment designated for RV use especially when originally equipped with lead acid batteries is spec'd for and operates over the entire terminal voltage range of these batteries or even beyond. It may be that some equipment operates more optimally at higher terminal voltages but to say "havoc" results is incorrect. My own RV as an example, everything from the furnace to lighting, inverter to pumps all operate perfectly normally from 100% to 0% state of charge both by specification and in actual operation. That's not to say "all" equipment one might find in an RV is spec'd for and operates over the range but that's not a battery problem, it's an equipment problem. One can choose to mitigate it by replacing the house battery with one having an elevated terminal voltage but another mitigation would be to choose equipment that operates with the battery that's there. Winnebago managed to build RV's this way for literally decades.


lead acid and AGM batteries should not operate below 50% charge, as it will lead to premature failure,

Patently false. Deep cycle lead acid batteries are spec'd to operate over their full capacity range, 0% to 100%. There is no discharge point above 0% SOC where failure occurs. At best you might find a footnote in an application guide of an "optimum" discharge point or "for best results" but nowhere will you see "failure" cited. The 50% Rule is a myth. One can choose to operate between any arbitrary discharge points for any number of logistical or application specific reasons but "failure" isn't one of them.


while lithium can be used to 90-100% of capacity before charging

Lithium has the same depth of discharge to cycle life curve as lead acid. Meaning, the deeper you discharge a lithium battery, the fewer cycles it will deliver. The practical difference is that with Li having 5x or more the cycle life of LA, one can discharge with impunity - few users will ever cycle out a Li battery. It really doesn't matter how hard you cycle it, it'll die of age before wear. Given the typical RV'er battery usage, the same exact premise can be applied to LA - few users ever come close to cycling out a LA battery, so why would depth of discharge matter there either? Answer, it doesn't.

Back to my earlier comments, Li outperforms LA in most every respect and now compared to SLA prices, one would have to have a specific reason to select SLA over a similarly sized Li. Given the clear performance and longevity benefits of Li over LA there's no need to make LA look any worse than it already does. The argument is more convincing when actual facts and data are used.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM
 
Mark_K5LXP said:
Sure, in order of appearance:

if the voltage drops below 12v before getting a charge, that plays havoc with the 12v equipment since they will have to work harder,

Not universally true. 12V equipment designated for RV use especially when originally equipped with lead acid batteries is spec'd for and operates over the entire terminal voltage range of these batteries or even beyond. It may be that some equipment operates more optimally at higher terminal voltages but to say "havoc" results is incorrect. My own RV as an example, everything from the furnace to lighting, inverter to pumps all operate perfectly normally from 100% to 0% state of charge both by specification and in actual operation. That's not to say "all" equipment one might find in an RV is spec'd for and operates over the range but that's not a battery problem, it's an equipment problem. One can choose to mitigate it by replacing the house battery with one having an elevated terminal voltage but another mitigation would be to choose equipment that operates with the battery that's there. Winnebago managed to build RV's this way for literally decades.


lead acid and AGM batteries should not operate below 50% charge, as it will lead to premature failure,

Patently false. Deep cycle lead acid batteries are spec'd to operate over their full capacity range, 0% to 100%. There is no discharge point above 0% SOC where failure occurs. At best you might find a footnote in an application guide of an "optimum" discharge point or "for best results" but nowhere will you see "failure" cited. The 50% Rule is a myth. One can choose to operate between any arbitrary discharge points for any number of logistical or application specific reasons but "failure" isn't one of them.


while lithium can be used to 90-100% of capacity before charging

Lithium has the same depth of discharge to cycle life curve as lead acid. Meaning, the deeper you discharge a lithium battery, the fewer cycles it will deliver. The practical difference is that with Li having 5x or more the cycle life of LA, one can discharge with impunity - few users will ever cycle out a Li battery. It really doesn't matter how hard you cycle it, it'll die of age before wear. Given the typical RV'er battery usage, the same exact premise can be applied to LA - few users ever come close to cycling out a LA battery, so why would depth of discharge matter there either? Answer, it doesn't.

Back to my earlier comments, Li outperforms LA in most every respect and now compared to SLA prices, one would have to have a specific reason to select SLA over a similarly sized Li. Given the clear performance and longevity benefits of Li over LA there's no need to make LA look any worse than it already does. The argument is more convincing when actual facts and data are used.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM
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Not true. Become informed


 
So a guy on utoob parroting battery generalities and in some instances incorrect information is the final word? General info is fine, not everyone wants to be an EE just to go camping. The first video has blatant lies, the other two had technical errors. I'll stick to manufacturer data sheets and industry white papers and not marketing blather or clickbait. If you want to have a discussion about the videos and my supporting evidence we can do that, or have any specific information refuting my points I'd be interested to see it.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM
 
Mark_K5LXP said:
So a guy on utoob parroting battery generalities and in some instances incorrect information is the final word? General info is fine, not everyone wants to be an EE just to go camping. The first video has blatant lies, the other two had technical errors. I'll stick to manufacturer data sheets and industry white papers and not marketing blather or clickbait. If you want to have a discussion about the videos and my supporting evidence we can do that, or have any specific information refuting my points I'd be interested to see it.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM
Click to expand...

So you are more of an authority over a talented and successful electronic engineer (first video) and also a RV master tech who operates the RVTraining Academy (second video)? My original reply and what is pointed out in these videos is commonly understood by industry experts, including the first two, but not limited to them. Nuff said.
 
Tom_M1 said:
Here's a site that searches Amazon for best prices:
LiFePO4 Battery Finder
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Thanks. Didn't realize there were so many brands. The site is amazing but overwhelming with no apparent way to do much filtering. I've settled on getting Li.

Looking for the following features:
~100 ah
heating below 35 degrees
bluetooth (not sure this is necessary but could be useful to monitor levels?).
Alternator safe operation
Warranty...full replacement over 5 years.
Might be other things? Let me know your opinion.

Renogy, Epoch, LiTime and SOK brands keep coming with higher ratings between 250 to 500 bucks. Battle Born seem good but the price is high at about 1K.

Any other brands with the features above that I should consider?
 
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