HWH hydraulic cylinder repairs

[John Canfield]

No worries, thanks for the follow-up John. I know it's a good feeling to get the hydraulic issues resolved.

As far as their reason for not selling seal kits - LOL. Rebuilding hydraulic cylinders is an extremely common practice. I can't think of a reason why their cylinders would be so unique that only a specialist could do the work.

Hydraulic ramblings: I bought a seal kit for the leaking double action hydraulic steering cylinder on my JLG boom lift; my buddy and I tried for about 30 minutes to remove the end cap. No joy. So I fabricated a tool and tried, nope. Bought a special tool, no way. There is a shop in the area but I was afraid they would take a long time to rebuild the cylinder. Can't have the lift out of service for weeks.

A replacement cylinder is $2200

 

[Mark_K5LXP]

Generally I'm OK with unique/special/sole source if that solution offers a benefit. I'm not seeing it with these HWH cylinders - they fail like anyone else's and there's only a few blessed places that fix them? The takeaway I'm getting from this thread is I have better things to do than drive across the country to get a unicorn cylinder rebuilt. If indeed they are that specialized or unique, I just might be money, time and trouble ahead to refit those cylinders with something more standard and available. Yes, it would be a PITA up front but it's in my driveway on my terms, and reduces the chances of being stuck in a campground paying mobile techs to patch up my stuff while I'm on a trip and paying ransom to get a product serviced.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

 

[John Stephens]

No worries, thanks for the follow-up John. I know it's a good feeling to get the hydraulic issues resolved.

As far as their reason for not selling seal kits - LOL. Rebuilding hydraulic cylinders is an extremely common practice. I can't think of a reason why their cylinders would be so unique that only a specialist could do the work.

Hydraulic ramblings: I bought a seal kit for the leaking double action hydraulic steering cylinder on my JLG boom lift; my buddy and I tried for about 30 minutes to remove the end cap. No joy. So I fabricated a tool and tried, nope. Bought a special tool, no way. There is a shop in the area but I was afraid they would take a long time to rebuild the cylinder. Can't have the lift out of service for weeks.

A replacement cylinder is $2200

Normally, I would think a company is playing games when they say they are the only ones who can rebuild a product, and I have had several mechanics tell me there are only two or three seal manufacturers in the entire country, so HWH must be getting their seals from one of them. On the flip side, HWH says they fabricate their own seals, and no one else's will work satisfactorily. Mechanics will claim that is BS, but facts speak for themselves. My mechanic rebuilt these cylinders three times with three different seals, and three out of six cylinders blew within six months. That's not a good record, and leads credence to what HWH claims. But it still bothers me that they won't sell and ship their rebuild kits with seals to other mechanics, and makes me think they are only trying to get additional business. The good thing about driving up there and letting them do the work is that this is something I can't do myself, and their labor rate is quite reasonable compared to the rates down here in SW Florida. I'm talking half the cost. And, while my mechanic charged me three hours labor per cylinder, HWH charged me 3.5 hours for three cylinders and one jack. They are very fair with their charges, knowing people are driving from across the country to have them do the work.

Something else that I found interesting on this visit was that prior to the last rebuild, the main slide was having issues with the back of it appearing to drag when being retracted. The last time I used the slide, I got worried because there was a cracking sound when trying to go back in. The rear also retracted later than the front which made me think it was hanging up on something. I assumed the glide plate may be catching on the flooring because the slide was obviously sitting lower than it should. You could tell from the decals and also the trim rail on top of the basement doors. I asked the service advisor if he would adjust it for me while working on it. He said only if there was clearance inside. He looked, at told me there wasn't enough clearance, so if I wanted something done, I would need to go to Winnebago because they make and install all the interior pieces. But interestingly, when we retracted the slide after the repair was made, there was no more drag or strange noises. The back still comes in later than the front, and the service advisor mentioned that he noticed that, but it shouldn't be a problem. So, hopefully, all the problems with that slide are now solved.

One other piece of information I'll share that I picked up while there: HWH has always said that if your jacks are difficult to retract, wipe them off with a microfiber towel and spray them with WD-40, and wipe off the excess. While I was there, the service advisor told another customer that he has found out after working with these parts for 40 years that the best thing to use on the jack pistons is soap and water instead of WD-40. But you have to make sure the pistons are clean before spraying it on. Sounds to me it would be a good idea to use it twice; once to get the dirt off, and again to coat the metal. He agreed and said not to wipe off the second application, and just let it dry. This is something you might want to pass on to other RVers because this is a subject that is always coming up on the boards.

 

[Ray-IN]

John Stephens, Paul Maddox aka AZPete works for HWH, he's normally on irv2.com. He just told me, to sync the hyd cylinders for the room extension; "Run the room out and hold the button for 8-10 seconds, then retract the room" this gets the cylinders back in sync so both ends come in at the same time and even.
Also, don't reverse directions mid-way, only change directions from full-retracted or full-extended.

 

[John Stephens]

John Stephens, Paul Maddox aka AZPete works for HWH, he's normally on irv2.com. He just told me, to sync the hyd cylinders for the room extension; "Run the room out and hold the button for 8-10 seconds, then retract the room" this gets the cylinders back in sync so both ends come in at the same time and even.
Also, don't reverse directions mid-way, only change directions from full-retracted or full-extended.

Thanks, Ray. This is good to know. But I'd like to know why the service advisor didn't tell me this. He noted the ends were not coming back in at the same time, and stated there was nothing wrong with that.

 

[John Canfield]

Normally, I would think a company is playing games when they say they are the only ones who can rebuild a product, and I have had several mechanics tell me there are only two or three seal manufacturers in the entire country, so HWH must be getting their seals from one of them. On the flip side, HWH says they fabricate their own seals, and no one else's will work satisfactorily. Mechanics will claim that is BS, but facts speak for themselves. My mechanic rebuilt these cylinders three times with three different seals, and three out of six cylinders blew within six months. That's not a good record, and leads credence to what HWH claims. But it still bothers me that they won't sell and ship their rebuild kits with seals to other mechanics, ...........................

Your experience with the cylinder rebuilds leads me to postulate that: a) the seal kits your mechanic used weren't compatible with the cylinders or b) your mechanic had the correct seals but there were installation errors that caused failures or c) the seal kit was in fact not correct and the mechanic was going to fail regardless.

Seal kits have a bunch of parts that on first glance look almost the same or are the same. I wonder if the mechanic guessed as to what order all of the parts should be installed. HWH probably doesn't publish a breakdown of the cylinders.

Our experience with HWH factory service was also very good and they would be my first choice for any hydraulic issues. They replaced all four of the jacks on our Horizon in 90 minutes or less and we never had another problem with them.

So what to use to wipe down the jack shafts is still a topic of conversation . I have several pieces of equipment on the ranch that use hydraulics and my routine maintenance for the cylinders is a) nothing. However these are all double acting cylinders (hydraulic extension and retraction) and not spring retracted like the jack cylinders.

On the Horizon I used a food grade silicon spray to wipe the shafts down - that's about as safe as you can get as far as protecting the wiper seal on the cylinder.

 

[John Stephens]

Your experience with the cylinder rebuilds leads me to postulate that: a) the seal kits your mechanic used weren't compatible with the cylinders or b) your mechanic had the correct seals but there were installation errors that caused failures or c) the seal kit was in fact not correct and the mechanic was going to fail regardless.

Seal kits have a bunch of parts that on first glance look almost the same or are the same. I wonder if the mechanic guessed as to what order all of the parts should be installed. HWH probably doesn't publish a breakdown of the cylinders.

Our experience with HWH factory service was also very good and they would be my first choice for any hydraulic issues. They replaced all four of the jacks on our Horizon in 90 minutes or less and we never had another problem with them.

So what to use to wipe down the jack shafts is still a topic of conversation . I have several pieces of equipment on the ranch that use hydraulics and my routine maintenance for the cylinders is a) nothing. However these are all double acting cylinders (hydraulic extension and retraction) and not spring retracted like the jack cylinders.

On the Horizon I used a food grade silicon spray to wipe the shafts down - that's about as safe as you can get as far as protecting the wiper seal on the cylinder.

John,

I used silicone spray on the jack pistons before HWH told me a few years ago to use WD-40. Last Tuesday, I asked the service advisor there why, while he was discussing using soap and water. He said because silicone will solidify on the pistons, and if you take a Scotch Brite pad and soap and water, and scrub the pistons, you will see the silicone ball up on the pad. But when it dries on the piston, you won't see it.

I also asked him about using transmission fluid, since a mechanic I know suggested it. It sounded like a good idea to me since ATF is above the seal as the piston retracts. He said it's not a good idea because it will attract dirt.

Although he didn't say anything about it, I wonder if they now are recommending not using WD-40 because it tends to harm some seals. An owner of a hydraulic shop told a mechanic I know that you won't find WD-40 anywhere in his shop because it destroys the seals he uses.

Soap and water makes sense to me since if you look at your jack pistons close up after they have been extended for a week on dirt or gravel, you will see a lot of grit and dirt on them. Cleaning them off makes sense to keep that dirt from building up on the wiper seals. However, I'm not convinced putting on a second coat and letting it dry is the right thing to do.

Since I am at my first RV park after being at HWH, when I pack up next week, I'll fill a spray bottle with Dawn and water and wipe down the jack pistons with it before retracting them after them being down for a week. I'm guessing my microfiber rag will come up pretty dirty.

 

[John Canfield]

It seems like every five or ten years there's different semi-official recommendations about jack cylinder care. When I used food grade silicone (pure silicon unlike many so called 'silicon sprays') I sprayed it on and then wiped off. Basically it acted like a cleaner, I can't envision how it could build up unless it's sprayed on and left to sit which would not be a good idea. As I recall, silicon spray was the official recommendation many years ago.

My theory is keep the jack shaft clean with anything other than a petroleum product. Dishwashing soap sounds like a good choice as it's very effective at breaking down oil/grease/etc.

 

[Ray-IN]

FWIW; Thursday past i bought a new extend solenoid for my slide room from Stewarts Services/rvlevel.com. When I gasped at the price quoted, the parts & service man said 6 months ago HWH increased pricing by 38%.
That one 2.25" solenoid was $476.06. I forgot to ask if they rebuild these solenoids.

 

[Ray-IN]

Shucks, today I installed the new solenoid and the slide room extended normally; went to retract the room and now that solenoid has failed, according to the service manual tests. So tomorrow I get to buy another new solenoid.

 

[Mark_K5LXP]

Can you tear down the extend solenoid, figure out what failed and use it to replace the retract solenoid?

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

 

[Ray-IN]

Can you tear down the extend solenoid, figure out what failed and use it to replace the retract solenoid?

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

That's my plan for this winter. Working with Andre at Stewarts, we have proved the old retract solenoid is good and the new extend solenoid is good. HWH said the solenoid is not rebuildable, spare parts NLA.
He had me swap the connections to the solenoids and both worked by pushing retract and extended and vica versa.
Now I'm waiting on a new Carling momentary on-off-on switch from Amazon. No-one in the nearby city carried Carling brand switches, not even boating supply stores. (This is a cover all bases move) Carling brand is a waterproof, spark-proof marine switch normally used in the boating industry. It's supposed to arrive Oct. 3, so barring complications I should have it installed that day and do some testing again.

What led us to suspect the Carling switch is low voltage to the solenoids, 10.75VDC from fully-charged start batteries, with a stand-alone charger on them to boot.
I cannot use a different brand because the switch has a mating part with the 6 wires that snaps onto the actual switch, and there is no extra wire to cut it off then use a different brand switch, even if I could find a switch to fit the hole in the dash. Besides that 5 of the wires are yellow, which Winnebago uses for 12V+ wire; so the chance of confusion and miswiring is great.

Andre said since we have followed the HWH service manual testing procedures that pointed to and stated the solenoid was faulty, which it isn't, I'll get my money back when I return the unopened new 2nd solenoid.
Winnebago engineers in their infinite wisdom decided to mount the HWH leveling system motor/pump/ solenoid manifold directly behind the LF wheel. The original HWH system solenoids are not waterproof. I don't know about the new solenoid.

After I get all this solved and working properly again, I will install a mud flap behind the front wheels too. Hopefully the flap will deflect direct water spray away from the solenoids in the future.

To top off an expensive week; Thursday last I opened the MH door and the Kwikee step linkage fell off. The cause was the pot-metal housing for the driveshaft from gear reduction gear to the B linkage broke completely. Got a new updated IMGL gearbox, motor, control box coming Oct. 3 too. That was $179.
Now I get to try my skills at aluminum- brazing pot-metal on the old broken casting; another winter task.

 

[Ray-IN]

To wrap up this thread; today I installed a new Carling on-off-on momentary switch to operate the slide room mechanism. This $18 switch solved the problem, it activates not only the new solenoid, it also operates the old original solenoids.
I failed to take my own advice and replace the cheapest easiest item first. However, the old Carling switch passed (barely) the service manual test according to Stewarts services, it read 10.77VDC at the solenoid wiring plug.
What threw me was, one solenoid was working properly, the other was not working.
Thanks everyone for your attention to my unnecessarily expensive problem.
Oh, new Kwikee step mechanism is already partially installed. I'd have had it done today but broke off 2 small mounting screws when removing the old controller.

 

[John Canfield]

To wrap up this thread; today I installed a new Carling on-off-on momentary switch to operate the slide room mechanism. This $18 switch solved the problem, it activates not only the new solenoid, it also operates the old original solenoids.
I failed to take my own advice and replace the cheapest easiest item first. ..........snip.....

Thanks for the follow up Ray and glad you got it fixed. I've been down so many rabbit holes during troubleshooting both for personal stuff and when I was getting paid to fix things.

 

[ferfer]

I failed to take my own advice and replace the cheapest easiest item first.

Sounds normal to me. That is one good reason to share your troubling shooting efforts with others.

IMHO when a problem occurs ones mind immediately thinks of all things that might be cause and find it difficult to step back to logical troubleshooting. Even with knowledge of system effected one still ranks potential cause and a lowly switch is rated low. My observation is when one has little knowledge of a system, often their research leads to assigning a cause to something not related.

Even if shared trouble shooters do not come up with the cause, their questions/suggestions might help you to rethink and, hopefully, be more logical.

Jennifer