Massive propane regulator recall

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Gary RV_Wizard

Gary RV_Wizard

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Certain Winntec model 6020 two stage propane regulators installed on many recreational vehicles may supply elevated, intermittent or low propane pressure to the appliances. This is causing recalls to be issued for many brands of RV, most (if not all) towables.

Here's the Jayco recall notice: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2021/RCLRPT-21V425-3062.PDF

And here's a list of brands supposedly involved and the NHTSA recall Id for each. I don't know how complete or accurate the list is, so do your own due diligence.

GRAND DESIGN 21V393 55508 UNITS RECALLED
JAYCO 21V425 87649 UNITS RECALLED
KZRV 21V426 100 UNITS RECALLED
KEYSTONE 21V427 80000 UNITS RECALLED
HIGHLAND RIDGE 21V430 3072 UNITS RECALLED
STARCRAFT 21V431 11853 UNITS RECALLED
 
Gary RV_Wizard said:
Certain Winntec model 6020 two stage propane regulators installed on many recreational vehicles may supply elevated, intermittent or low propane pressure to the appliances. This is causing recalls to be issued for many brands of RV, most (if not all) towables.

Here's the Jayco recall notice: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2021/RCLRPT-21V425-3062.PDF

And here's a list of brands supposedly involved and the NHTSA recall Id for each. I don't know how complete or accurate the list is, so do your own due diligence.

GRAND DESIGN 21V393 55508 UNITS RECALLED
JAYCO 21V425 87649 UNITS RECALLED
KZRV 21V426 100 UNITS RECALLED
KEYSTONE 21V427 80000 UNITS RECALLED
HIGHLAND RIDGE 21V430 3072 UNITS RECALLED
STARCRAFT 21V431 11853 UNITS RECALLED
Click to expand...
Yup, i got my notice from Grand Design
 
I am one of the three individuals who first noticed the problem. Approximately 1/3 of the known fire cases are ones I have been involved in personally. I publicly commend the OEM manufacturers for jumping on this (in the interests of Public and Life Safety of their customers) and performing a recall .

Update: NHTSA and Transport Canada were involved in some recent lab testing earlier this month, and I understand they were shocked at the results found. I would not be surprised to see the Winntec 6020 ordered to be recalled by years end by either or both regulatory agencies.

Chris
 
Here is the Jayco remedy letter. On page 4 it has a picture of the regulator and shows how to determine the week/year of manufacture.

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2021/RCRIT-21V425-2996.pdf

There are twelve associated documents related to the recall by Jayco including the one above.

 
Seems most companies have sent out notices. I have a KZ Sportmen and still have not received mine. My TT is one of the ones affected. I have contacted KZ and keep getting a runaround. They tell me they sent the notices out but must be held up by the Postal Service.
They don't have have any replacements and say they are not responsible to replace them since they didn't make the regulators.
My dealer is in the same bind, KZ will not respond to them.
 
The best thing you can probably do is forget about dealing the the RV mfg or the dealer and simply order a regulator, pigtails, etc. and install it and move on. Its not like its that expensive.

THIS regulator and 15 inch pigtails

AND THIS bracket, and THIS cover

I see a lot of the regulators are gone off of Amazon, must be a rush on them. You can do better buying the regulator and pigtails separately but I cannot find them on Amazon. They were there just a few weeks ago..

DO NOT get the Marshall Excelsior MEGR-253 with either an H or an L on the end. The H is a high flow regulator and is olive drab green on the large diaphragm housing, the L is a low flow regulator and is bright blue on the large diaphragm housing. The standard flow (what you want) is bare metal. and is a MEGR-253 (bulk package and Amazon will break it, they did mine) or a MEGR-253P which is a plastic blister pack and ships better. Marshall Excelsior is all USA made.

Fairview regulators are made in Mexico and have a history of being junk, and JR Products is marketing the Fairview regulator. Flame King is mostly China made crap, but I don't know for sure. Not sure who might be making the Camco regulator, though they have a reputation of making or having made for them a lot of products here in the US. There is an Italian made regulator, Cavagna Group that makes an auto switch over regulator, my travel buddy has one on the trailer he bought earlier this year. They are probably OK, I have not heard anything good or bad about them.

Be very aware that some places are still selling the Wintec regulators and pigtails such as HERE and the price is quite tempting but you don't know what you are getting. It is Flame King branded but is clearly the Wintec regulator. The recall requires changing out the pigtails, and I'm not sure why, unless the flow fuses inside the ACME nuts on the end are not shutting off like they should. Camping World is selling THIS regulator made? by Erenco whose low tank indicator is the same style as the Marshall Excelsior but the rest of the regulator is different, HOWEVER, on the Erenco website they show they are marketing THIS Wintec regulator. I also found the Wintec regulator being sold under the Flame King name on Ebay, so BUYER BEWARE!!!!

Charles
 
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Adding pics of the regulator both with and without the plastic cover.

Also, in my previous post I made the statement "The recall requires changing out the pigtails, and I'm not sure why, unless the flow fuses inside the ACME nuts on the end are not shutting off like they should."

I actually found the answer to this question in THIS NHTSA Document, where it says "Certain Winntec model 6020 two stage propane regulators, contain a second stage valve seat that can fail to regulate propane flow and pressure in two different ways. First, the second stage valve seat in the regulator has an inadequate mechanical lock, resulting in seal migration. Once out of position, the valve seal will not properly regulate propane flow and pressure to the recreational vehicle appliances. Second, the rubber hoses (pigtails) that connect the onboard propane cylinders to the regulator release a plasticizer which is a liquid that collects in the body of the regulator. When in contact with the plasticizer, the physical properties of the second stage valve seal can change making it easier to degrade during use and easier to migrate out of position."

This was determined during laboratory examination and analysis of the regulator and hoses by Exponent Engineering, who was hired by Thor to determine the source of the oily substance found in the regulators.

The hoses and regulators were supplied by Winnspec International as a unit.

Curiously, Grand Design in their Safety Recall Repair Instructions state "In instances where pigtails (hose assemblies) are not provided with the replacement regulator, please use the existing hose assemblies. Replace the hoses only if necessary." This is contrary to the NHTSA determination I quoted above and I would think that hoses that might be leeching plasticizers into the gas could affect a new regulator or any other hose or device in the RV system.

The independent Grand Design Owners forum has information that may be helpful also.

Grand Design Propane Regulator recall - Grand Design Owners Forums

A GD owner posted these pics of his refrigerator fire due to the regulator going to way too high a pressure.
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Charles
 

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gwinger said:
Seems most companies have sent out notices. I have a KZ Sportmen and still have not received mine. My TT is one of the ones affected. I have contacted KZ and keep getting a runaround. They tell me they sent the notices out but must be held up by the Postal Service.
They don't have have any replacements and say they are not responsible to replace them since they didn't make the regulators.
My dealer is in the same bind, KZ will not respond to them.
Click to expand...
Gwinger:

Actually, I know KZ had been internally fixing these prior to the recalls in the interest of customer safety and to secure potential units that were to be lab examined with NHTSA and TC agencies in attendance. Each unit that came into the shop for any service, the coach regulator was checked. if it was out of spec it was replaced.
 
CharlesinGA said:
Adding pics of the regulator both with and without the plastic cover.

Also, in my previous post I made the statement "The recall requires changing out the pigtails, and I'm not sure why, unless the flow fuses inside the ACME nuts on the end are not shutting off like they should."

I actually found the answer to this question in THIS NHTSA Document, where it says "Certain Winntec model 6020 two stage propane regulators, contain a second stage valve seat that can fail to regulate propane flow and pressure in two different ways. First, the second stage valve seat in the regulator has an inadequate mechanical lock, resulting in seal migration. Once out of position, the valve seal will not properly regulate propane flow and pressure to the recreational vehicle appliances. Second, the rubber hoses (pigtails) that connect the onboard propane cylinders to the regulator release a plasticizer which is a liquid that collects in the body of the regulator. When in contact with the plasticizer, the physical properties of the second stage valve seal can change making it easier to degrade during use and easier to migrate out of position."

This was determined during laboratory examination and analysis of the regulator and hoses by Exponent Engineering, who was hired by Thor to determine the source of the oily substance found in the regulators.

The hoses and regulators were supplied by Winnspec International as a unit.

Curiously, Grand Design in their Safety Recall Repair Instructions state "In instances where pigtails (hose assemblies) are not provided with the replacement regulator, please use the existing hose assemblies. Replace the hoses only if necessary." This is contrary to the NHTSA determination I quoted above and I would think that hoses that might be leeching plasticizers into the gas could affect a new regulator or any other hose or device in the RV system.

The independent Grand Design Owners forum has information that may be helpful also.

Grand Design Propane Regulator recall - Grand Design Owners Forums

A GD owner posted these pics of his refrigerator fire due to the regulator going to way too high a pressure.
fetch

fetch

fetch


Charles
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As I am the investigator that saw these first and notified everyone about them (insurance/mfg/legal/RV industry), I have a bit more knowledge on this. The issue they are claiming is that the propane is interacting with the VINYL hose causing a polymer to extract from the hose while in use, causing a buildup in the first stage, ultimately causing potential 1st stage diaphragm failure. This allows high pressure throughout the system. Avg failure supply pressure is in the 37-45 inches water column (3-4 times normal pressure), but we have more than a few cases where the system pressure was in the teens or higher PSI.
 
Here is a sample photo explanation of what happens when a refrigerator sees 17.5PSI supply pressure. Fire rolls out every opening of the burner box and ignites combustibles around it.
 

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Chris, thank you for your insight into this.

I prefer metal braided, teflon line hoses. From the descriptions in the NHTSA document it was clear that the hose was inferior and should never have been used. From the research I have done, Winnspec International Corp is a marketing company that buys and re-markets many items. I did find that Winnspec (a Taiwan based company) was having business dealings with Flex Tech Hose Tubing LLC, a division of Energo Group LLC and the picture (to me at least) is that Winnspec acquired the regulators from Chen Fong and then the hoses were acquired from Flex Tech Hose Tubing (who is merely buying them from various companies in China) and the regulators with hoses attached were being marketed to the various RV manufacturers. Energo was also marketing this regulator under their name and visually, the Flame King regulator is the same unit. I found it interesting that many people on the Grand Design forum went out and purchased the Flame King units and installed them in order to remove the recalled Winntec regulators. It looks to me like they went from the frying pan to the fire doing this.

One person on the GD forum stated "I contacted Grand Design to ask which regulators we can and cant use and if we can take this repair to anyone else to do the recall if we can find a regulator. the answer i got back is that we can use any regulator except, winntec, mr heater and enerco." I find it interesting GD did not mention the Flame King unit, possibly they are not aware of it. I also found it interesting that GD said to reuse the pigtails if none were available, given that much of the problem was with the hoses this is a bad recommendation.

One person on the GD forum discussion about this has a 2020 Reflection and found it had an affected regulator installed on it, and even posted a pic of it, yet the Reflection models are not included in the GD recall. There are gonna be more fires before this is over.

The other problem is that you have the situation that RV's such as truck campers are not a NHTSA regulated RV since it is not a vehicle and how many of them don't know and haven't received recall notices?

Its a mess........... I'm glad I prefer USA made stuff and replaced the regulator on my 2008 trailer (just out of caution due to age) with a Marshall Excelsior regulator (which is what it had to begin with).

Charles
 
More corrections to my Post #10.

CharlesinGA said:
DO NOT get the Marshall Excelsior MEGR-253 with either an H or an L on the end. The H is a high flow regulator and is olive drab green on the large diaphragm housing, the L is a low flow regulator and is bright blue on the large diaphragm housing. The standard flow (what you want) is bare metal. and is a MEGR-253 (bulk package and Amazon will break it, they did mine) or a MEGR-253P which is a plastic blister pack and ships better. Marshall Excelsior is all USA made.

Fairview regulators are made in Mexico and have a history of being junk, and JR Products is marketing the Fairview regulator. Flame King is mostly China made crap, but I don't know for sure. Not sure who might be making the Camco regulator, though they have a reputation of making or having made for them a lot of products here in the US. There is an Italian made regulator, Cavagna Group that makes an auto switch over regulator, my travel buddy has one on the trailer he bought earlier this year. They are probably OK, I have not heard anything good or bad about them.

Charles
Click to expand...
The use of the different Marshall Excelsior regulators is dependent on your max possible BTU demand in your RV and the average demand you place on it.

Your furnace is one of the largest variables, as they can vary from about 20K to 35K BTU/hr. The stove burners are very minor at about 6500 BTU/hr per burner at max. and possibly as much as 9000 BTU/hr for a larger main burner. The fridge is almost not worth talking about as it will only consume about 1500 BTU/hr. The water heater depending on size or brand will be 8000 to 10000 BTU/hr when running. If you have a "instant" water heater, now you are talking some serious BTU's, something on the order of 50K BTU for the time it is operating. Add to that grills, griddles, fire pits and portable generators (generators require about 20K BTU/hr per 1000 watts) that you can plug into your outside LP fitting and usage can vary wildly but since you are not going to be operating all of the appliances at once, you don't need to have a regulator to max out your possible total demand. Most of us are not hauling a 500 gallon LP tank behind our RV!

The flow specs for the Marshall Excelsior regulators are as follows.
MEGR-253L Low flow, Blue 175000 BTU on the primary tank, 100000 BTU on the secondary tank.
MEGR-253 Standard flow, bare metal finish, 225000 BTU on primary and 150000 on secondary.
MEGR-253H High flow, OD green finish, 350000 BTU primary and 200000 BTU secondary.

Primary tank is the one the selector handle is pointing at, while secondary is the other tank in use after an auto switch over. If it does an auto switch over, and you move the lever to the in use tank, that tank becomes primary and the flow rate increases.

Note that the tank connectors with the GREEN ACME nuts have flow limiters in them that limit to about 200000 BTU/hr. Pigtails with RED ACME nuts have flow limiters of 400000 BTU/hr

I'm going to put in a little plug for the Marshall Excelsior 1/4 inch pigtail hoses. Quoting from the catalog........ "Flexible thermoplastic UL and CGA approved hose. These hoses are rated up to 350 psig working pressure with a 400 pound pull test rating. Each hose comes with two ends and fully crimped brass ferrules." ..... "MEC non-leaching hoses are made with a specially formulated “oil free” hose which is designed to resist chemical contaminants within some LP Gas that can cause standard hose to break down and clog regulators or appliances"

Link to the very informative MEC 2021 RV and Camping LP catalog

Some numbers to know, a gallon of propane is about 92K BTU. A 20 lb propane tank, full holds 4.6 gallons, and a 30 lb tank holds 7.1 gallons. The 20 lb tanks you exchange at the stores (Blue Rhino for instance) are only 3/4 full, or about 3.45 gallons.

The next correction is about the Flame King regulators. They are clearly identical to the Winntec/Enerco/etc and I personally would not want to use one of them

The last correction is about the Cavagna Group regulators. I have a friend with one, it works well, has a clearly visible green/red change over indicator and manual knob. They are NOT Italian made. The company is based in Italy but none of their products are made there. From my research on their web site, the RV type regulators are most likely made in the plant in China. (they have a map of locations and a description of what is made or done at each location, they are a world wide company.)

I hope this fixes all of the errors I have made and helps someone understand the issues with these LP regulators.

Charles
 
It seems like everyone is out of the Marshall Excelsiors.
Who else makes good ones?
 
Correction: in post #17 above the link I posted is to the ME general catalog and not the camp/RV catalog. Here is the link to the Camp/RV catalog which is a very informative catalog.

Marshall Excelsior Camp and RV catalog

In addition to the Marshall Excelsior, There is Fairview, which is now manufactured in a plant in Mexico. A third choice, I mentioned above is the Cavagna Group. Theirs is apparently made in a plant in China, however they are apparently a well designed and manufactured product. You will find the Fairview unit branded under other names, so its more of knowing what they LOOK like to identify the various manufacturers vs re-marketers.

Fairview regulators are easily identified by the change over lever on the top with a vertical shaft, and the round indicator window on the front. Also note the extremely thin connection between the upper and lower parts of the regulator.
fv-gr-9984.jpg-500x500.jpg


The Cavagna regulator is very easy to spot due to the bulbous change over knob on the front top that has windows in it for the red/green indicator.

61qu6WT3GNL._SL1000_.jpg


Camco is selling a regulator that I am yet to identify the manufacturer of. It has a small change over window in the front of the knob, but the design of it is like no other that I have found.

61wesZXajbL._AC_SL1000_.jpg


When buying a new regulator, note that the threads in the aluminum housing are ¼ MNPT (Male National Pipe Thread) and that the brass fittings (if any) are screwed into that and the brass has ¼ Male Inverted Flare. You can buy the pigtail hoses with either type of ends, so you need pigtails that match the regulator. Personally I prefer the stainless braided pigtail hoses, and the Marshall Excelsior hoses are (including the hose material itself) made in the USA.

Flow rates for the regulators are all similar except for the Marshall Excelsior High flow and Lo flow units. The biggest variable in an RV as far as flow demand is the furnace and that is from about 20K BTU up to 35k BTU. Stoves, ovens, and tank water heaters are all of similar BTU demand, no matter whether a Casita or a gi-normus 5th wheel. Other large demands you may place on the regulator would be a propane fire pit that is supplied by the outside LP connector on your RV. I bought a Marshall Excelsior High flow unit thinking it would be better since I have a ONAN 2500 generator built into the trailer, only to discover that the generator's demand is not that great. See my post #17 above for a little more detail on various appliances and their BTU consumption.

Hope this helps somewhat.

Charles
 
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